Confirmed with Link: Kings trade Cammalleri to Edmonton for Jussi Jokinen

[kingsholygrail]

Clifford won't be much of a boost. Being a little better than Andreoff isn't saying much.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I dunno if i believe that timeline. Blake himself said to the reporters last night late November (according to the new buzz reporter) to early December according to Bernstein reports now its mid december I think something is wrong somewhere. As for Carter we have always heard January as the return date I find it really weird everyone is pushed back a month

There's been nothing set in stone for either guy. Every day, every week, it's been something different. It's not as bad here, a little longer there. Haven't seen a set 6-10, or 8-12 weeks, or anything. It's just been, it's going to be a while, whatever that ends up meaning.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Clifford won't be much of a boost. Being a little better than Andreoff isn't saying much.

Not sure if underrating Clifford or vastly overrating Andreoff.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Not sure if underrating Clifford or vastly overrating Andreoff.

I don't think Clifford is really all that good. He's survived given how purely awful the left side of this team really is.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't think Clifford is really all that good. He's survived given how purely awful the left side of this team really is.

Not even gonna stat dig because it's stark but there is an ocean-sized gap between the contributions of Andreoff and Clifford. He's a useful player that would stick on any roster in the league easily for the elements he brings. Andreoff is a less than a dime a dozen player who doesn't even have a spot on THIS roster when they're healthy.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Not even gonna stat dig because it's stark but there is an ocean-sized gap between the contributions of Andreoff and Clifford. He's a useful player that would stick on any roster in the league easily for the elements he brings. Andreoff is a less than a dime a dozen player who doesn't even have a spot on THIS roster when they're healthy.

They're both roughly .25PPG players. They both commit roughly 1 penalty per game. Clifford may be better defensively, but that's really all he's got. I don't know why people insist that Clifford is good. Dwight King had better numbers.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I love Clifford, but the duo of Clifford/Nolan didn't get it done the last few years.

If I was Blake, I would consider putting the toughness in the younger, cheaper duo of Andreoff and MacD.

Andreoff has now fought Watson, Boll, and Dorsett. He has stood up for his teammates, just hasn't put the numbers on the board yet. He is more active in scrums than Nolan ever was.

Also, are we looking at a 4th line now of Laich-Amadio-Jokinen?

Why Laich is still with the Kings baffles me. Only three players are -5; Shore, Andreoff, and Laich. Shore can win face offs and put up some points, Andreoff provides toughness, what does Laich do?

 

[kingsholygrail]

I love Clifford, but the duo of Clifford/Nolan didn't get it done the last few years.

If I was Blake, I would consider putting the toughness in the younger, cheaper duo of Andreoff and MacD.

Andreoff has now fought Watson, Boll, and Dorsett. He has stood up for his teammates, just hasn't put the numbers on the board yet. He is more active in scrums than Nolan ever was.

Also, are we looking at a 4th line now of Laich-Amadio-Jokinen?

Why Laich is still with the Kings baffles me. Only three players are -5; Shore, Andreoff, and Laich. Shore can win face offs and put up some points, Andreoff provides toughness, what does Laich do?

Veteran leadership or whatever, I imagine is the reasoning.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

They're both roughly .25PPG players. They both commit roughly 1 penalty per game. Clifford may be better defensively, but that's really all he's got. I don't know why people insist that Clifford is good. Dwight King had better numbers.

Even in a very reductive evaluation, "not being a liability" is a pretty f***ing large upgrade.

Clifford is part of arguably the best fourth line of the league when healthy. Andreoff just holds his seat warm because everything he does, Kyle does a large order of magnitude better. Hell, it's not even about offense directly, it's more about possession/protection, but Kyle had more points last year than AA has had in 3 years. Hell, in 3 games this year, Clifford had a point--let me know when AA gets on the board in a positive way!

 

[kingsholygrail]

Even in a very reductive evaluation, "not being a liability" is a pretty ****ing large upgrade.

Clifford is part of arguably the best fourth line of the league when healthy. Andreoff just holds his seat warm because everything he does, Kyle does a large order of magnitude better. Hell, it's not even about offense directly, it's more about possession/protection, but Kyle had more points last year than AA has had in 3 years. Hell, in 3 games this year, Clifford had a point--let me know when AA gets on the board in a positive way!

