Le Retour des Nordiques Partie XIII: L'espoir renait

[Fugu]

The problem with four team expansion is that it eliminates every landing spot, hard or soft, for the teams that are going to need to relocate. And at least one will have to, let's be honest. Maybe more.

Agreed.

Even if the league doesn't need to relocate a team, it's useful for the league to be able to threaten relocation in negotiating with local communities.

Yes, first points that came to my mind when the idea of four expansion teams was first suggested (leaked?).


The only possible remaining option would be Portland, since an NHL-ready arena exists and the owner would do it-- but for a bargain price.

If we believe one team in each conference is in very dire straits, that at least doesn't throw alignment out of whack if a Western Conference team needs to move.

 

[Mightygoose]

Yes, first points that came to my mind when the idea of four expansion teams was first suggested (leaked?).


The only possible remaining option would be Portland, since an NHL-ready arena exists and the owner would do it-- but for a bargain price.

If we believe one team in each conference is in very dire straits, that at least doesn't throw alignment out of whack if a Western Conference team needs to move.

I agree Portland would work at the right price.

Though the 4 team rumour did state Toronto/GTA 2 as the 4th locale.

With Bell and Tananbaum closing in (hopefully) on taking on the Argos, I still wonder if that is the first shoe to drop in the speculated Rogers/Bell split.

Timing seems to work

 

[Fugu]

I agree Portland would work at the right price.

Though the 4 team rumour did state Toronto/GTA 2 as the 4th locale.

With Bell and Tananbaum closing in (hopefully) on taking on the Argos, I still wonder if that is the first shoe to drop in the speculated Rogers/Bell split.

Timing seems to work

I don't put a lot of stock into this talk because, in order for this almost conspiratorial concept to work, many things need to happen. It's complexity alone is what makes me believe it's not the most likely scenario, if it's a realistic scenario at all.

 

[Wolf357]

Watching the 1984 Adams division final between Quebec and Montreal on ESPN Classic....
Wow...what a game/Series...insanity really.
Need Quebec back...love to see a Nordique/Habs game again.

 

[MiamiHockey]

Agreed.

Even if the league doesn't need to relocate a team, it's useful for the league to be able to threaten relocation in negotiating with local communities.

It's not useful - it's pretty much essential, and very central to the NHL's Modus Operandi. Negotiating 101 - you need to be willing to walk away, and in order to do that you need to have a viable alternative. That is precisely why the NHL is in no hurry to move a team to Quebec - the new Colisee gives them incredible leverage over arenas in their current locations ... it's almost worth as much to merely be available as it would be to put an expansion team in there, because it gives them so much leverage.

 

[Brodie]

I think the NHL has more options than people think, just very few in the east due to over saturation.

The west is actually full of potential markets that MIGHT be amiable to striking a lease deal for a hockey team... Houston and Portland have been mentioned but there's also Milwaukee, Kansas City and Sacramento sitting out there. The fact that it's relocation means that you can ignore the lack of interested ownership... in fact, I'd be willing to bet on KC as a Coyotes destination when you do the math and consider how the divisions will break down when it's 16 vs 16. San Antonio could likely support another team, too, but the Spurs would probably have to be involved.

Either way, a team in Quebec AND Toronto/Hamilton leaves very little room for Florida to maneuver if need be. There's uhhh Cleveland, maybe? Atlanta part 3?

 

[Montrealer]

I think the NHL has more options than people think, just very few in the east due to over saturation.

The west is actually full of potential markets that MIGHT be amiable to striking a lease deal for a hockey team... Houston and Portland have been mentioned but there's also Milwaukee, Kansas City and Sacramento sitting out there. The fact that it's relocation means that you can ignore the lack of interested ownership... in fact, I'd be willing to bet on KC as a Coyotes destination when you do the math and consider how the divisions will break down when it's 16 vs 16. San Antonio could likely support another team, too, but the Spurs would probably have to be involved.

Either way, a team in Quebec AND Toronto/Hamilton leaves very little room for Florida to maneuver if need be. There's uhhh Cleveland, maybe? Atlanta part 3?

