KHL Contraction Part I (Mod Warning - Post #15)

[Exarz]

Jokerit's minority owner Norilsk Nickel Harjavalta has terminated their cooperation agreement with Ässät in Liiga and Jokerit has removed all KHL references from its website. Probably just a matter of time before the complete withdrawal is announced.

 

[fredrikstad]

Yea that's the gamble. The big money, long-term, is with the NHL. However most players that go over must endure a lower salary (even if they make the NHL) in hopes of earning more later.

If I recall correctly, that's why Kaprizov extended with CSKA two years ago. On the advice of his father he wanted to ensure he was financial secure before attempting the NHL.

And now Kaprizov having a five year,45 million dollar contract. Earning 9 usd from year two in nhl.

 

[Jussi]

And some people said it would never happen!

 

[Faterson]

And some people said it would never happen!

No one could have predicted that Europe would go back from the 21st century to the spirit of the 1930s. All future-oriented projects are then immediately destroyed, of course.

What seemed like a good path moving forward, is no more. New paths will need to be invented.

 

[Jussi]

No one could have predicted that Europe would go back from the 21st century to the spirit of the 1930s. All future-oriented projects are then immediately destroyed, of course.

What seemed like a good path moving forward, is no more. New paths will need to be invented.

It was never a good path. I suggest you read Szymon Szemberg's twitter thread, that I posted in the other thread.

 

[Faterson]

It was never a good path.

I disagree. Slovan's seasons in the KHL was the best league hockey Slovakia got to see since the breakup of the Czecho-Slovak league in the early 90s.

Absolutely no regrets of having participated there, and without inept oligarch-style management, Slovan might still be there until this season.

The KHL is forever destroyed now, so the hope must be for the resurrection of the Czecho-Slovak league, or even a wider one, in one way or another.

The ultimate goal is, as I've always said, the creation of a European division/conference of the NHL.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I disagree. Slovan's seasons in the KHL was the best league hockey Slovakia got to see since the breakup of the Czecho-Slovak league in the early 90s.

Absolutely no regrets of having participated there, and without inept oligarch-style management, Slovan might still be there until this season.

The KHL is forever destroyed now, so the hope must be for the resurrection of the Czecho-Slovak league, or even a wider one, in one way or another.

The ultimate goal is, as I've always said, the creation of a European division/conference of the NHL.

It was the highest quality on the ice Slovakia has seen. You unfortunately do not realize that on-ice performance comes with a high cost level. Slovan's expenses far exceeded their revenues. Those revenues were never going to be high enough to cover more than a fraction of the costs.

That oligarchy was able to take the tens of millions of losses. No other form of ownership could have taken those losses. Without that inept oligarchy, KHL Slovan would never have even been attempted let alone make it as long as they did.

Czecho-Slovak league is at least somewhat realistic.

Good joke about the European division of the NHL. If they can't keep up with KHL expenses, they can't keep up with NHL's. NHL salary cap floor is 3-4 times the entire budget of the biggest European teams.

You think it was a good path because you don't realize how hockey works. If you want unsustainable levels of hockey that you can't afford. If you don't want oligarchies, then you can't have that unsustainably high level hockey. Legitimate businesses are run to break even or make money. Therefore, they have lower levels of hockey that are sustainable. Considering how Slovan ceased to exist well before the invasion of Ukraine, it was a bad path. If the team ceases to exist because they couldn't be supported well enough, then it was a bad path. If they only existed for as long as they did because their ownership used it as a social project rather than a legitimate business, it was a bad path. But since this is you I'm guessing you aren't going to accept being spoonfed basic facts.

 

[Faterson]

basic facts

You and facts, that's a good joke indeed! Your rambling post is full of non-sequiturs that don't deserve a comment. Suffice it to say that, of course, it's possible to conduct business in a standard fashion, and just like the best football teams are located in Europe (while ice hockey as a sport is ridiculously insignificant compared to football on a global level), in the same way it would, naturally, be possible to compile at least a European division of the NHL on the same financial level as overseas. It's less likely to happen in a post-Communist country than in wealthy Scandinavia, but I trust that a European division (if not conference) of the NHL will happen eventually.

