LD Aron Kiviharju - IFK Helsinki, Liiga (2024 Draft) Part2

ChicagoBullsFan

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For those who watched him at the U-18, how did he play so far?
Kiviharju has played well.
But keep in mind that Latvia and Norway aren't any-kind measuring-sticks for Finland's defenders.

Lets see after Slovakia and USA games where Kiviharju is going in this tournament.
Finland's defence hasn't tested yet so it is damn hard to say is that defence enough good to win a medal.
 

illone84

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Well, he was still shit in the game and a big disappointment imho. I hope he bounces back against Sweden. I expect tons more. He needs to produce because he ain't that special in defense.
my guess is he drops to the second round in the draft.
 
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ijuka

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Is he better than he was 2 years ago? It's kinda. Feels like he hasn't progressed at all. I thought he was great for his age 2 years ago. But since then, I'm just not sure. I know there's been the injury and all but, a lot should happen in 2 years. In 2 years, guys can go from 0.5 ppg to 2.0 ppg in CHL.

I just have been thinking that maybe the Liiga route wasn't ideal and perhaps CHL would have been better, similarly with Lambert.
 

Albatros

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I just have been thinking that maybe the Liiga route wasn't ideal and perhaps CHL would have been better, similarly with Lambert.
Unlike Lambert, he would have had to continue working with the same head coach that he apparently wanted to get away from though.
 

Svedu

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Unlike Lambert, he would have had to continue working with the same head coach that he apparently wanted to get away from though.
Jussi Ahokas? Ain't that pretty strange? Like why, is it all on Ahokas or could it be an indicator of something "weak" in Kiviharju?
I won't bash him after this tournament no matter what. Just because being injured so long it's impossible to be in full fitness without games.
But I am worried and disappointed. Even if his formation were good on offensive zone against weaker teams they couldn't manage anything worth mentioning against the US.
Those no look passes from him can't be all can it? I hope to see QB qualities in him like with Heinola and Niemelä at this level and in all honesty, he hasn't been on that level yet.

Worth mentioning is Heinola was special and has had some tough luck lately and not meant to criticize Kiviharju in a bad way. I hold Heinola as a clear first round talent. I just think that the level Heinola held in the WJC's was the best amongst Finnish D's I've seen. The vision, puck handling and ice cold ability to wait a second extra to see if a another opportunity arrives. He did this with such finesse and could really open the opponents holes and create good chances for his team by his own.
That's what I have expected or wished to see in Kiviharju because in all honesty, that's the only option and chance for him to become a NHLer. There will always be more physical D's being better at defending. And he hasn't been able to show those qualities, yet. After being so hyped I'm a bit bummed so far.
 

Albatros

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Jussi Ahokas? Ain't that pretty strange? Like why, is it all on Ahokas or could it be an indicator of something "weak" in Kiviharju?
I don't think Kiviharju plays for anyone else but himself, like any player would. If he had a coach that didn't trust him, then why follow that coach into another league? It was a common sense decision to go someplace else.
 

Svedu

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I don't think Kiviharju plays for anyone else but himself, like any player would. If he had a coach that didn't trust him, then why follow that coach into another league? It was a common sense decision to go someplace else.
I'm not having the TPS vs HIFK aspect in my mind. The broader perspective should be more interesting so please put that aside. He isn't that physically impressing with his skating, strength etc. So the point was... Would he benefitted of playing in NA against juniors and focus on becoming a good offensive D with good qualities in the PP? Because I just don't see any impressive development in that area and he was a complete non factor against the US.

Last but not least, why didn't the coach trust him? And if he's that talented couldn't he be able to turn things around and showcase his real potential to the same coach, especially against juniors? Or do you think Ahokas is boneheaded or something?
Because in all honesty, if you can't manage a challenging coach at the junior level, is it then likely to become a first rounder or future or potential top4 D at the NHL level?
 

Albatros

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I'm not having the TPS vs HIFK aspect in my mind. The broader perspective should be more interesting so please put that aside. He isn't that physically impressing with his skating, strength etc. So the point was... Would he benefitted of playing in NA against juniors and focus on becoming a good offensive D with good qualities in the PP? Because I just don't see any impressive development in that area and he was a complete non factor against the US.

Last but not least, why didn't the coach trust him? And if he's that talented couldn't he be able to turn things around and showcase his real potential to the same coach, especially against juniors? Or do you think Ahokas is boneheaded or something?
Because in all honesty, if you can't manage a challenging coach at the junior level, is it then likely to become a first rounder or future or potential top4 D at the NHL level?
Where else do you suggest he could have went other than to Kitchener with Ahokas with whom he already made bad experiences and whose own experience in North American hockey is rather thin?