As I've said. They're both turds. Clifford is not going to give this team a Carter/Gaborik boost when he comes back. Not at all.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

As I've said. They're both turds. Clifford is not going to give this team a Carter/Gaborik boost when he comes back. Not at all.

Definitely not Carter, I'd never argue that. He may be more impactful than Gaborik though, just because who knows what player we'll get back in Gabby.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Since Andreoff entered the league, he has put up .71 P/60--there is literally no other LA Kings forward who has done worse. Except Weal and Laich, but yeah, 114 and 117 minutes played. Clifford is at .98, better than Shore, Dowd, Nolan, Stoll...etc.

Clifford is at 54.74 CF%, -.8 rel. AA is 50.83, -4.83%.

Clifford 52.17 GF%, -1.86 rel team. AA is at 42.59 GF%, -9.14% rel team.

Both are at -15 penalty differential.

hits for/60 Clifford is the best on the team since AA entered the league at 12.81. AA is at 10.5

AA's zone-start ratio is at 4.88%, Clifford 1.16. AA's sheltered zone starts more than any forward that was on the team more than a season in that time, yet he is outplayed in every manner by KC.

Again, I'm not saying Clifford is a savant, but him and Shore at least are pretty much ideal 4th liners/bottom sixers that can move up if absolutely needed. Andreoff is an absolute drain on every line he joins as evidenced by every with-or-without-you stat. A couple of fights haven't changed the player he is; I thought he'd have more upside but I've been very disappointed so far.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

This season just started sucking after a great start.

 

[kingsboy11]

I think I'm mostly excited for Clifford's to comeback just to reunite the Clifford-Shore-Lewis line as that line was dominant to start the season. Ever since Clifford got hurt the bottom 6 hasn't been consistent enough and has been a rotating door of rookies and veterans.

 

[KingsHockey24]

As I've said. They're both turds. Clifford is not going to give this team a Carter/Gaborik boost when he comes back. Not at all.

You can easily make an argument that Clifford provides a bigger impact than Gaborik.

Besides a few scraps and a couple hits Andreoff and Dowd have done nothing for this team. I'm excited in seeing what Jokinen can bring to the table.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Clifford isn't going to bring points with him. That's the point.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think I'm mostly excited for Clifford's to comeback just to reunite the Clifford-Shore-Lewis line as that line was dominant to start the season. Ever since Clifford got hurt the bottom 6 hasn't been consistent enough and has been a rotating door of rookies and veterans.

Yeah, that's kind of my big thing. Clifford provides stability and makes our 'third line' the question again. Putting rookies into roles with scrubs is bad news. Like, what do you expect with Andreoff/Laich/AMADIO? poor kid. When we're healthy, that third line is potentially Kempe-Gaborik-x, where x could be anything from Jokinen to rotating rookies for experience. I'm maybe being overly hard on Andreoff (you'll have a hard time convincing me to do otherwise though ) since he's being asked to play out of his pay grade but this move was clearly made with bottom-six experience and stability in mind.

Unfortunately at this stage Jokinen is a bit of a wild card himself, but throwing slow, small Cammalleri out in the bottom six was exacerbating the problem. It's worth a try.

 

[Sol]

The overrating and over reaching of Clifford's impact is a sight to be seen

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The overrating and over reaching of Clifford's impact is a sight to be seen

It's about relativity. Vs. Andreoff, Clifford is a massive upgrade.

And I at least showed my work. This shouldn't be controversial by eye test OR posted fact but people still feel the need to make unsupportable comments.

 

[Sol]

It's about relativity. Vs. Andreoff, Clifford is a massive upgrade.

And I at least showed my work. This shouldn't be controversial by eye test OR posted fact but people still feel the need to make unsupportable comments.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Clifford coming back will have at most a1% difference. He does nothing good to suggest that he will help the Kings a lot. Andreoff sucks and so does Clifford.

