Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

[Run the Jewels]

I would say I'm very middle ground on for/against Holland but reading some of these posts makes me wanna bang my head against the wall. Who the hell has ever said any of those guys are irreplaceable? Its made up crap like that thats making this board harder and harder to come read. Yes Nyquist was a good example of overripening a player for too long. But did anyone actually want Nyquist up and playing in the role that Tootoo had? The wings were a lot better back then, they operated differently then they do now so why do these points keep getting beaten on like a dead horse. Holland is on record talking about how they want Rasmussen on the team next year when hes still junior eligible, Larkin came up early, theres talk about Cholowski making the team. Get over what happened 5 years ago when the wings were still contenders and quit beating the dead horse already

The wings are loyal to a fault sure, but Cleary was a key player in a stanley cup win. Essential, no but a key top 6 physical player that year. Players get paid when they win cups, thats why for every person that chirps Chicago for having Toews contract I laugh at. They got 3 cups outta him at a bargain thats how the NHL works. Did Holland give out way too many bad contracts, definitely. But you dont need to lie about what people are saying and calling guys like Tootoo essential, you sound ridiculous trying to make a point like that

Eh, I've been here for just about 12 years. I supported Holland plenty and gave him the benefit of the doubt most of the time. One thing I always appreciated about this place was there was always someone who was critical, even during the good times. I remember Captain Bob always being a reliable voice of criticism for all things Red Wings during the Glory days. I never whined or said his negativity was going to force me to stop visiting. But that's just me.

By any objective measure this franchise is in rough shape. Some people will want to discuss the factors that led us here. People used to misinterpret my viewpoint of wanting to go with a youth movement and would say "LOL you want to be the Oilers!!" I never whined or threatened to leave.

I'm looking forward to the draft. My hope with Craig Custance putting out an article a few weeks ago about how Jack Hughes could be a franchise saving player was due to some inside info he has that the Wings are going to try to put themselves in great position to draft him. That could line up with Holland's 2 year extension.

I'm sorry I can't blow sunshine with regard to the previous decisions management has made. I think the past 5 years have indicated my viewpoint wasn't as crazy as some here thought. I also hope this place will continue to value intelligent and reasonable criticism as it always had in the past.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Eh, I've been here for just about 12 years. I supported Holland plenty and gave him the benefit of the doubt most of the time. One thing I always appreciated about this place was there was always someone who was critical, even during the good times. I remember Captain Bob always being a reliable voice of criticism for all things Red Wings during the Glory days. I never whined or said his negativity was going to force me to stop visiting. But that's just me.

By any objective measure this franchise is in rough shape. Some people will want to discuss the factors that led us here. People used to misinterpret my viewpoint of wanting to go with a youth movement and would say "LOL you want to be the Oilers!!" I never whined or threatened to leave.

I'm looking forward to the draft. My hope with Craig Custance putting out an article a few weeks ago about how Jack Hughes could be a franchise saving player was due to some inside info he has that the Wings are going to try to put themselves in great position to draft him. That could line up with Holland's 2 year extension.

I'm sorry I can't blow sunshine with regard to the previous decisions management has made. I think the past 5 years have indicated my viewpoint wasn't as crazy as some here thought. I also hope this place will continue to value intelligent and reasonable criticism as it always had in the past.

There is a difference between being critical and having a negative opinion when someone else has a positive opinion and what has recently been going on here.

There is a huge groundswell of "Holland is a blibbering nincompoop who sucks at his job and this team will always suck until they fire his ass."

Not, "he's signed some bad contracts and didn't adequately prepare for the exodus of one of the top 3 D of all time and the impending departure of two more all time Wings greats", but "He's just going to continue to fill up our cap space with 40 year old players so we can suck forever".

Hell, if you wanted to fire Ken Holland for his performance from 2012-now, you'd be well within the bounds of logic to do so. But he is not some boogeyman nor is he representative of some toxic system we need to expel before we will be good again. "The Red Wings Way" is good hockey. Building a team based on loyalty and continuity is not an awful way to go about it.

I would rather have clear expectations and support systems in my organization than to fall into complete dysfunction like Toronto pre-Shanny or Edmonton with Kevin Lowe.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Building a team where loyalty trumps on ice/field/court performance is a terrible philosophy. It sounds nice, but it makes no sense in pro sports. We end up seeing people not being held accountable for their actions. Or their failures are excused because of past successes.

