Let us take a stroll down Carlyle road (One Year Anniversary)

[X66]

So yesterday was the one year anniversary over the firing of Randy Carlyle, the worst coach the Leafs employed in decades.

I made a thread a few weeks before his firing and highlighted these key points

_
Reasons Carlyle needs to go

- Randy Carlyle has coached the Leafs to two consecutive franchise worst shots for/against differential. Leafs were out shot by an average of 6 shots during the lockout year and 8 shots during last season. There have been far worse assembled NHL rosters than those 2 teams, yet those teams did not play nearly as putrid.

- Randy Carlyle has coached teams to terrible Fenwick and Corsi stats for the last half decade, for all the advanced stats geeks like myself, this is important. Once again, this is a sample of two teams. Players such as Nikolai Kulemin, Mikhail Grabovski and Clarke MacArthur that were good to excellent possession players became terrible under Carlyle. Once those players were jettisoned from the team(with some parting words from Grabovski and MacArthur), they once again regained their strong possession play.

- Randy Carlyle does not utilize his full roster. Look around at every single successful NHL team, they all have important minutes allocated to their 4th line. Playing players 5 minutes a game is not the way the contemporary game is being played. The season is a marathon, not a sprint and that is something Carlyle still does not understand. This trend has not changed during this current season either, despite General Manager Dave Nonis urging the team during the off-season to utilize a full roster.

That list should be enough to even make ECHL teams think twice about hiring Carlyle as a coach.
_

Now looking back, can we finally all agree that he was horrendous?

Each one of these points has been corrected so far:

1)Leafs no longer own embarrassing shots for/against numbers. The Leafs are also not badly out chanced every game.

2)Leafs possession stat has increased nearly 5%, which is a pretty significant jump. Leafs sit at around 50% possession right now, which is a far cry from where it ever was under Carlyle. It still needs to improve to get into that elite group, but when you consider the majority of this teams future is not on this roster, it's impressive to see what Babcock has done with the line-up.

3)Gone are the days of the useless goons occupying a roster spot. We have a coach now that actually plays the entire roster, what a shocker. Carlyle's primitive 3 line hockey was one of the biggest reason this team was getting dominated and losing battles to fatigue so often. Actually playing your fourth line is huge, every modern team does...

NOW, you're going to have people come in here and say "Look at the Leafs record this year". I'm a fan that doesn't care about the record this year because I actually want to see a product that is setting things up for the future. Leafs can finish dead last and if they're playing the way they are, I'd say it was a great success(and that top 4 pick helps too!).

The reason for that is, Carlyle made this team un-watchable to me. How fun is it to watch your team get dominated year after year, the majority of the games and against all team levels. Even games where the Leafs won on the back of Reimer and Bernier weren't enjoyable.

This product is actually hockey, there is a strategy that involves plays in all 3 zones, when did you ever see that with Carlyle?

Under Carlyle you had NHL players say that the Leafs were by far the easiest team to play against. Now you have players and coaches saying they resemble the Red Wings in style.

A lot can happen and the Leafs can go down the drain from this day on, but this isn't a pump Babcock's tire thread, but more so a thank GOD Carlyle is gone thread.

May Carlyle bless a rival team with a hiring.

Click to read more...

 

[Daisy Jane]

this was good I made a thread on it as well here
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2008205

 

[Suntouchable13]

He is never getting hired anywhere. I thought he was a problem, but turns out he was a much bigger problem than I thought.

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

wasn't a good coach. glad he's gone.

 

[Purity*]

Carlyle was a total idiot.

No idea why people defended him.

 

[Guy Boucher]

Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

 

[zeke]

He had a place in the game once, when tactics were more rudimentary and his whipcracking style could motivate for a bit, but he was grossly incompetent in today's game. There is likely no clearer more statistically backed up example of a coach who was able to make players look significantly worse than they were and to steadily destroy a team's ability to win over time, on multiple teams.

As good as babcock is, there's plenty of good coaches around. But coaches as bad as Randy are pretty much nonexistent at this point.