Is Clifford better than Lewis?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Don't take this the wrong way, but Clifford coming back will have at most a1% difference. He does nothing good to suggest that he will help the Kings a lot. Andreoff sucks and so does Clifford

Scroll up 8 posts. It's a lot more than one percent.

I'm not taking it the wrong way at all, I just think it's hard to substantiate, but I've offered a lot more than "i just feel he sucks." I'm just getting tired of the vapid driveby comments that aren't based on anything but 'lol 4th line sux' feelings like last year.

Again, since the thread has to do with the bottom six, I'm only talking about how he's basically an ideal 4th liner who can do everything a large order of magnitude better. The Kings clearly agree we need stability in the bottom six, or we wouldn't even have this thread. He's 'helping the Kings a lot' not by dumping in a mountain of points, but with being able to take a normal shift without losing us ground and, in many cases, gaining us possession time in the opposing zone, can fight even heavyweights who just laugh at AA, hits a lot harder and more effectively, can control the puck without being a turnover machine, and understands what puck possession means. That's visibly assessable, and the stats back it up.

If anything, I can't see what anyone arguing in favor of Andreoff is basing anything at all on other than he fought a couple of dudes in the last few games for like the first time ever people are taking him seriously enough to indulge.

 

[BigKing]

When talking about bringing a physical aspect, Clifford is the better player. He hits more and his hits are, with no stats to support this, harder.

Dowd has been a heavier hitter than Andreoff this season. AA's hits are late and soft on the forecheck. He is lacking any type of confidence once the puck is on his stick whereas Clifford is going to make his mind up and do something. We can all agree that the something will probably not be a great play, but there is something to be said for being decisive and getting the puck going north instead of south.

At the present though, I get it: they don't have any forwards that can fight if needed; however, I'd rather sit AA and just dress MacDermid. Let me tell you, MacD could have fumbled the puck just as much as Fantenberg and Folin last night but could have maybe done something to energize the morgue of a crowd.

 

[kingsfan28]

Too bad Andreoff has no clue as to what to do with the puck. There were times last night where his line would have possession of the puck, until Andreoff gained control and would promptly place the puck onto an opponent's stick blade.

I concur with the above statement. Clifford's role in the bottom six is sorely missed.

Why did they draft him again...oh yeah, he has character but no skill.

 

[Sol]

Scroll up 8 posts. It's a lot more than one percent.

I'm not taking it the wrong way at all, I just think it's hard to substantiate, but I've offered a lot more than "i just feel he sucks." I'm just getting tired of the vapid driveby comments that aren't based on anything but 'lol 4th line sux' feelings like last year.

Again, since the thread has to do with the bottom six, I'm only talking about how he's basically an ideal 4th liner who can do everything a large order of magnitude better. The Kings clearly agree we need stability in the bottom six, or we wouldn't even have this thread. He's 'helping the Kings a lot' not by dumping in a mountain of points, but with being able to take a normal shift without losing us ground and, in many cases, gaining us possession time in the opposing zone, can fight even heavyweights who just laugh at AA, hits a lot harder and more effectively, can control the puck without being a turnover machine, and understands what puck possession means. That's visibly assessable, and the stats back it up.

If anything, I can't see what anyone arguing in favor of Andreoff is basing anything at all on other than he fought a couple of dudes in the last few games for like the first time ever people are taking him seriously enough to indulge.

I'm not saying Andreoff is better. Lewis is better than Clifford right? What kind of impact would this team get by having Clifford back instead of Andreoff? Clifford is better than Andreoff, but not even close to Lewis. So what kind of impact would the Kings have with Clifford coming back? A minor improvement is just that, a minor improvement. Nothing more.


Yeah, Laich is straight useless.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Don't take this the wrong way, but Clifford coming back will have at most a1% difference. He does nothing good to suggest that he will help the Kings a lot. Andreoff sucks and so does Clifford.

Is Clifford better than Lewis?

Clifford wouldn't be replacing Lewis would he? He'd be taking Andreoff's spot.

I remember this off-season how much flack Clifford got and quite a few of you guys wanted to keep Nolan/Andreoff. Look at both of there seasons so far. Buffalo fans think Nolan is the worst player on the team.