Whether Ahokas is a competent coach overall or not doesn't really matter, as a free agent you take the best deal available to you personally. With HIFK that was pro hockey at a bigger organization including everything that comes with it, ability to continue studies, and a different coach more willing to provide opportunities. Kitchener would have been junior hockey, quit studies, and try prove yourself to your old coach that didn't give you opportunities even while the team was bottom of the league in offensive production. Because of the injury this season went quite different than intended, but I can't imagine I would have even seriously considered leaving with Ahokas to Kitchener if I was in Kiviharju's shoes in the summer of 2023.

Being drafted in the first round is also mostly just noise, not something worth basing fundamental career choices on. He can be drafted wherever and have a good career in Europe until that team comes calling. For every Heiskanen there are too many Finnish defensemen drafted in the first round that didn't manage to build on that. Ristolainen is probably the only one currently in the league that really improved his fortunes significantly by being drafted high.
 

Svedu

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Where else do you suggest he could have went other than to Kitchener with Ahokas with whom he already made bad experiences and whose own experience in North American hockey is rather thin?

Whether Ahokas is a competent coach overall or not doesn't really matter, as a free agent you take the best deal available to you personally. With HIFK that was pro hockey at a bigger organization including everything that comes with it, ability to continue studies, and a different coach more willing to provide opportunities. Kitchener would have been junior hockey, quit studies, and try prove yourself to your old coach that didn't give you opportunities even while the team was bottom of the league in offensive production. Because of the injury this season went quite different than intended, but I can't imagine I would have even seriously considered leaving with Ahokas to Kitchener if I was in Kiviharju's shoes in the summer of 2023.

Being drafted in the first round is also mostly just noise, not something worth basing fundamental career choices on. He can be drafted wherever and have a good career in Europe until that team comes calling. For every Heiskanen there are too many Finnish defensemen drafted in the first round that didn't manage to build on that. Ristolainen is probably the only one currently in the league that really improved his fortunes significantly by being drafted high.
That's my point, I don't suggest anything, I'm questioning. Also, what was those bad experiences? I mean why even mention bad experiences and then not tell about them? That's pretty lame if anything. Last but not least, does bad experiences have to mean something is written on stone and that things is going to be like that forever? Just like development can go up and down, so can relations and other things in life.
I mean you never heard Kiviharju get the same treatment or be questioned as Lambert did and I do think that's quite inconsistent and strange that the same people who questioned Lambert a whole lot don't do the same with a hyped- or in worst case overhyped prospect in Kiviharju?
Also, it's not like Ahokas has the worst merits either, he has actually won some things in his coaching career.
And lastly, Lambert always had some serious speed and decent stickhandling. Those dynamic things seem even to be a weakness of his if anything.

Yeah, i understand you and you have plenty of valid points but you make it sound like there would only be one junior league available. And that's making things bit too simple. Also, even if the injury was crucial he still hasn't managed to produce more points in HIFK than in TPS.
And... If you saw the pre games for the last WJC's it was clear that Kiviharju hadn't developed the physique to play at that level and especially against the NA teams. He had neither enough strength or speed to do so. I mean that was already a sign for me, like "Perhaps don't rush this kid to play in the mens league if he's not ready".
I mean EK65 was a lot bigger prospect with actual good skating ability and he didn't get to play seriously against men before 08/09. That route isn't the best for everyone and there are some players that grow later.

I mean Aatos Koivu is another example. I don't wanna see him grind in Liiga when hasn't shown jack in the u18's or that impressive numbers at juniors. Like let the kid develop some serious skill before throwing him to the wolves and then only reach a top9 level at Liiga. What's the point in that. Same could be said about talents like Leevi Aaltonen and others.

But at the end of the day I blame mentors, youth directors etc more than the kid himself. It's their job to give some helpful advice and be able to problematize youth development and really see the individual and his strength and weaknesses. In this aspect or department the Finnish junior hockey seem to lack severely at the moment.
I think he should've played against juniors and focus a whole lot on training and developing skating and then skill for the long run. And I do believe he would've benefitted a whole lot more of that than another finnish prospect like... Say Heiskanen. Because Miro was and is actually a great skater. Kiviharju is not.
 