 

[Lackhalak]

[QUOTE
Czecho-Slovak league is at least somewhat realistic.
[/QUOTE]

I agree and like my suggestion for the Nordic Countries I suggest the following:
Tier 1

	Teams		Arena	Population (metro)
1	Prague	Sparta Praha	17,383	2,700,000
2	Ostrava	Vitkovice Ridera	10,004	983,000
3	Brno	Kometa	7,700	736,000
4	Plzen	Skoda	8,236	354,000
5	Pardubice	Dynamo	10,194	173,000
6	Prague		13,150	2,700,000
7	Vienna	Capitals	-20,000	2,600,000
8	Innsbruck	HC TWK	7,212	229,000
9	Bratislava	Slovan	10,115	625,000
10	Kosice	HC	8,378	250,000
11	Krakow	Comarch Cracovia	15,000	1,700,000
12	Ljubljana	HK Olimpija	10,500	540,000
13	Budapest		9,479	3,300,000
14	Zagreb	Medvescak	15,200	1,100,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tier 2

	Teams		Arena	Population (metro)
1	Olomouc	HC	5,500	235,000
2	Zlin	PSG Bernani	7,000	193,000
3	Hradec-Kralove	Mountfeild HK	7,700	164,000
4	Ceske Budejovice	CEZ Motor	6,421	195,000
5	Liberec	Bili Tygri	7,250	175,000
6	Graz	99ers	3,800	290,000
7	Linz	Black Wings	4,050	203,000
8	Zilina	Vlci	6,200	156,000
9	Trencin	HK Dukla	6,150	114,000
10	Lodz	LKH	10,400	1,100,000
11	Katowice	GKS	11,500	5,300,000
12	Gdansk	GKS Stoczniowiec	11,409	1,100,000
13	Wroclaw		10,000	1,250,000
14	Debrecen		6,480	329,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tier 3

	Teams		Arena	Population (metro)
1	Karlovy Vary	Energie	7,500	115,000
2	Jihlava	HC Dukla	7,504	112,000
3	Usti Nad Labem	HC Slovan	6,500	119,000
4	Trinec	Ocelari	5,400	214,000
5	Havirov	AZ Heimstaden	5,100	248,000
6	Kladno	Rytiri	5,200	165,000
7	Klagenfurt	EC KAC	5,500	98,000
8	Salzburg	EC Red Bull	3,600	157,000
9	Vienna		7,022	2,600,000
10	Zvolen	HKM	7,038	68,000
11	Nitra	HK	3,600	150,000
12	Wroclaw		10,000	1,250,000
13	Warsaw		4,824	3,100,000
14	Szekesfehervar	AV19	3,600	272,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Czech teams - 17
Austrian teams - 7
Polish teams - 7
Slovak teams - 6
Hungary teams - 3
Slovenia and Croatia - 1 each
What teams would you add or delete?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You and facts, that's a good joke indeed! Your rambling post is full of non-sequiturs that don't deserve a comment. Suffice it to say that, of course, it's possible to conduct business in a standard fashion, and just like the best football teams are located in Europe (while ice hockey as a sport is ridiculously insignificant compared to football on a global level), in the same way it would, naturally, be possible to compile at least a European division of the NHL on the same financial level as overseas. It's less likely to happen in a post-Communist country than in wealthy Scandinavia, but I trust that a European division (if not conference) of the NHL will happen eventually.

*Extremely high level yet unsustainable hockey exists for few seasons in Bratislava before failing and possibly leaving Slovan worse than before*
Faterson: "this is the best thing to happen and was the right path"

 

[Faterson]

unsustainable

You constantly talk **** about things you haven't the foggiest idea about. I live within walking distance of Slovan's arena and have attended games there for decades. The KHL seasons are among the finest highlights in Slovan's 100+ years of history, and they are the finest stretch since the late 1980s – no question about that, and everyone recognizes it.

And yes, Slovan is definitely in better shape today, also because of its financial failure in the KHL. It led to the oligarch selling the club to a standard businessman, an IT entrepreneur. I have zero doubt that the intention was to return to the KHL ASAP. The KHL is dead now, so not gonna happen.

