"Last Night's Attendance" Thread II

[Hawker14]

I wouldn't try to argue with revisionist history. You're only going to be spinning your wheels.

Every single one of the 18,800+ tonight in the sell out building were tickets that were given away.

I know you're posting in jest, but I'm still waiting for some proof, other than opinion, that every team gives away free tickets, yet alone significant amounts of them.

we know nashville does as leipold claims to give away an average of 1500 (although that treacherous "Tennesean" stated 1800 per game, those lyin' liars). but seriously, other than that ? the apologists claim every team gives tickets away (imo to cast doubt on sell-out figures for the obviously strong markets) but no proof has ever been provided to support this.

so, i'll ask. how many tickets do the hurricanes give away for free ?

 

[Vagrant]

so, i'll ask. how many tickets do the hurricanes give away for free ?

To be honest with you, short of having access to the front office I wouldn't be able to give you an accurate answer to that one. However, I know that it's very common for NHL teams to have corporate sponsorship that is given compensatory tickets in an act of good faith that are distributed at the instruction of the higher up. While those certainly may appear to be tickets that are "given away", it's like saying if you donate $5 to me i'll donate back to you a latte' from Starbucks.

I do know that it's not nearly enough to make a significant impact on the attendance numbers, though. There have been some absolute stinkers in the time the team has spent in Greensboro but I would like to think those days are well behind.

 

[Hawker14]

And a Thursday schedule full of markets that we all know get lousy attendance. Publishing weekend #s wouldn't be half as fun, I guess.

Every team draws well on weekends. You're right, there's no story there. It's the weekdays that distinguish the good markets from bad. I guess I should've found the time to post all the stinkers like Tuesday's games in Washington, St. Louis (as usual), and on the Island. I'll try to be more vigilant.

The traditional vs. non-traditional labels are also only there to be offensive. LA pre-dates the Isles, so if you're putting LA in as non-traditional then the Isles should be too, right? Otherwise I guess you're just using the "does it snow there" criteria.

Well he obviously isn't using the Does it snow there criteria as he list Washington in non-traditional. I certainly remember having to walk through snow last week when I went to the Devils-Caps game last week in Washington.

Are you guys serious ? You don't like my definition of LA/Anaheim and Washington as being southern/non-traditional markets, so I'm posting them as such to be offensive ? Do a poll to see if you have alot of support as to whether they're considered traditional, just watch out, others' opinions may also be offensive.

Honestly attendance is a bad measuring stick for fan support considering there are too many individual factors that are different for each location. Take Washington for example where if you want to buy season tickets in certain areas you also have to buy season tickets to the Wizards and Mystics first. No surprise those are the section that empty and drag attendance down.

OK, let's take Washington. Which areas are these ? Are these seats that go unsold to potential season ticket holders, due to this Wizards/Mystics cross marketing, unavailable as walkup tickets ? Can you quantify how many of these potential season ticket holders are not attending games because of this program ? I ask because when the announced tickets distributed still leave 7,000 empty seats for some games it's either because of this cross-marketing, that you are stating is horrible, or it's just that the fans have abandoned the team even with a superstar in Ovechkin. With a metro area of 5.2 million, surely Washington can get 16-17,000 people to buy tickets to games on a regular basis.

 

[Hawker14]

I'm sure it was created so that people like you who like to ***** about other teams attendance only post in one thread instead of start a new one every night.

No, I always post attendance in the relevant thread.

Not so that every game's attendance is posted.

Incorrect. The thread rule states "If you're going to post attendance figures for "last night", you must post ALL of the attendance figures. Being selective about which numbers to post will not be allowed.".

Are you still "sure" why this thread with that rule was created ?

 

[Hawker14]

Exactly.

I'm just not certain that big markets are ready for hockey yet, given that the end of the lockout made it to page one of just about every sports section in North America except New York's papers.


Winnipeg Ho! Dibs on the first white towel!

