Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Claypool, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    People that are Pro Holland don't typically come out in droves in an ultra aggressive manner. If someone posted "Every move Holland has made over the past 5 years has been genius, its not his fault fans are idiots" I would 100% call them out.

    I find there are three types of takes when it comes to Holland , there are people that simply defend anything Holland does which truthfully is just a tiny handful of posters.

    There are people who take look at every move individually and praise when he does good, but criticize when he does bad. (this is how I choose to look at it).

    Then there are people that have so much hate/anger towards Holland that they will take everything to the extreme. We all know who they are, just look for the ******* which is a clear sign of an emotional post.

    I also find that those who hate Holland tend to twist what other posters say around on them which also is grounds for being called out IMO. For example, and it happened to me earlier. I flat out said that Abby's contract was a bad one, but that I didn't think it was "mortgaging our future". Unfortunately on here, if you don call Holland "A ****ing idiot" you are accused of defending him.
    I will say Abby's contract was a bad deal, I wont say "Its the worst move ever and is going to cripple us!!!! Holland's an idiot!!!!!"

    Tell me this; If its ridiculous in your mind to assume Holland will be successful with a re-build due to his great run from '98-'11, is it not just as ridiculous to assume he is destined for failure based on his poor run from '12-'17?

    I think this is clear, Holland is great at keeping a great team together when he has a strong core, he re-build on the fly once successful (granted having a franchise D-man in his prime was a HUGE help), and he re-build on he fly once miserably.
    How will he fair in a real re-build? I don't know. We have never seen Ken Holland in full re-build mode before, so all I can go off of is what he has done since the streak ended, and based on the moves he has made since then (which I have liked outside of Daley) I do think he can do it. Even the Mrazek trade, at the time I didnt like it, but I can now admit I was wrong about that.

    As far as Sheahan goes, we all saw what he did here, what he is doing on Pittsburgh on a loaded roster is irrelevant to me. I was fine with a 3rd for him because I believe that had we waited his value would have kept getting lower and lower and lower. It was time to move on.

    With this roster, if other teams have interest in any of our players that are not named Larkin or Mantha, or are not top prospects of ours in the AHL/CHL etc. I'm fine with moving them if the return is worth it. I don't subscribe to the theory "I wont trade Sheahan because Helm should go first". Of course I would have preferred to move a Helm instead, but we aren't moving Helm for a 3rd due to Holland's past mistake of a bad contract.

    I will await your rant about how I am idiot/apologist etc.
     
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  2. lomekian

    lomekian Registered User

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    We just have to hope they get the balance right. There is no doubt that the wings roster has been on the small side for much of the 'post-contender' period.

    I think everyone on here wants to see a greater priority on skill this draft
     
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  3. TCNorthstars

    TCNorthstars Registered User

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    Sheehan played 10:45 min at even strength. 4 min on the pk.
     
  4. Henkka

    Henkka Registered User

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    Got a good laugh. Keep working man. Keep working hard.

    MOD
     
    Last edited by moderator Winger98: Apr 13, 2018
  5. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    Over the course of the regular season he put up 30+ points and was top9 in TOI. And the fact they trusted him to over 4 minutes on the PK isn't a knock on him. He got less than 10 mins TOI tonight, though.

    Sheahan looked pretty snake bit here and I don't remember many people upset that he was moved. And he's landed in a nice spot in Pittsburgh. But if that 30 point, top9 forward thing becomes normal it looks kinda bad on us.
     
  6. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

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    Not really.
     
  7. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Yeah? So? He's playing behind 2 hall of famers and a legit 2nd line center.
     
  8. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    No of course not.
    Holland doesn't make mistakes.
     
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  9. Henkka

    Henkka Registered User

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    But Riley Sheahan did.

    - He did the DUI.
    - And Brendan Smith did give the Driver's Licence for an underaged guy (Sheahan). That's a ****ing crime.

    These are the mistakes Ken Holland didn't do.

    But those old ghosts from the past did affect for Sheahan years after. Just read that one Custance's Athletic article, and you understand. That old DUI case did come a weightload for Sheahan, because the policeman who did help him over the case, unluckily died in a car accident on May 2016. After that, Sheahan's level dropped drastically.

    There was nothing physically wrong on Riley Sheahan at season 2016-17, but he looked mentally lost. Guy needed a change of scenery, to get over this case. Holland more of did a favor for him. But Red Wings could not have got any gains of Sheahan anymore. All the negative past for Sheahan is located at Grand Rapids/Detroit, and all the positivity for Sheahan is located somewhere else, like Pittsburgh.