 

[Tak7]

Have to say - I've never understand the obsession of this fanbase to consistently rip people who are no longer apart of this organzation.

He came, did the best he could, wasn't good enough, and now he's not here anymore.

Appreciate the effort he put in, and acknowledge that he wasn't the right man. That's it.

Why are we ripping Randy, though?

He didn't insult us as fans. He didn't half-ass his job while he was here.

He changed himself a lot to try and assimilate into this market too.

I hate that Leafs fans just constantly cut people down who are no longer linked to the organization.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Carlyle was a total idiot.

No idea why people defended him.

Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

i would argue it was both. (shrug) I defended Randy and I can admit i was wrong and he had his issues but he still had to spraypaint on the ice where the players had to go to play hockey. and I don't think his system could/should have been that difficult.

 

[Tak7]

Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

You've made that determination based on a 27th placed team that ranks 30th in regulation wins?

 

[X66]

Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

And this is exactly what it is.

People gave the players a lot of flack on bailing on the team, but can you imagine working for someone/following their instructions for multiple years and each time it yields the same results I.E getting dominated the entire game etc.

I'd give up as well.

My personal favourite argument though was "They played bad under Horachek as well". For starters, Horachek should never be a benchmark for anything; secondly, the team actually did play surprisingly better in terms of limiting scoring chances after Horachek took over, they just couldn't score.

 

[Shimso]

It's only been a year?! It feels like it has been much, much longer than that.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Have to say - I've never understand the obsession of this fanbase to consistently rip people who are no longer apart of this organzation.

He came, did the best he could, wasn't good enough, and now he's not here anymore.

Appreciate the effort he put in, and acknowledge that he wasn't the right man. That's it.

Why are we ripping Randy, though?

He didn't insult us as fans. He didn't half-ass his job while he was here.

He changed himself a lot to try and assimilate into this market too.

I hate that Leafs fans just constantly cut people down who are no longer linked to the organization.

Yes, but he is going to have no problems ripping the organization once they stop paying him. I think we should rip him as much as we want.

 

[Trapper]

i would argue it was both. (shrug) I defended Randy and I can admit i was wrong and he had his issues but he still had to spraypaint on the ice where the players had to go to play hockey. and I don't think his system could/should have been that difficult.

If Carlyle wants to return to coaching he will have to completely re-invent himself.
Gone are the Colton Orr/McLaren days.
Gone are the top 6/bottom 6 mentality. Gone are the one trick players.
You will not succeed with one dimensional players in any aspect.

If he can change (and a man must change and adapt) he can give himself a chance.

 

[zeke]

Have to say - I've never understand the obsession of this fanbase to consistently rip people who are no longer apart of this organzation.

He came, did the best he could, wasn't good enough, and now he's not here anymore.

Appreciate the effort he put in, and acknowledge that he wasn't the right man. That's it.

Why are we ripping Randy, though?

He didn't insult us as fans. He didn't half-ass his job while he was here.

He changed himself a lot to try and assimilate into this market too.

I hate that Leafs fans just constantly cut people down who are no longer linked to the organization.

meh, randy had little problems trashing his players or letting them be trashed.

 

[Guy Boucher]

You've made that determination based on a 27th placed team that ranks 30th in regulation wins?

You mean a team with even goal differential, positive score-adjusted corsi, good special teams and on pace for more points than the best Carlyle led team? And all with less talent?

Yes, on that basis I've made this determination.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

People still want many of the core jettisoned. I'm sure it was just due to last year. One Coach had a poor system, the next coach was like a supply teacher.

 

[X66]

Another funny thing is, both coaches' records were a facade.

Everyone can easily argue that Carlyle coached teams that were sitting in playoff spots were playing much worse than what their record indicated, and I mean MUCH worse.

I can argue that the Leafs this season have played even better than their record suggests.

 

[Koolboss]

I was very close to cutting the leafs for good thanks to Randy C.