I agree. The NHL back in Winnipeg seems to be a certainty. Thanks for your support.

 

[KeydGV21]

I know you're posting in jest, but I'm still waiting for some proof, other than opinion, that every team gives away free tickets, yet alone significant amounts of them.

we know nashville does as leipold claims to give away an average of 1500 (although that treacherous "Tennesean" stated 1800 per game, those lyin' liars). but seriously, other than that ? the apologists claim every team gives tickets away (imo to cast doubt on sell-out figures for the obviously strong markets) but no proof has ever been provided to support this.

so, i'll ask. how many tickets do the hurricanes give away for free ?

Just to save everyone the time, per the CBA players on the home team each get 2 free tickets... That said, I'd be willing to bet that there are teams that have fewer then 500 (Toronto and Montreal come to mind as cities that wouldn't even need that many).

 

[Hawker14]

To be honest with you, short of having access to the front office I wouldn't be able to give you an accurate answer to that one. However, I know that it's very common for NHL teams to have corporate sponsorship that is given compensatory tickets in an act of good faith that are distributed at the instruction of the higher up. While those certainly may appear to be tickets that are "given away", it's like saying if you donate $5 to me i'll donate back to you a latte' from Starbucks.

I do know that it's not nearly enough to make a significant impact on the attendance numbers, though.

maybe that's why bill daly is quoted as being concerned about nashville. a first place team that has to give out 1500 freebies each game and still isn't selling out on weekdays (and now with forsberg to boot).

 

[dabid]

Columbus @ Phoenix - 16,207 at Jobing.com Arena
New York Islanders @ Washington - 16,453 at Verizon Center
Nashville @ Los Angeles - 16,854 at Staples Center
Tampa Bay @ Florida - 17,299 at BankAtlantic Center
Montreal @ Boston - 17,565 at TD Banknorth Garden (Sellout)
St. Louis @ New York Rangers - 18,200 at Madison Square Garden (Sellout)
Buffalo @ Toronto - 19,515 at Air Canada Centre (Sellout)
Calgary @ Edmonton - Game still isnt over, probably a sell out

 

[phillypensfan]

Colorado @ Detroit - 20,066 at JLA (100.0% full)
Philadelphia @ Pittsburgh - 17,132 at Mellon Arena (101.0% full)
Carolina @ Atlanta - 17,783 at Philips Arena (95.9% full)
Ottawa @ Chicago - 13,917 at United Center (67.9% full)

The rest of the games don't have attendance listed yet.


Also, the remaining 8 home games for the Pens are all sold out.

 

[hockeydadx2*]

Also, the remaining 8 home games for the Pens are all sold out.

Nonseason ticket holders apparently can't buy a full playoff package unless they put down a nonrefundable deposit on season tickets for next year.

I'm a STH, but that's getting too cocky, too soon, if you ask me.

 

[Pens75]

Some up to date attendance stats for Pittsburgh...

- Sunday was the Penguins' 21st sellout of the season.
- Fourteen of the past 16 home games have been sellouts.
- Averaging 16,197 fans per game through 31 home games before yesterday, or 95% of capacity.
- Only one remaining home game, Buffalo April 3, had more than 1,000 tickets available as of early yesterday.
- That would give the Penguins 30 sellouts, tying the number from the 1992-93 team that won the President's Trophy.
- The only three seasons with more sellouts were 34 in 1988-89, 34 in 1989-90 and 32 in 1991-92.

College students, have camped out at the arena doors at noon on game days, seven hours before the opening faceoff. On Fleury Bobblehead Night they were standing in the lobby of the Marriott, that's where the line ended. All in hopes of snapping up the remaining tickets as part of the Student Rush Program, which hasn't been left with many seats lately, just 22 were available for the New Jersey Devils this past Tuesday.

Don Cherry? Do you have any comments to add?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Some up to date attendance stats for Pittsburgh...