    And only mistakes here was the mistakes the PLAYERS did on their free time.

    Riley Sheahan and Brendan Smith have now been turned to 3 draft picks, as our organization moves on. That's what GM's do. They deal with **** happening and move on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  10. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Goodness,
    For one, have I not been civil to you?

    Secondly, do you honestly think the pro-holland posters don't throw insults around?

    Idiot. Whiner. Crybaby. Moron. Troll.
    I've been called all these things here by the people you say aren't "ultra aggressive."

    People are sick of watching Holland watch Rome burn.
    Now that it's burned to the ground, we don't think he's the guy to rebuild it - when he seemingly had NO IDEA it was on fire until it was ashes.

    As for Holland's 98-to-09 run, Ken Holland didn't build it.
    He retooled it.

    And his retooling after the salary cap, IMO, is his greatest feat.

    But as I've said here and elsewhere... he quickly abandoned all those things that made his retooling so successful.

    He made the correct assumption that in the salary cap world, you needed cheap depth if you were going to maintain your elite talent.

    So in 2005-06, he brought in Cleary, Osgood, Lilja and Samuelsson - all paid under $1M.

    He bought out Hatcher, Whitney and a fan favorite in McCarty.
    Those were the right choices.

    After the 07 conference final loss, he made the right moves.
    He let Robert Lang walk (Pretty ballsy in some ways). He let Schneider walk (pretty ballsy for Holland). He got rid of Jason Williams (lazy, useless slug). Then he signed Rafalski. He traded for Stuart. He brought in cheap depth guys.

    The change in roster from 07 to 08 was massive.
    He wasn't complacent. He was aggressive.

    The priority was elite talent.
    But the wheels started falling off with the 5-year contract to Cleary.
    In the cap era, you sign Cleary to cheap deal. Let him prove himself and let him get paid by some other team.
    And then you guy sign your Patrick Eaves or whoever on a dirty cheap contract to replace him.

    But no. That 5-year contract to Cleary was the dagger that forced Holland to choose between Hossa and Franzen. And he chose wrong.

    And the rest is history.
    Bringing back Bertuzzi. Resigning Bertuzzi. Bringing back Samuelsson. Signing Colaicovov. Modano. Alfredsson. Weiss. Abdelkader. Helm. Ericsson. Nielsen. Howard.


    Misreading the market. Signing embarassingly stupid contracts for no good reason.

    Overstuffing rosters with 3rd and 4th liners and 3rd pairing defenseman -- which only served to blockade youngsters from coming up to the NHL, and even kept some highly regarded prospects on the AHL 4th line or in the pressbox.
    All while boasting about "the streak." The kind of bull**** streak Wings fans would have laughed at only 5 years prior.


    It's been **** after **** after **** after ****.

    And, just so we're clear. I didn't insult you. I didn't call you a homer or apologist.
    But it's clear that you've been arguing on their side for the last few weeks.
     
  11. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Jesus Christ.
     
  12. Henkka

    Henkka Registered User

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    Oh, you found a way to bash Cleary. How surprising.

    - Holland signed Cleary for his 5-year extension in March 2008.
    - Hossa called to Detroit in July 2008.
    - Anybody didn't know anything about a Hossa possibility even for the 2008-09 season on that time when Cleary was signed.
    - Hossa/Franzen -decisions happened at 2009. Franzen signed April 2009.

    I'm quite sure the salary cap stagnation for 2009-10 season wasn't known at March 2008 when Cleary was signed.

    My god you are trying to re-write the history, on your Holland-bashing purposes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  13. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Do you not understand that the Red Wings signed Cleary and that his cap hit had implications for a team that would have Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen need UFA contracts?

    Do you not understand the overall point?
    That if you want to keep ELITE TALENT, you have to sacrifice depth?

    That Cleary was valuable to Detroit when he was a cheap $450,000 and $650,000 player? But that his $2.8M contract with NTC had cap implications that impaired the Wings' ability to keep elite talent on the roster?

    If you want good players, you have to sacrifice somewhere.

    What made holland able to retool the Red Wings in 05 was that he recognized where he needed to sacrifice. In a salary cap world, players get paid.
    Depth veterans?
    Only the foolish GMs pay them
     
  14. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    First Bold: That is fair, and in all sincerity my last line was too far. In retrospect I was projecting what annoyed me about other people onto you. While you may speak that way about Holland lol, you have never called me an idiot etc. My issue is when people take things to far, and that comment was too far. I see the hypocrisy, and I will own. I apologize for that last line.

