Player Discussion Kevin Shattenkirk

[McRanger]

Shattenkirk has played about 50 minutes of regular season hockey since January. He also played all of last year with a knee injury that required surgery.

I don't think its a stretch to think he's still getting his game back together.

 

[Machinehead]

Stop lol

Then show me the evidence that suggests he was sheltered in St. Louis.

 

[True Blue]

I didn't "make" the stats do anything. They are what they are.

It's viewings that can be interpreted in whatever way you want. You've got that backwards.

It's completely unfounded that he was sheltered in St. Louis, but that will be ignored like any other evidence.

We have gone through this mulberry bush before. Stats view things with blinders on. We have covered this ad nauseum. See the Corsi or /60 debates.

It is hardly unfounded. The Blues did not want him out there during any defensive draws or against the opposition's top 6,

 

[RangerBoy]

 

[Machinehead]

We have gone through this mulberry bush before. Stats view things with blinders on. We have covered this ad nauseum. See the Corsi or /60 debates.

It is hardly unfounded. The Blues did not want him out there during any defensive draws or against the opposition's top 6,

Except he was given second-pair QoC and routinely did play against the top six.

 

[NYR]

Then show me the evidence that suggests he was sheltered in St. Louis.

Dude, I'm not looking to argue but it's the scope in which you use that evidence that's has quite a few holes in it.

If we go back to day one of this signing, we argued for an entire summer over Shattenkirk's abilities and you just kept on throwing AS at everything without ever having watched/ or watched a limited amount of his play.

I also had the same opinions about Smith and Zib.
Then what happened?
Smith couldn't even make it through half a season and the all mighty Zib scored an elite level 13 5v5 points.

Now he we are today.

Who won this ridiculous war between Advanced Stats and the Eye Test thus far?

And I'm not looking to just say I told you so but I told you so lol

AS can be very useful tool but when it comes to an overall evaluation of a player, I really think you should try and incorporate AV into a much improved evaluation plan IMO..

 

[True Blue]

Shattenkirk has played about 50 minutes of regular season hockey since January. He also played all of last year with a knee injury that required surgery.

I don't think its a stretch to think he's still getting his game back together.

I certainly hope that you are right.

 

[Machinehead]

Dude, I'm not looking to argue but it's the scope in which you use that evidence that's has quite a few holes in it.

If we go back to day one of this signing, we argued for an entire summer over Shattenkirk's abilities and you just kept on throwing AS at everything without ever having watched/ or watched a limited amount of his play.

I also had the same opinions about Smith and Zib.
Then what happened?
Smith couldn't even make it through half a season and the all mighty Zib scored an elite level 13 5v5 points.

Now he we are today.

Who won this ridiculous war between Advanced Stats and the Eye Test thus far?

And I'm not looking to just say I told you so but I told you so lol

AS can be very useful tool but when it comes to an overall evaluation of a player, I really think you should try and incorporate AV into a much improved evaluation plan IMO..

So I'm guessing you don't have the evidence that he was sheltered in St. Louis?

 

[NYR]

So I'm guessing you don't have the evidence that he was sheltered in St. Louis?

He was a 2nd pairing PP specialist that didn't have to go against top competition.
That is sheltering a player.

What does that have to do with today anyway?

He really needs to find his game and soon IMO..

 

[Machinehead]

He was a 2nd pairing PP specialist that didn't have to go against top competition.
That is sheltering a player.

What does that have to do with today anyway?

He really needs to find his game and soon IMO..

That's not sheltering a player. Second pair D are not sheltered.

Hell, most third pair D aren't even sheltered.

 

[NYR]

That's not sheltering a player. Second pair D are not sheltered.

Hell, most third pair D aren't even sheltered.

If you're keeping a certain player away from certain match ups then that is most definitely sheltering a player..

Listen.. If we completely eliminate that from the conversation and just look at where's he's been playing these last few years, my question is.. Why the hell would he be penciled onto the top pairing for this team in the first place?

That is a terrible move as has been witnessed.

 

[Machinehead]

If you're keeping a certain player away from certain match ups then that is most definitely sheltering a player..

Listen.. If we completely eliminate that from the conversation and just look at where's he's been playing these last few years, my question is.. Why the hell would he be penciled onto the top pairing for this team in the first place?

That is a terrible move as has been witnessed.

Who has penciled him into the top pairing?

He's always been on the 2nd pair and he's been on the 2nd pair here. His QoC in STL is similar to his QoC here.

I don't understand the narrative that the Rangers took an extremely sheltered player and threw him to the wolves. The usage has been similar.