- Sunday was the Penguins' 21st sellout of the season.
- Fourteen of the past 16 home games have been sellouts.
- Averaging 16,197 fans per game through 31 home games before yesterday, or 95% of capacity.
- Only one remaining home game, Buffalo April 3, had more than 1,000 tickets available as of early yesterday.
- That would give the Penguins 30 sellouts, tying the number from the 1992-93 team that won the President's Trophy.
- The only three seasons with more sellouts were 34 in 1988-89, 34 in 1989-90 and 32 in 1991-92.

College students, have camped out at the arena doors at noon on game days, seven hours before the opening faceoff. On Fleury Bobblehead Night they were standing in the lobby of the Marriott, that's where the line ended. All in hopes of snapping up the remaining tickets as part of the Student Rush Program, which hasn't been left with many seats lately, just 22 were available for the New Jersey Devils this past Tuesday.

Don Cherry? Do you have any comments to add?

Article that goes further into those numbers and the mania for the Pens in Pittsburgh:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07064/766890-61.stm

 

[Hawker14]

Article that goes further into those numbers and the mania for the Pens in Pittsburgh:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07064/766890-61.stm

This is a classic description of what a real hockey city is - When there is a mania surrounding the team. Bad markets can't compare to Pittsburgh when their general populations couldn't care less about the NHL.

 

[DevFan-RU-]

I am curious about one thing regarding Penguins home attendance...

It was only a few years ago where they were on the bottom of attendance rankings.

So... while now they have Crosby, Malkin, Staal... can the other reason for their current attendance success be attributed to the threat of the teams' movement?

In many cases, fans in a particular market become complacent... Maybe the team is rebuilding and doing poorly? Or maybe its just an all-around good team whose success is taken for granted? Fans just dont show up... or are more apathetic to the teams' situation.

But all in all, the fans think: "They're never going to move... their our team." Etc. Then, all of a sudden, a new arena becomes a neccessity, or the team becomes less profitable due to fans not going... All of a sudden, overnight, moving becomes an option... This then might drive the fans to overwhelmingly support their team. Tickets become affordable. Attendance jumps. They have sell-outs, and all of a sudden become a "Hockey" town all over again.

I mean, its not the only reason they have sell-outs... as I said, having a young team with alot of potential really helps... but having the team threatened with moving is one thing that can really motivate the fan base.

You never truely appreciate something until you face the possibility of losing it.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Crosby coming and the related P.R certainly got it going. I think when people started talking about moving the team, the fans really decided they wanted the team there. They probably have knowledge about what Winnipeg went through, and saw it could happen to them. The internet is a powerful tool, and you can bet a lot of the Pens fans who kept hearing about Winnipeg went and did some research to find out why the Jets left town, and are trying to avoid the same mistake. Getting the college/university crowd into it too helps a lot. That, plus getting Staal, Malkin, plus talk going around that this team could contend for a Stanley Cup and having a winning team again have all contributed, and I say good for them: the fans took matters into their own hands and spoke with their wallets. I don't know all of what happened in Winnipeg, as I am sure the fans there were just as strong in their support, and it's been argued on these boards by those far more knowledgable than me. As far as the Pens are concerned, the fans are saying if they leave, it won't be because they didn't support them.

 

[Hawker14]

Crosby coming and the related P.R certainly got it going. I think when people started talking about moving the team, the fans really decided they wanted the team there. They probably have knowledge about what Winnipeg went through, and saw it could happen to them. The internet is a powerful tool, and you can bet a lot of the Pens fans who kept hearing about Winnipeg went and did some research to find out why the Jets left town, and are trying to avoid the same mistake. Getting the college/university crowd into it too helps a lot. That, plus getting Staal, Malkin, plus talk going around that this team could contend for a Stanley Cup and having a winning team again have all contributed, and I say good for them: the fans took matters into their own hands and spoke with their wallets. I don't know all of what happened in Winnipeg, as I am sure the fans there were just as strong in their support, and it's been argued on these boards by those far more knowledgable than me. As far as the Pens are concerned, the fans are saying if they leave, it won't be because they didn't support them.