Hartford part 2? There's a pipe dream! Baltimore? Milwaukee?

 

[powerstuck]

The problem with four team expansion is that it eliminates every landing spot, hard or soft, for the teams that are going to need to relocate. And at least one will have to, let's be honest. Maybe more.

Agreed.

Even if the league doesn't need to relocate a team, it's useful for the league to be able to threaten relocation in negotiating with local communities.

I agree with both of you guys. But for once I would like NHL to take another market than Quebec and use it as bait and negotiation tactics.

 

[MiamiHockey]

I agree with both of you guys. But for once I would like NHL to take another market than Quebec and use it as bait and negotiation tactics.

Kansas City was thrown around for a short period.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

having 14 teams in west vs 16 in east is one of the dumbest thing in nhl. it reminds me of the NL central with 6 teams and AL west with 4 teams years ago... how can you make divisions with 17 teams... cant be fair for playoffs %, but if you go with 2 conferences the odds are a little bit closer 8/17 vs 8/16.

That wasn't dumb, that was necessary. Now Baseball is stuck with crappy ass interleague play all season.

 

[AllezlesBleus]

From Elliot Firedman's latest 30 thoughts that you can find here http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-how-playoffs-affect-draft-selection/:

18. A couple of months ago, I speculated on a Las Vegas expansion team being announced at the NHL Awards. That idea was kiboshed.

“Not the timetable,†said one source. What we’re more likely to see is the creation of a formal expansion process. It’s no surprise that various Seattle entities are making moves to get ready, as reported by ESPN’s Craig Custance.

Glenn Healy mentioned Ray Bartoszek’s interest back at the 2013 Stanley Cup Final, and added Jeremy Roenick was linked to a hockey operations position. You know Quebec City is going to be ready.

 

[Ugmo]

I think the NHL has more options than people think, just very few in the east due to over saturation.

The west is actually full of potential markets that MIGHT be amiable to striking a lease deal for a hockey team... Houston and Portland have been mentioned but there's also Milwaukee, Kansas City and Sacramento sitting out there. The fact that it's relocation means that you can ignore the lack of interested ownership... in fact, I'd be willing to bet on KC as a Coyotes destination when you do the math and consider how the divisions will break down when it's 16 vs 16. San Antonio could likely support another team, too, but the Spurs would probably have to be involved.

Either way, a team in Quebec AND Toronto/Hamilton leaves very little room for Florida to maneuver if need be. There's uhhh Cleveland, maybe? Atlanta part 3?

Kansas City literally doesn't want a hockey team. Their arena is already profitable and they don't want to have to block off over 40 dates a year for an anchor tenant.

No one in any of those other markets except for Portland has expressed the slightest interest in an NHL team. A viable market has to have at least a suitable arena and some interest in a team. That rules out all but a couple of cities.

 

[Brodie]

I don't actually think Barroway is interested in selling the Coyotes. I think he'd want to move them himself, so expressions of interest are irrelevant.

This meme of KC being anti-tenant is based on nothing, they certainly weren't anti-NHL when they were in bed with Boots or angling for the Pens.

 

[Killion]

This meme of KC being anti-tenant is based on nothing, they certainly weren't anti-NHL when they were in bed with Boots or angling for the Pens.

That was more a function of AEG than any rolling out of a super plush red carpet by KC Brodie. Back then as well a different municipal administration, the current Mayor (since 2011) Sylvester Sly James (who btw circa 65-70 was Lead Singer of the Amelia Earhart Memorial Flying Band which became Manchester Trafficway, opened for Jefferson Airplane etc... who then joined the Marines, winding up as a Military Policeman... kinda like Nicholson in The Last Detail I suppose?... anyhoo, very eclectic individual) has stated publicly on numerous occasions "no sweetheart leases, no subsidies, team wants to take up residency no problem, great... and they'd better be winners" (sic) or words to that affect. The kind of words that would send a bead of cold sweat down the back of any NBA let alone NHL owner.