Let's hope Slovan will not remain imprisoned in Slovakia-only league for too long. The Slovak league is excellent for Slovan's farm team, just like the AHL serves the NHL. One of the mistakes made during Slovan's original stint in the KHL was that it left the Slovak league completely, leaving it without a farm team there. Many such mistakes were made in the enthusiasm of joining the KHL, which is exactly why it's so stupid to conclude and keep trumpeting, "it didn't work out the first time, so it would never work out". That's bull****. It might succeed the second time, if done properly and carefully, which is how Slovan's new owner was going about it. But it's a moot point now.

like my suggestion for the Nordic Countries I suggest the following

I appreciate your effort and sympathy, but that's even wilder fantasy than my hope for a European division/conference of the NHL. You might as well pick team names at random out of a hat.

For example, top Czech hockey teams will never, ever play in a common regional league with a Hungarian or Austrian hockey team. Never, ever – mark my word and just forget about it. They don't even want Slovak teams in their league, for heaven's sake. Maybe they will one day change their mind and relent about Slovak teams, but definitely not Austrian or Hungarian.

The only hope is a pan-European league, but the chances for that are slim, I'm afraid. If, however, such a project were construed as the European division or conference of the NHL – then yes, Czechs would definitely be interested. And if Albania, Bosna and Hungary had their teams in such an NHL division/conference, that would be accepted by everyone, too, because NHL standards would ensure that all those teams would be competitive, even if located in non-hockey markets. (Look at Florida, Arizona and California...)

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You constantly talk **** about things you haven't the foggiest idea about. I live within walking distance of Slovan's arena and have attended games there for decades. The KHL seasons are among the finest highlights in Slovan's 100+ years of history, and they are the finest stretch since the late 1980s – no question about that, and everyone recognizes it.

And yes, Slovan is definitely in better shape today, also because of its financial failure in the KHL. It led to the oligarch selling the club to a standard businessman, an IT entrepreneur. I have zero doubt that the intention was to return to the KHL ASAP. The KHL is dead now, so not gonna happen.

Let's hope Slovan will not remain imprisoned in Slovakia-only league for too long. The Slovak league is excellent for Slovan's farm team, just like the AHL serves the NHL. One of the mistakes made during Slovan's original stint in the KHL was that it left the Slovak league completely, leaving it without a farm team there. Many such mistakes were made in the enthusiasm of joining the KHL, which is exactly why it's so stupid to conclude and keep trumpeting, "it didn't work out the first time, so it would never work out". That's bull****. It might succeed the second time, if done properly and carefully, which is how Slovan's new owner was going about it. But it's a moot point now.

High level hockey loses money in Slovakia. Sustainable hockey doesn't lose money in Slovakia.
The oligarchs are the only ones who can afford high level hockey in Slovakia. Legitimate businesses can't afford high level hockey in Slovakia.
You can't have high level hockey in Slovakia without the oligarchs. No legitimate business wants to lose money, therefore no legitimate businesses want high level hockey.

Enjoy continuing to live in your delusion, and continuously proving to everyone in this thread how you don't understand how hockey economics work.

 

[Faterson]

High level hockey loses money in Slovakia.

Your very opening premise is false, which is why all that follows from it is, as mentioned, a long string of non-sequiturs. Give it a rest...

 

[SoundAndFury]

Your very opening premise is false, which is why all that follows from it is, as mentioned, a long string of non-sequiturs. Give it a rest...

I will only give a very crude estimation but.. Žalgiris Kaunas, the team in my city, is one of the biggest basketball brands in Europe. Leads Euroleague in attendance, averaging ~14,5k per game during pre-covid years. Their budget has never eclipsed 10 million euros.

How would KHL Slovan ever collect significantly more than that while playing in a less reputable league, receiving less TV money, less prize money, and playing in a smaller arena where they would likely average ~1/3 lower attendance? Is there something I don't know? Is Slovan selling out the arena with 50e for a ticket or something? Because otherwise, their reasonable budget goal is around the same: 10 million euros. And that's the barest minimum to play in the KHL. And you are going to suck doing it and fans stop attending the games in November.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Your very opening premise is false, which is why all that follows from it is, as mentioned, a long string of non-sequiturs. Give it a rest...