in a nutshell the jets left because:

In the midst of the Save the Jets campaign, of which a rally of 35,000 fans was held at the Forks in May'95, bettman required the Spirit of Manitoba (potential ownership group) to produce a line of credit of $ 130 million to cover potential losses on top of the $ 40 million purchase price. the proposed 16,500 seat arena would take two years to complete, and considering the Jets received only ticket revenue from the old Winnipeg Arena, the Spirit Group walked as it became apparent they were not willing to foot any losses. A deal was struck with Burke and Gluckstern to sell the team for u$ 67 million (plus a 10 year u$ 5 million consultant contract for Shenkarow) to move the team to Phoenix, and the Jets remained for one last lame duck season in Winnipeg in '95-'96.

Had an arena been built in the early 90's things may have been different, and an ownership group may have invested in the team. Or Shenkarow and his group may have even stayed on board (which he tried so hard to do during the Spirit negotiations).

One thing for certain was that the Winnipeg Arena wasn't an NHL building, and with only 13,000 unobstructed-view seats and no modern revenue streams, the NHL was in jeopardy in Winnipeg as early as '92 because of it and the escalating player salaries.

 

[MaskedSonja]

in a nutshell the jets left because:

In the midst of the Save the Jets campaign, of which a rally of 35,000 fans was held at the Forks in May'95, bettman required the Spirit of Manitoba (potential ownership group) to produce a line of credit of $ 130 million to cover potential losses on top of the $ 40 million purchase price. the proposed 16,500 seat arena would take two years to complete, and considering the Jets received only ticket revenue from the old Winnipeg Arena, the Spirit Group walked as it became apparent they were not willing to foot any losses. A deal was struck with Burke and Gluckstern to sell the team for u$ 67 million (plus a 10 year u$ 5 million consultant contract for Shenkarow) to move the team to Phoenix, and the Jets remained for one last lame duck season in Winnipeg in '95-'96.

Had an arena been built in the early 90's things may have been different, and an ownership group may have invested in the team. Or Shenkarow and his group may have even stayed on board (which he tried so hard to do during the Spirit negotiations).

One thing for certain was that the Winnipeg Arena wasn't an NHL building, and with only 13,000 unobstructed-view seats and no modern revenue streams, the NHL was in jeopardy in Winnipeg as early as '92 because of it and the escalating player salaries.

Thanks for the info. I've seen so much argued about costs, attendence, Corp support, ect, I didn't feel I could comment on why the Jets left as it pertained the Pens. Even now there's the argument for Winnipeg about whether the current arena could hold enough, ect ect. Sounds like it was mainly a money issue, and where was that money going to come from. I guess an argument could be made that Lemeiux bought the team and took a huge hit and held onto it until new management and/or arena would be built, and that's why the Pens are probably staying pending an arena agreement. From what I understand, but like I said, those who know far more about it have argued both pro and con.

 

[Hawker14]

Thanks for the info. I've seen so much argued about costs, attendence, Corp support, ect, I didn't feel I could comment on why the Jets left as it pertained the Pens. Even now there's the argument for Winnipeg about whether the current arena could hold enough, ect ect. Sounds like it was mainly a money issue, and where was that money going to come from. I guess an argument could be made that Lemeiux bought the team and took a huge hit and held onto it until new management and/or arena would be built, and that's why the Pens are probably staying pending an arena agreement. From what I understand, but like I said, those who know far more about it have argued both pro and con.

In Lemieux's case, he had a back-loaded contract from his playing days, and when the team went into bankruptcy in '99, he basically had the choice as a secured creditor of leveraging what he was owed into an ownership stake in the team, or losing pretty much everything he was owed.

His ownership in the Pens has been, at least in my opinion, to protect the money he was owed. He's been trying to get an arena for over seven years, and the Igloo's limited revenue streams have reflected the Pens' player payroll during this time.