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Loffer

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Long time, no see. I guess the more serious side of life has taken its toll on me and so on. But here we are now: as entertained as ever but even more baffled. I mean now that I have watched these u-18 WC matches: Team Finland/Little Lions as my primary focus - well, I had to come and see what folks write about the once massively hyped ”prodigy” of Aron Kiviharju. I know I know he’s been side-lined for almost the whole season due to a knee injury or something etc. But anyway, let’s cut to the chase. I was quite stupified as I watched the kid play. I just couldn’t find a single ’outstanding’ attribute in his game warranting the hype; also his short stature came as a shocking surprise to me. Straigthline skating. Bummer. Edge work. Lame. Stick handling. Stiff/non-existent.

I concluded he must have one hell of an agent and PR team behind him. Or stratospheric tons of all kinds of ’intangibles’, hockey IQ, leadership qualities, work ethic, etc…

Or then he just fell from the hype train (or is it a tree leading to stars and beyond?) during those long tedious months nursing injury while not making any significant progress for several seasons. Too bad.

But as Svedu implies, all too typical to Finnish ”super-talents”. Some just mature earlier and spend all their extra time training and ”preparing for the future NHL career” - which never came.

Not meaning to be overly harsh but it does look pretty odd. How did this player get so highly praised as some ”toddler on skates”. Stupid and counter-productive. Also Aron Kiviharju would have beneftted from a versatile background in different sports from 7 to 15 years old. I presume he has not done much anything else than played hockey for all his life.

I might be wrong though. Let’s only hope I am. In everything.
 

Svedu

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Long time, no see. I guess the more serious side of life has taken its toll on me and so on. But here we are now: as entertained as ever but even more baffled. I mean now that I have watched these u-18 WC matches: Team Finland/Little Lions as my primary focus - well, I had to come and see what folks write about the once massively hyped ”prodigy” of Aron Kiviharju. I know I know he’s been side-lined for almost the whole season due to a knee injury or something etc. But anyway, let’s cut to the chase. I was quite stupified as I watched the kid play. I just couldn’t find a single ’outstanding’ attribute in his game warranting the hype; also his short stature came as a shocking surprise to me. Straigthline skating. Bummer. Edge work. Lame. Stick handling. Stiff/non-existent.

I concluded he must have one hell of an agent and PR team behind him. Or stratospheric tons of all kinds of ’intangibles’, hockey IQ, leadership qualities, work ethic, etc…

Or then he just fell from the hype train (or is it a tree leading to stars and beyond?) during those long tedious months nursing injury while not making any significant progress for several seasons. Too bad.

But as Svedu implies, all too typical to Finnish ”super-talents”. Some just mature earlier and spend all their extra time training and ”preparing for the future NHL career” - which never came.

Not meaning to be overly harsh but it does look pretty odd. How did this player get so highly praised as some ”toddler on skates”. Stupid and counter-productive. Also Aron Kiviharju would have beneftted from a versatile background in different sports from 7 to 15 years old. I presume he has not done much anything else than played hockey for all his life.

I might be wrong though. Let’s only hope I am. In everything.
I love your posts. Hfboards and finns philosopher in here. Thank you and we appreciate you.
 
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ijuka

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Unlike Lambert, he would have had to continue working with the same head coach that he apparently wanted to get away from though.
Good point, there indeed were such rumors. Although I'm not sure if that's really the case.
 

ijuka

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I had to come and see what folks write about the once massively hyped ”prodigy” of Aron Kiviharju. I know I know he’s been side-lined for almost the whole season due to a knee injury or something etc. But anyway, let’s cut to the chase. I was quite stupified as I watched the kid play. I just couldn’t find a single ’outstanding’ attribute in his game warranting the hype; also his short stature came as a shocking surprise to me. Straigthline skating. Bummer. Edge work. Lame. Stick handling. Stiff/non-existent.
Two years ago, still think he was good for his age. But right now, two years later, it feels like he's still the same player. It's a bit, yeah. Issues that should have been temporary just haven't, well, gotten fixed.

In the early ages, you see stuff like WSI u14 where he scored 21 points as a D right, when a year older Dalibor Dvorsky scored 11 points and even Ivan Demidov scored 16. I know it's not that relevant, but these both are top 10 pick talents so I figured I'd mention it

These WSIs are a bit, yeah, although you can see some things in them. Matthew Savoie and Shane Wright both did well, and went on to become quite strong prospects. When Connor Bedard was u13 I saw him at WSI scoring 24 goals in 7 games and he effectively danced laps around everyone else. Some things you can see even at an early age. Then again, some players who do well here never become much of anything.