Now i know you weren't implying that loyalty trumps everything, but eventually you start seeing one bad decision excused because of loyalty and then another and another and eventually you get the most expensive roster in the league, while at the same time icing one of the worst rosters in the league.

Ken Holland's system doesn't work anymore. Firing Kenny won't fix everything. It might not fix anything. It doesn't really matter who your GM or coach is if the team doesn't have elite talent and/or their owner sucks. However that doesn't mean you should keep a GM that made a lot of poor decisions because he used to be good at his job. That's just a really bad reason to keep people employed.

 

[Dotter]

Excuses, excuses. Detroit doesn't have the caproom to make a trade.
What if AA + a 2nd gets you Vatananen.
They don't have the assets or the room.
Whose fault is that?

You're blaming him for something that never happened, and probably won't be happening in the foreseeable future due currently rebuilding?

 

[Redder Winger]

Listen to his press conferences ... about the time Babcock left to now.
Mentally, he's not with it. He's constantly at loss. He sounds legitimately bewildered and pained by what's happening to his team. And he seemingly has no idea why his moves were the wrong moves.
Blithering is almost a perfect word to describe him.

 

[Redder Winger]

You're blaming him for something that never happened, and probably won't be happening in the foreseeable future due currently rebuilding?

Yeah, I blame him for not have the cap room to make potential moves.
That's a pretty "out there" opinion.

 

[Dotter]

Yeah, I blame him for not have the cap room to make potential moves.
That's a pretty "out there" opinion.

If he needs cap room he can just sell off a couple garbage players like Sheahan for 3rds and BOOM! he'll have all the money he needs. Problem solved, win-win all in one simple snap of the finger.

But chances are slim to none he'll need cap room to make your far-out-there hypothetical trade during a rebuild. AA might be traded, but probably not for a 26+ year old player. He'l be past his prime by the time DRWs are ready to compete. So what's the point?

 

[Redder Winger]

If he needs cap room he can just sell off a couple garbage players like Sheahan for 3rds and BOOM! he'll have all the money he needs. Problem solved, win-win all in one simple snap of the finger.

But chances are slim to none he'll need cap room to make your far-out-there hypothetical trade during a rebuild. AA might be traded, but probably not for a 26+ year old player. He'l be past his prime by the time DRWs are ready to compete. So what's the point?

You're actually telling us why it's not important to have caproom when you're the among worst teams in the NHL.
I admire your pluck.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Building a team where loyalty trumps on ice/field/court performance is a terrible philosophy. It sounds nice, but it makes no sense in pro sports. We end up seeing people not being held accountable for their actions. Or their failures are excused because of past successes.

Now i know you weren't implying that loyalty trumps everything, but eventually you start seeing one bad decision excused because of loyalty and then another and another and eventually you get the most expensive roster in the league, while at the same time icing one of the worst rosters in the league.

Ken Holland's system doesn't work anymore. Firing Kenny won't fix everything. It might not fix anything. It doesn't really matter who your GM or coach is if the team doesn't have elite talent and/or their owner sucks. However that doesn't mean you should keep a GM that made a lot of poor decisions because he used to be good at his job. That's just a really bad reason to keep people employed.

I just think it's a lot safer philosophy to hold onto a good man for too long than it is to kick him out too soon. And it really isn't fair to say "Ken Holland's system doesn't work anymore"... when we are in the same decade as the team being at the top of the heap. When you essentially have teams all around the NHL still following it.

****, what Tampa is doing is the Red Wings Way. They've just had better source material, most of which they got before Stevie Y was there. But there is something very Ken Holland-esque about the re-signing of Stamkos, the good relationship with Kucherov to where he didn't sign for a ball-busting deal when he could, that Hedman was locked down, Palat locked down, Killorn locked down.

It absolutely does matter who the coach/GM is. You can lay the foundation for a vast improvement before you get the guys there. You can build an environment that when you finally do land Rasmus Dahlin, you're ****ing rolling and ready to go as opposed to "okay, we have a good player now, let's figure out from there."