 

[NYR]

Who has penciled him into the top pairing?

He's always been on the 2nd pair and he's been on the 2nd pair here. His QoC in STL is similar to his QoC here.

I don't understand the narrative that the Rangers took an extremely sheltered player and threw him to the wolves. The usage has been similar.

Every single writer in the press along with nearly every poster on this board, Quinn and yourself included had him penciled next to Skjei on the top pair so let's not act surprised.

To say they threw him to the wolves would be an understatement lol

 

[SA16]

The term "sheltered" should be permanently banned from all hockey discussions. It's only use to make "maximizing a players ability" sound like a negative.

 

[Machinehead]

Every single writer in the press along with nearly every poster on this board, Quinn and yourself included had him penciled next to Skjei on the top pair so let's not act surprised.

To say they threw him to the wolves would be an understatement lol

I'm on record saying I hated the Skjei-Shattenkirk pairing.

And when they were paired together, we still had McDonagh, so don't sit there and lie.

 

[Off Sides]

The QoC stuff needs some work.

 

[NYR]

I'm on record saying I hated the Skjei-Shattenkirk pairing.

And when they were paired together, we still had McDonagh, so don't sit there and lie.

OK maybe not you or me but it was a given to the rest of the free world.

 

[Machinehead]

The term "sheltered" should be permanently banned from all hockey discussions. It's only use to make "maximizing a players ability" sound like a negative.

Very, very few players are actually "sheltered" anyway, and almost all of them are non-consequential third pairing D.

There's not a top 4 D in the NHL who's sheltered. It's not possible.

 

[Crease]

The term "sheltered" should be permanently banned from all hockey discussions. It's only use to make "maximizing a players ability" sound like a negative.

I don't disagree. I will say, though, that the complaints lobbied against Shattenkirk stem from the fact that he's paid like an all-situation guy. He's not an all-situation guy, never was, and they simply brought him in to be the ever-elusive puck-moving PP QB like Yandle, Boyle, McCabe, and Redden before him.

I don't really have any complaints directed towards Shattenkirk. He is what he always was, except now he's 29 and has injury history. Oh well. Maybe expectations need to be tempered because any defense corps headlined and headpaid by him cannot be reasonably expected to perform all that well.

 

[SA16]

Very, very few players are actually "sheltered" anyway, and almost all of them are non-consequential third pairing D.

There's not a top 4 D in the NHL who's sheltered. It's not possible.

Every Norris trophy winner over the last 10 years other than Lidstrom has got "sheltered" minutes in terms of deployment. Not a single one (again, other than Lidstrom) of them has even had average defensive zone deployment. They are almost all in the top 25% least d-zone starts. This includes guys considered strong defensively like Keith, Doughty, and Chara.

 

[Machinehead]

Every Norris trophy winner over the last 10 years other than Lidstrom has got "sheltered" minutes in terms of deployment. Not a single one (again, other than Lidstrom) of them has even had average defensive zone deployment. They are almost all in the top 25% least d-zone starts. This includes guys considered strong defensively like Keith, Doughty, and Chara.

Good defensemen score so coaches put them in a position to score. Shocking development.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't disagree. I will say, though, that the complaints lobbied against Shattenkirk stem from the fact that he's paid like an all-situation guy. He's not an all-situation guy, never was, and they simply brought him in to be the ever-elusive puck-moving PP QB like Yandle, Boyle, McCabe, and Redden before him.

I don't really have any complaints directed towards Shattenkirk. He is what he always was, except now he's 29 and has injury history. Oh well. Maybe expectations need to be tempered because any defense corps headlined and headpaid by him cannot be reasonably expected to perform all that well.

Funny you mention Yandle, because he's pretty much an all-situations guy now. Matter of fact, you could argue he's a shutdown guy. Got absolutely destroyed in zone starts and QoC in 17-18. Still put up 56 points and respectable metrics.

You know, since some posters want to play the "I told you so" game.

 

[NYR]

Funny you mention Yandle, because he's pretty much an all-situations guy now. Matter of fact, you could argue he's a shutdown guy. Got absolutely destroyed in zone starts and QoC in 17-18. Still put up 56 points and respectable metrics.

You know, since some posters want to play the "I told you so" game.

You already lost that game in spades but I'd take Yandle over Shatty in a heartbeat.

 

[Rempe73]

I'm not gonna lie, but he looks like a player who declined over the summer. Declined a lot. Troubling play thus far.

I heard at least Smith lost 21 pounds over the summer

 

[nevesis]

Sitting Shattenkirk and not Staal....f***ing crime against humanity. Quinn already being stupid.