Pittsburgh is in a very similar situation that Winnipeg was in during the final hours, as far as the arena situation goes, but the Pens have an ace card. And that's Sidney Crosby. There won't be a problem attracting an owner when the league's next superstar is in the franchise and an arena deal is pretty much done.

The Penguins aren't going anywhere.

 

[Stone87]

They really should keep the team in Pittsburgh, they actually do turn a profit even with that awful arena they play in. I don't want to hear about how Kansas City is losing 20 million dollars a season in five years like some of the other teams that were put in markets unsuitable for hockey.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I am curious about one thing regarding Penguins home attendance...

It was only a few years ago where they were on the bottom of attendance rankings.

So... while now they have Crosby, Malkin, Staal... can the other reason for their current attendance success be attributed to the threat of the teams' movement?

In many cases, fans in a particular market become complacent... Maybe the team is rebuilding and doing poorly? Or maybe its just an all-around good team whose success is taken for granted? Fans just dont show up... or are more apathetic to the teams' situation.

But all in all, the fans think: "They're never going to move... their our team." Etc. Then, all of a sudden, a new arena becomes a neccessity, or the team becomes less profitable due to fans not going... All of a sudden, overnight, moving becomes an option... This then might drive the fans to overwhelmingly support their team. Tickets become affordable. Attendance jumps. They have sell-outs, and all of a sudden become a "Hockey" town all over again.

I mean, its not the only reason they have sell-outs... as I said, having a young team with alot of potential really helps... but having the team threatened with moving is one thing that can really motivate the fan base.

You never truely appreciate something until you face the possibility of losing it.

The team sold off assets like Jagr, Straka, Lang and on and on. Then predictably plunged to last place. The fans reacted accordingly for a couple of years. You only need to look at previously bedrock of the NHL markets like St. Louis and Chicago to see that Pens' fans acted no worse. In fact Pittsburgh has been a very strong hockey market for decades. Some have pointed out actually for well over a century. Consitently top rankings in the US for hockey local broadcasts. And north of 90% attendence most years for decades too.

 

[Hawker14]

The team sold off assets like Jagr, Straka, Lang and on and on. Then predictably plunged to last place. The fans reacted accordingly for a couple of years. You only need to look at previously bedrock of the NHL markets like St. Louis and Chicago to see that Pens' fans acted no worse. In fact Pittsburgh has been a very strong hockey market for decades. Some have pointed out actually for well over a century. Consitently top rankings in the US for hockey local broadcasts. And north of 90% attendence most years for decades too.

St. Louis never had a selloff like the Pens did. Their attendance dropped as soon as the team missed the playoffs in 25 years. Even now, the Blues are competitive but the fans still won't buy tickets en masse unless free food is involved.

 

[Sotnos]

They really should keep the team in Pittsburgh, they actually do turn a profit even with that awful arena they play in.

They do?

 

[Stone87]

According to Forbes they've turned a profit almost every year for the last while.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

St. Louis never had a selloff like the Pens did. Their attendance dropped as soon as the team missed the playoffs in 25 years. Even now, the Blues are competitive but the fans still won't buy tickets en masse unless free food is involved.

Please. Stop. Comments like this only serve to inflame others, and I've just about had enough.

 

[guinness]

Colorado @ Detroit - 20,066 at JLA (100.0% full)
Philadelphia @ Pittsburgh - 17,132 at Mellon Arena (101.0% full)
Carolina @ Atlanta - 17,783 at Philips Arena (95.9% full)
Ottawa @ Chicago - 13,917 at United Center (67.9% full)

The rest of the games don't have attendance listed yet.


Also, the remaining 8 home games for the Pens are all sold out.

THe JLA numbers are such ******** though; yeah, the tickets are sold, and in the bottom line, that's all that matters, but there are soooo many empty seats down there. I'm hoping I can go to the Nashville game tomorrow just to see if there are less empty seats than the Ottawa game I went to in Dec.