Firing Ken Holland because you want a pound of flesh for him not being able to pull off a miracle a second time is misguided. If you have a better candidate top of mind who you can quanitfiably prove would do a better job with a young team, that's one thing. Firing him because "it'll be different even if it's not better" is a bad.

You can be angry about Holland's inefficient contracts, but you have to give him credit for adding some very good young talent, even in the face of the league literally changing the rules about team building on him multiple times.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Listen to his press conferences ... about the time Babcock left to now.
Mentally, he's not with it. He's constantly at loss. He sounds legitimately bewildered and pained by what's happening to his team. And he seemingly has no idea why his moves were the wrong moves.
Blithering is almost a perfect word to describe him.

You want to know why people usually respond to your posts in a somewhat rude manner or don't take your arguments very seriously?

It is stuff like this.

Ken Holland is not bewildered about what the team's issues are. And "Mentally he's not with it"? The hell? Not valuing in a hockey player what Redder Winger values in a hockey player is not anywhere close to grounds to question a man's mental acuity.

The Wings have had players that looked like they could potentially handle a bigger role in lesser time (Nyquist, Tatar, Ericsson, Abby, DeKeyser, etc.) who have wilted pretty badly when given the reins at the top. They have had guys signed to long term deals go south multiple years early (Kronwall, Z) or up and deciding they wanted to quit one week after pushing for a 5 year deal (Datsyuk).

No, Ken Holland has not been very good. No, Ken Holland is not exempt from criticism. But many of the wounds inflicted on this roster came about because they leaned on guys who looked like they could be leaned on and it bit them on the ass. If I'm given the choice between trusting my guys to do their jobs or unceremoniously pitching them out on their asses before I give them that shot... I'm doing the same damn thing Holland did.*

*- Now, he shouldn't have signed Helm to what he got, signed Cleary year over year, signed Sammy to his 2 year deal, nor kept re-upping Bertuzzi at the end there. There are limits to what you can explain by loyalty or team building ideas.

 

[Frk It]

****, what Tampa is doing is the Red Wings Way. They've just had better source material, most of which they got before Stevie Y was there. But there is something very Ken Holland-esque about the re-signing of Stamkos, the good relationship with Kucherov to where he didn't sign for a ball-busting deal when he could, that Hedman was locked down, Palat locked down, Killorn locked down.

I was trying to stay out of this thread, because it's just a lot of toxic crap going back and forth.

But I don't think this is true. Stevie got some of those team-friendly deals by playing hardball. We are in this cap mess because we weren't willing to play hardball with guys like Helm and Abby, and let those types of guys walk. We have kind of been on opposite sides of the spectrum there.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I was trying to stay out of this thread, because it's just a lot of toxic crap going back and forth.

But I don't think this is true. Stevie got some of those team-friendly deals by playing hardball. We are in this cap mess because we weren't willing to play hardball with guys like Helm and Abby, and let those types of guys walk. We have kind of been on opposite sides of the spectrum there.

You do have a point. But we did play hardball with AA. And with guys like Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, etc. exiting their ELC. And Stevie also had a few guys where he went with their wants (Killorn, Salo). I mean, it's playing hardball with Stamkos to give him 8.5M x 8... but really, you're still giving him 72M to play hockey in Florida. Hedman is still getting a whole bunch of money.

And Holland played hardball with Datsyuk, it just wasn't reported at the time. Dats was dead set on returning a year earlier, and Holland said "**** no, we'll toll your contract". He played hardball with AA and didn't bend to his agent with the KHL nonsense... which holy **** would have opened a can of worms on Mantha, Larkin, Rasmussen, 1st round pick this year's contract negotiations.

It is much much easier to play hardball or call a player's bluff on a contract negotiation when you're in Florida, it's warm as ****, the player doesn't have to pay state tax and/or you can offer them 8 years when everyone else can offer 7.

I mean, it's kinda easy to call Stamkos's bluff on leaving when another org would have to offer 12-14M a year depending on where they were located to match what 8x8.5 gives him in Tampa.

But the policy of taking care of your own is more what I was speaking about. When the Wings were on top of the world, they didn't make huge mega splashes in the FA pool, usually. They traded for guys at the TDL and extended them. They traded for a guy, got him to buy into the system, and rolled. That's what Tampa is doing. That's what they're going to try to do with McD. Get him there and negotiate with a current member of your team rather than someone you're trying to woo.