 

[Melrose Munch]

That was more a function of AEG than any rolling out of a super plush red carpet by KC Brodie. Back then as well a different municipal administration, the current Mayor (since 2011) Sylvester Sly James (who btw circa 65-70 was Lead Singer of the Amelia Earhart Memorial Flying Band which became Manchester Trafficway, opened for Jefferson Airplane etc... who then joined the Marines, winding up as a Military Policeman... kinda like Nicholson in The Last Detail I suppose?... anyhoo, very eclectic individual) has stated publicly on numerous occasions "no sweetheart leases, no subsidies, team wants to take up residency no problem, great... and they'd better be winners" (sic) or words to that affect. The kind of words that would send a bead of cold sweat down the back of any NBA let alone NHL owner.

Kil, this is getting close to 1000 posts.

 

[Killion]

Kil, this is getting close to 1000 posts.

59 to go MM.... you keeping count?

 

[Melrose Munch]

59 to go MM.... you keeping count?

maybe I just saw the seattle, split, that's why.

 

[madhi19]

59 to go MM.... you keeping count?

We need a new title soon. How about Le Retour des Nordiques Partie XIV: Minuit Moins Quart.

Look like it triple shift at the new Arena lately.
rtsp://streamer.donneesquebec.org:1935/vdqcam10/vdqcam10.stream

 

[WingsFan95]

For every outside location that gets brought up, there's a serious issue with an existing team.

Ticket prices are not the end all be all they use to be but they're still quite relevant. Several teams in the league are practically giving away regular season tickets. So how does an outside town work after the initial luster of pro sports goes away?

Portland might seem like a nice idea but one needs to look at the Trail Blazers. They're the hottest ticket in town and their team value is 12th out of 30 teams. That's great, now how do you feel a hockey team playing the same time will rank? If you think Top 20, you're insane. The Blazers have been the only major pro team in the city for decades and have a deep history. A hockey team would be lucky to have a third of the success, especially after a 5 year period where you have initial fan excitement. Portland once had an NLL team (Lacrosse), which actually made the Championship in its 3rd season. They played another season actually improving their record and folded afterwards.

Now sure, you could just laugh at the NLL, currently it only costs 3 million to buy into via expansion, however that's kinda my point. Lacrosse is quite similar to hockey, indeed it's the closest major sport to it by a good margin. The prices to go to games outside of Toronto are dirt cheap, and yet a team in a city with few options folded after just 4 seasons.

I doubt Portland would be much of an opportunity, albeit better than Glendale.

I think anywhere from 2-6 teams could relocate in the next 10-15 seasons. Expansion in this context seems highly unproductive.

The NHL expanded by 5 teams from 91-93. We also saw 4 teams relocate from 93-97. Is the same things going to happen now?

It seems unlikely to me for the following reasons:

1. NHL is much more expensive, and there's a limit to how much you can expand with a growing price for product.

2. Winnipeg has gotten a team back and Quebec is expected to follow. While Atlanta lost a team for the 2nd time. It seems unlikely that there could be anywhere close to 9 teams able to take in an NHL team.

I DO however think expansion will happen due to high expectations and extending tv contracts. I think the expansion will be just 2 teams while at least 3 will relocate. In the next 10-15 years. Historically, the league has been extremely quiet from 2001-present, with just the Thrashers moving to Winnipeg. This now 15 seasons of relative peace is set to expire in a big way in the next 15 seasons.

 

[rojac]

For every outside location that gets brought up, there's a serious issue with an existing team.

Ticket prices are not the end all be all they use to be but they're still quite relevant. Several teams in the league are practically giving away regular season tickets. So how does an outside town work after the initial luster of pro sports goes away?

Portland might seem like a nice idea but one needs to look at the Trail Blazers. They're the hottest ticket in town and their team value is 12th out of 30 teams. That's great, now how do you feel a hockey team playing the same time will rank? If you think Top 20, you're insane. The Blazers have been the only major pro team in the city for decades and have a deep history. A hockey team would be lucky to have a third of the success, especially after a 5 year period where you have initial fan excitement. Portland once had an NLL team (Lacrosse), which actually made the Championship in its 3rd season. They played another season actually improving their record and folded afterwards.