    Second Bold: I don't notice as much from the Pro Holland crowd/not anti Holland crowd. Maybe I dont see it, full disclosure I dont read everything. (I don't mean this sarcastically, I can see how it may read that way)

    Third Bold: I agree with everything you are saying in your assessment '98-'09

    Final Section after your Cleary comment: For the most part I actually agree with most of this, there are some parts I don't but there is no reason to argue semantics. I think they focused more on keeping the streak alive opposed to winning a cup, and I agree that was a mistake. Where we differ, is I do believe that the philosophy has changed, and I am ok with Holland staying in charge. I understand why some people have an issue though.

    I think the reason why it may seem I'm on "that side" is because I am grateful for what the Wings have provided me as a fan for almost 30 years, and compared to my other teams (Jays/Raptors/Lions), I had had more enjoyment/entertainment from the Wings then the other teams combined and Holland was a big part of that. So when people are just nasty & vicious towards him, it annoys me and I call them out (the Abby contract/mortgaging the future thing as an example). That's where I am coming from.

    After this last post, I think we may agree on more then you realize.
     
  15. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Of all the people here arguing with me on a constant basis, you do so without being snide and aggressive. So I respect that.

    My bone of contention is that I think there was a way to ATTEMPT to maintain the Red Wings elite status while rebuilding. The fall might have been inevitable, but we'd be in a much better place.
     
  16. Nut Upstrom

    Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    I doubt I could find five posts of yours when you were not being snide, aggressive or both. You get what you give in life, it's silly to see you playing the victim card considering the disrespect you show others on a constant basis.
    Kliq generally posts with a modicum of courtesy toward others, it is nice to hear that you respect that in someone else, but that makes it more puzzling that you do not hold yourself to the same standard. The type of responses you get are the type of responses you've earned, no one on here is snide, aggressive or rude just for the fun of it or just because someone holds a different opinion.

    As for your bone of contention, everyone knows things could have been done differently, we all understand that years of the possible rebuild were farted away so they could sell prospects to extend the streak. Why the constant harping on that point? Everyone understands that. Many of us are trying to reset to our present day plight - if you can't do that, at least find something semi-recent to complain about. Dredging up names like Samuelsson, Lang and Bertuzzi is just redundant unless you're trying to give us a team history lesson. None of those names have any bearing on what management is doing now. While I get the frustration over many of the moves made in years past, the organization has finally moved past that mode of thinking and it might be more productive, from a discussion stand point, to focus on the moves we've made more recently or those we might potentially make going forward.
     
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  17. Ezekial

    Ezekial Fil the Thrill

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    I still can't get over "it's like arguing politics with a partisan"
     
  18. Red Stanley

    Red Stanley Registered User

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    2 weeks till the lottery ...
     
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  19. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    I don't get snide with anyone until they've dinged me about 5-6 times.
    Your only responses to my posts have been silly personal criticisms. So I don't have much time for your stuff.
     
  20. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    We are going to need a GDT for it. Easily the biggest night of our season.
     
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  21. Zetterberg4Captain

    Zetterberg4Captain Registered User

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    easily the biggest night since 2009 SCF
     
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  22. chances14

    chances14 Registered User

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    and it will probably wind up being as big a disappointment as that was
     
  23. Run the Jewels

    Run the Jewels Registered User

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    On the one hand it's not a surprise he looks better on a team that had 20 more ROW than Detroit. He's playing with better players. On the other he looked like he could be a better version of Abby back when we had a good coach. I'm not comparing physical attributes, merely point production and advanced stats.

    With all that being said, I'm an advocate of trading guys who aren't going to be part of the core. We're rarely going to get maximum value, Tatar is likely an exception, but that's one of the downsides of the current management team and coach.
     
  24. Run the Jewels

    Run the Jewels Registered User

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    Yep, this is what some of us have argued since 2012. Hell, our own prospects who are dirt cheap can often replace these guys the pro-Holland people consider *irreplaceable*. The most salient example was Nyquist being called up and keeping the playoff steak alive when essential MEN like Cleary, Sammy, Bert and Tootoo were pretty much useless.

    There is no downside to having cap dollars available and decent prospects to trade in order to work the trade angle and better yourself when a team needs cap relief. None.
     
  25. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    I would love for you to show me one quote where someone calls Abby or Helm or Nielsen "irreplaceable". What you are doing is clear, you are putting out there the narrative that people who disagree with you have such an extreme and stupid stance, that it makes your stance appear to be correct. Other then MAYBE one poster (and I even doubt that), I dont think anyone has called those guys irreplaceable.
     

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