But what I can say about Kiviharju is that at that time, he used to be a dynamic, puck-driving defenseman and lost almost all of that. Now he effectively just plays it safe and makes no plays at all. And these are fine temporarily, but I feel like, yeah. He's pretty much the same player now as he was two years ago.

Usually, even as you watch these players play in WSI at these ages, they don't end up completely changing their play style down the line like this. For example, if you watch the 12yo Bedard in the WSI that I mentioned and the current Bedard, you can recognize that it's the same player.

So I'm just not sure. After 2 years, it's hard to think that it's just a temporary change, but I still feel like the dynamic offensive play should be there somewhere, which is why I was thinking of CHL.
 
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Albatros

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That's my point, I don't suggest anything, I'm questioning. Also, what was those bad experiences? I mean why even mention bad experiences and then not tell about them? That's pretty lame if anything. Last but not least, does bad experiences have to mean something is written on stone and that things is going to be like the forever? Just like development can go up and down, so can relations and other things in life.
I mean you never heard Kiviharju get the same treatment or be questioned as Lambert did and I do think that's quite inconsistent and strange that the same people who questioned Lambert a whole lot don't do the same with a hyped- or in worst case overhyped prospect in Kiviharju?
Also, it's not like Ahokas has the worst merits either, he has actually won some things in his coaching career.

Yeah, i understand you and you have plenty of valid points but you make it sound like there would only be one junior league available. And that's making things bit too simple. Also, even if the injury was crucial he still hasn't managed to produce more points in HIFK than in TPS.
And... If you saw the pre games for the last WJC's it was clear that Kiviharju hadn't devloped the physique to play at that level and especially against the NA teams. He had neither enough strength or speed to do so. I mean that was already a sign for me, like "Perhaps don't rush this kid to play in the mens league if he's not ready".
I mean EK65 was a lot bigger prospect with actual good skating ability and he didn't get to play seriously against men before 08/09. That route isn't the best for everyone and there are some players that grow later.

I mean Aatos Koivu is another example. I don't wanna see him grind in Liiga when hasn't shown jack in the u18's or that impressive numbers at juniors. Like let the kid develop some serious skill before throwing him to the wolves and then only reach a top9 level at Liiga. What's the point in that. Same could be said about talents like Leevi Aaltonen and others.

But at the end of the day I blame mentors, youth directors etc more than the kid himself. It's there job to give some helpful advice and be able to problematize youth development and really se the individual and his strength and weaknesses. In this aspect or department the Finnish junior hockey seem to lack severely at the moment.
I think he should've played against juniors and focus a whole lot on training and developing skating and then skill for the long run. And I do believe he would've benefitted a whole lot more of that than another finnish prospect like... Say Heiskanen. Because Miro was and is actually a great skater. Kiviharju is not.
Bad experiences as in getting no ice time as a creative offensive defenseman when that's exactly what the team would have needed. Instead they were just shutting it down all game every game with a roster that didn't need to resort to that. After he was fired Ahokas blamed the club for forcing his hand, but as a head coach you have to take some responsibility for how your team is playing over an entire season. Also Kiviharju Sr. criticized him for that so it's evident there was frustration.

I don't know what other junior leagues could have been possible, maybe the NCAA but there you also need the academic side to fit and he went to a trade school rather than a general education high school. Or then the BCHL which is not very import friendly, but is that really an option for a European top prospect that can also pretty much choose his Liiga team?

Karlsson made a big mistake going to Södertälje, absolutely hated it there off the ice which almost made him abandon hockey altogether as he had a three-year contract. Went AWOL and was suspended from both school and from hockey for seven months or so. Luckily the situation could eventually be solved and he recovered at Frölunda who bought him free, but it totally didn't go according to plan in his case.
 

Svedu

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Third round if not later based on his performance after this tournament. Feel like it's closer to fourth than second after seeing his two last games imho.

People mention stagnation, what about regression? I believe that could be more fitting in his case. Just like with Lambert and Tuomaala actually. Before NA that is.
 
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Albatros

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Aron if you respect your own future and development
plaese leave from HIFK and go Kitchener Rangers there you get better development and coaching.
Staying to HIFK and SM liiga kills your development and NHL chances so please leave to OHL.
It's better for you.
He has a contract in Finland until 2025, not going anywhere before then. If he's not drafted in the first round he can't even be given an NHL contract and then sent down.
 
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