Now sure, you could just laugh at the NLL, currently it only costs 3 million to buy into via expansion, however that's kinda my point. Lacrosse is quite similar to hockey, indeed it's the closest major sport to it by a good margin. The prices to go to games outside of Toronto are dirt cheap, and yet a team in a city with few options folded after just 4 seasons.

I doubt Portland would be much of an opportunity, albeit better than Glendale.

I think anywhere from 2-6 teams could relocate in the next 10-15 seasons. Expansion in this context seems highly unproductive.

The NHL expanded by 5 teams from 91-93. We also saw 4 teams relocate from 93-97. Is the same things going to happen now?

It seems unlikely to me for the following reasons:

1. NHL is much more expensive, and there's a limit to how much you can expand with a growing price for product.

2. Winnipeg has gotten a team back and Quebec is expected to follow. While Atlanta lost a team for the 2nd time. It seems unlikely that there could be anywhere close to 9 teams able to take in an NHL team.

I DO however think expansion will happen due to high expectations and extending tv contracts. I think the expansion will be just 2 teams while at least 3 will relocate. In the next 10-15 years. Historically, the league has been extremely quiet from 2001-present, with just the Thrashers moving to Winnipeg. This now 15 seasons of relative peace is set to expire in a big way in the next 15 seasons.

I've got to admit I find it hard to take seriously any post that compares the NHL to the NLL and calls lacrosse a major sport.

 

[TheLegend]

59 to go MM.... you keeping count?

If we're counting.... what's the over/under on "relocating the Coyotes" posts?

 

[King_Stannis]

I've got to admit I find it hard to take seriously any post that compares the NHL to the NLL and calls lacrosse a major sport.

I agree. In the US Lacrosse has zero professional exposure. Very popular high school sport but I can't think of one person I've ever met who talked about a lacrosse game on TV.

 

[powerstuck]

That was more a function of AEG than any rolling out of a super plush red carpet by KC Brodie. Back then as well a different municipal administration, the current Mayor (since 2011) Sylvester Sly James (who btw circa 65-70 was Lead Singer of the Amelia Earhart Memorial Flying Band which became Manchester Trafficway, opened for Jefferson Airplane etc... who then joined the Marines, winding up as a Military Policeman... kinda like Nicholson in The Last Detail I suppose?... anyhoo, very eclectic individual) has stated publicly on numerous occasions "no sweetheart leases, no subsidies, team wants to take up residency no problem, great... and they'd better be winners" (sic) or words to that affect. The kind of words that would send a bead of cold sweat down the back of any NBA let alone NHL owner.

Cultural and historical lessons I get daily on HF !

Thanks Killion.

 

[Ugmo]

Portland might seem like a nice idea but one needs to look at the Trail Blazers. They're the hottest ticket in town and their team value is 12th out of 30 teams. That's great, now how do you feel a hockey team playing the same time will rank? If you think Top 20, you're insane. The Blazers have been the only major pro team in the city for decades and have a deep history. A hockey team would be lucky to have a third of the success, especially after a 5 year period where you have initial fan excitement. Portland once had an NLL team (Lacrosse), which actually made the Championship in its 3rd season. They played another season actually improving their record and folded afterwards.

Now sure, you could just laugh at the NLL, currently it only costs 3 million to buy into via expansion, however that's kinda my point. Lacrosse is quite similar to hockey, indeed it's the closest major sport to it by a good margin. The prices to go to games outside of Toronto are dirt cheap, and yet a team in a city with few options folded after just 4 seasons.

I doubt Portland would be much of an opportunity, albeit better than Glendale.

You're forgetting another team in Portland that averages over 21K and has sold out every game for years.

 

[Shawa666]

You're forgetting another team in Portland that averages over 21K and has sold out every game for years.

The WHL Winterhawks? 7300 per hockeydb in 13-14
If your talking about the Timbers, you're right, but it's not in the price range you would expect from a NHL team.