Glad he is gone, if you read all my post for the past 3-4 years its all about our previous two coaches, Randy and Ronny and how much I hated their coaching style.

Make me puke every time i remember those dark days

 

[Trapper]

I was very close to cutting the leafs for good thanks to Randy C.

Glad he is gone, if you read all my post for the past 3-4 years its all about our previous two coaches, Randy and Ronny and how much I hated their coaching style.

Make me puke every time i remember those dark days

Coaches are put in place by management. Go above them to see why I was fed up with the Leafs.
How the team was built and pieces acquired.

 

[Menzinger]

He had a place in the game once, when tactics were more rudimentary and his whipcracking style could motivate for a bit, but he was grossly incompetent in today's game. There is likely no clearer more statistically backed up example of a coach who was able to make players look significantly worse than they were and to steadily destroy a team's ability to win over time, on multiple teams.

As good as babcock is, there's plenty of good coaches around. But coaches as bad as Randy are pretty much nonexistent at this point.

Yep - good coaches (like Babcock) learn to adapt and change their game plan. Things that worked a decade ago may not be relevant today.

Carlyle's vision of the game is of a bygone era, his most repeated phrase to the media throughout the year was "I don't know" - he either couldn't understand the problem that faced the team, or just couldn't offer any solution. These issues became amplified by his lack of change at all - didn't change players Icetime, didn't break up lines that weren't working, ect.

His firing was a happy day for the organization's future.

 

[Guy Boucher]

Yep - good coaches (like Babcock) learn to adapt and change their game plan. Things that worked a decade ago may not be relevant today.

Carlyle's vision of the game is of a bygone era, his most repeated phrase to the media throughout the year was "I don't know" - he either couldn't understand the problem that faced the team, or just couldn't offer any solution. These issues became amplified by his lack of change at all - didn't change players Icetime, didn't break up lines that weren't working, ect.

His firing was a happy day for the organization's future.

I didn't watch the whole HBO series before the Winter Classic but I remember one line from Babcock that really stuck with me when he said "What worked last year in the NHL isn't going to work this year".

Teams are constantly adjusting and enhancing their systems every single year, and if you don't evolve as well you'll get left behind just like Randy.

 

[X66]

I didn't watch the whole HBO series before the Winter Classic but I remember one line from Babcock that really stuck with me when he said "What worked last year in the NHL isn't going to work this year".

Teams are constantly adjusting and enhancing their systems every single year, and if you don't evolve as well you'll get left behind just like Randy.

yeah but Randy Carlyle has a Stanley Cup, so what do you know?

(Defending Carlyle Argument #8)

 

[Jjmac]

Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

I'll never understand the hate for Carlyle. I get that some people overate certain stats. And maybe don't understand the game as well but he is a good coach and we know it is more on the players than the coach.
If we look back to last year. RC was fired while in a playoff spot, and being a top 3 scoring team in the league. Horacek took over and the team imploded , playing far worse even though they had a better cf%. They did this at the expense of scoring.
Babcock currently has a record slightly worse than RC's overall record with a similar team.
No one is saying "its not the coach, its the players" anymore because this is an obvious statement that most people have come around to.
Although I'd rather have Babcock, I think it's pretty clear at this point that the hate for Carlyle was overblown and based on certain advanced stats that have since been shown to be not as reliable as once seen (corsi)

 

[X66]

I'll never understand the hate for Carlyle. I get that some people overate certain stats. And maybe don't understand the game as well but he is a good coach and we know it is more on the players than the coach.
If we look back to last year. RC was fired while in a playoff spot, and being a top 3 scoring team in the league. Horacek took over and the team imploded , playing far worse even though they had a better cf%. They did this at the expense of scoring.
Babcock currently has a record slightly worse than RC's overall record with a similar team.

See, it always happens.

My personal favourite argument though was "They played bad under Horachek as well". For starters, Horachek should never be a benchmark for anything; secondly, the team actually did play surprisingly better in terms of limiting scoring chances after Horachek took over, they just couldn't score.