Please provide evidence this statement is false instead of just saying it is false and not backing it up (which is a psychological response known as denial).

There has been numerous pieces of evidence posted by myself and others that support it as factual.

 

[Faterson]

Is there something I don't know?

Of course! Sponsorship deals. If Slovan played in a reputable league, and if it had a reputable owner instead of one that respectable businesses prefer to stay away from, that might collect sufficient funding on a regular basis.

All examples from the past are irrelevant because the combination of conditions I've just described never existed in the KHL era or previously. Slovan had been owned by oligarchs pretty much throughout the post-Communist era, much like most of the assets of Slovakia as a country had been robbed by a miscellaneous assortment of government-friendly oligarchs. Just your regular tale of a post-Communist gubernia – just as would be reasonable to expect. It may take 40 years for Slovakia to undo the damage inflicted on the country by 40 years of Russia-imposed Communist rule.

Other than that, your post is full of strawmen where you purport to be arguing against positions that I have never held or uttered.

But the main thing is as I explained it above: impossible to draw any conclusions about Slovan based on its past, because Slovan has never had standard business ownership until very recently.

And, there is currently no reputable league that Slovan might realistically join, so it's a purely theoretical exercise to be arguing about any of this. We've arrived at a dead-end, and there seems to be no hopeful prospect in sight.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Other than that, your post is full of strawmen where you purport to be arguing against positions that I have never held or uttered.

Uhm what?

 

[Faterson]

Well, of course. Re-read your post, for example the beginning of the second paragraph. I have no idea with whom you're arguing there (all those preposterous propositions you listed), but it sure ain't me!

Anyway, as mentioned, there's nothing to discuss right now. Slovan is imprisoned in the Slovak league, and there's no realistic improvement in sight.

 

[ozo]

Well, of course. Re-read your post, for example the beginning of the second paragraph. I have no idea with whom you're arguing there (all those preposterous propositions you listed), but it sure ain't me!

Anyway, as mentioned, there's nothing to discuss right now. Slovan is imprisoned in the Slovak league, and there's no realistic improvement in sight.

Slovan is not imprisoned by Slovak league, it is imprisoned by reality.

 

[Faterson]

That's saying the same thing in two ways.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well, of course. Re-read your post, for example the beginning of the second paragraph. I have no idea with whom you're arguing there (all those preposterous propositions you listed), but it sure ain't me!

That's not an argument, that's an illustration of my point that a financially healthy franchise in Eastern Europe has a certain hard cap on the income it can generate. I'm not sure what are you calling a strawman or even know what strawman is since it was simply a direct comparison in order to better grasp what the optimized Slovan budget could be.

You still provided 0 sensible evidence to refute any of the points except for spinning wheels about ownership yet another time. You mentioned "sponsorship deals" without providing any details why would Slovan's sponsorship deals would/could be significantly more lucrative than those of Žalgiris.

You keep repeating Slovan can reach a certain budget size without providing even conjectural, nevermind factual, evidence of how is that supposed to happen. You keep repeating examples from the past are irrelevant. Ok, fair enough. So are examples from other countries irrelevant as well? Slovan is in some kind of super unique bubble where they magically have 2 times bigger earning power?

Like I had no horse in this race, I wasn't really into this discussion, I don't really care about Slovan or KHL expansion pipe dreams. But the way you carried this discussion out is just appalling.

 

[Lackhalak]

 

[alko]

Anyone here who understand Swedish?

 

[Exarz]

Basically just a confirmation of the "speculations" that Jokerit is leaving the KHL permanently according to Finnish MTV

 

[Rigafan]

So Dinamo Riga have left, however the new ruling/law states (from Latvian government) that people born in the Soviet days are still able to do business and operate with Russia. Are we going to see Dinamo Riga based in Moscow or something? I wouldn't be a fan of such project but there isn't much news regarding Dinamo, unlike Jokerit for example.