Ken Holland End of Season Press Conference

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Claypool, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. kliq

    kliq Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks, I try to show everyone respect even if I disagree with them.

    I will agree with this for the most part. Had we accepted a re-build earlier, we would be in a better place now. I do think the decline was inevitable though.
     
  2. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    10,381
    Likes Received:
    785
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Location:
    Sweden
    Only disappointment is if we drop 3 spots. That would suck. Anything else is awesome.
     
  3. kliq

    kliq Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    So if we finished 5 worst, is 8th the worst we can pick?
     
  4. newfy

    newfy Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,729
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    94
    I would say I'm very middle ground on for/against Holland but reading some of these posts makes me wanna bang my head against the wall. Who the hell has ever said any of those guys are irreplaceable? Its made up crap like that thats making this board harder and harder to come read. Yes Nyquist was a good example of overripening a player for too long. But did anyone actually want Nyquist up and playing in the role that Tootoo had? The wings were a lot better back then, they operated differently then they do now so why do these points keep getting beaten on like a dead horse. Holland is on record talking about how they want Rasmussen on the team next year when hes still junior eligible, Larkin came up early, theres talk about Cholowski making the team. Get over what happened 5 years ago when the wings were still contenders and quit beating the dead horse already

    The wings are loyal to a fault sure, but Cleary was a key player in a stanley cup win. Essential, no but a key top 6 physical player that year. Players get paid when they win cups, thats why for every person that chirps Chicago for having Toews contract I laugh at. They got 3 cups outta him at a bargain thats how the NHL works. Did Holland give out way too many bad contracts, definitely. But you dont need to lie about what people are saying and calling guys like Tootoo essential, you sound ridiculous trying to make a point like that
     
  5. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    10,381
    Likes Received:
    785
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yep!
     
    kliq likes this.
  6. kliq

    kliq Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    100% agree with the bold. What's happening is a person is taking an opposing argument, taking it to an extreme using hyperbole in order to make their argument sound better.
     
  7. newfy

    newfy Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,729
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Yep! and theres a lot of people that cant separate the fact that while Mike Illitch and the streak were alive there was a clear difference in managements approach compared to now. It might not be perfect like I said, but its clearly different and people want to bring **** up from like 7 years ago to make their points or then exaggerate and act like people called Tootoo or Samuelsson essential players to make a point that some people are pro holland, when thats clearly never happened. Its just getting old quick, I might not be around here much longer if it keeps up
     
  8. Zetterberg4Captain

    Zetterberg4Captain Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    11,107
    Likes Received:
    162
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Occupation:
    Fireman/Marine
    Location:
    Detroit
    I agree

    we should not bring up things that happened five or more years ago, good or bad equally.
     
  9. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Virologist/Immunologist
    Location:
    Desert USA
    Some things:

    1. Cleary wasn't the reason why Hossa couldn't come back. Holland took a gamble on a guy that looked to be as good as Hossa. Hindsight is 20/20 on that one, but at the time very few people faulted him.

    2. Holland bringing Sammy, Bert, Tootoo, Weiss, etc. over playing young players was a mistake, but it wasn't one that didn't have logic behind it. Going with known entities when your goal is making the playoffs is going to increase your odds of achieving said goal. I think it was a poor idea, but it wasn't illogical. Same with the trades to keep the team in contention.

    3. I am going into the next 2 years as an agnostic. He needs to shed some of his worst tendencies (keeping knowns, instead of making trades/letting players walk, etc), but he has shown that he at least can see the team is no where near a playoff team.

    4. The Sheahan stuff is pretty off the wall. I don't think it was all in his head like some have suggested, but he also clearly needed a change of scenery. Anyone thinking he'd score 30+ points on the Wings without playing with Larkin and Z is crazy. Everyone would hate him and would ***** about him not being traded. It wasn't the best trade, but whatever, its done.
     
    Red Stanley likes this.
  10. Dotter

    Dotter 11cups25 #hockeytown

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,246
    Likes Received:
    223
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Home Page:
    What? He mortgaged the future? Lol. Is this post for real?
     
  11. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    What young players are we talking about here?
     
  12. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Virologist/Immunologist
    Location:
    Desert USA
    Around 11-12? Nyquist and Tatar shouldn't have played a combined 18 games to that point. Same with 12-13 where they both only were on the team half the season.
     
  13. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    in 2011-12 the Red Wings finished with 102 points and were Top 10 in scoring and goals against. Who cares about Nyquist or Tatar at this point? No way Babcock is playing 20 year old rookies with significant top 6 minutes.
     
  14. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Virologist/Immunologist
    Location:
    Desert USA
    If you can't see Kenny definitely made short sighted moves to keep the streak alive than it'll be hard to continue this. And he definitely traded away prospects and picks for short term success. There is a logic behind it, no one should think he's a bumbling fool, but that type of strategy does come with downsides. The biggest one is that the farm system went to hell and Detroit was no longer able to replace the talent they lost with equal talent from drafting or trades.
     
  15. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Virologist/Immunologist
    Location:
    Desert USA
    The point is that without knowing what they had, and without being willing to take risks, its easy to set yourself up with the 'bird in the hand' mentality. Part of the reason why Detroit got as bad as it has is because it counted on players routinely surpassing their draft positions. Without accessing that in the NHL, many players were left in the AHL, where they dominated for years on end, only to come to the NHL and not make any impact. The reason why we should care is that a lot of decisions about the organization and it's future based on very incomplete information. This includes trading away center depth in the minors, not more aggressively developing defensemen and so on. Also 102 points was good for 7th best in the NHL. And part of a clear downward trend. But I bet that doesn't get addressed by you, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    Edit: Grammar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  16. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,249
    Likes Received:
    386
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Home Page:
    Agree about going into 11/12, but 11/12 was also the last year for Lids and Homer, and Hudler walked in the off-season. Going into a summer where another lockout was expected (and happened), it was a good time to do a bit of a re-set, leave some spots open, and just use some kids for a short season.
     
  17. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    Nyquist and Tatar weren't high first round picks. Both players were a long shot to even make the NHL. They needed extended time in the minors. In 2012-13 they won the Calder Cup, a first for the organization. Their development time in Grand Rapids had zero long-term effect on their NHL potential. They developed into exactly what they were supposed to.

    What players are you talking about? Give specifics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    Pavels Dog likes this.
  18. HockeyinHD

    HockeyinHD Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Messages:
    11,953
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    126
    As time goes along, it certainly seems like the incredibly capitalistic approach the Wings took to delaying their rebuild becomes more and more evident. They patched it together to max their profits in a bad building with a bad lease until they got a new barn, then lit the team on fire. Now they're making around as much money sucking as they made when they were great (not on the hockey side, but in total building ops profits), and it would not surprise me in the least to see them making a bunch more.

    Now they can be leisurely about their approach to a rebuild because there aren't any financial pressures on them anymore. I don't think that means they'll be good at it, given 70+% of teams fail at least once or twice when they try to rebuild (especially if you think a rebuild includes ending up going two-ish rounds deep), but they are certainly going to do it.

    Heck, in a couple years they might be scraping the salary floor. Not next year because the timing of the Larkin and Mantha deals are bad, but in 2019-20 Kronwall, Z, Nyquist and Howard are all likely to be gone. 18 mil off the cap (less recapture on Z, anyway).
     
  19. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Virologist/Immunologist
    Location:
    Desert USA
    Jurco, XO, Sproul, Pulkks, Sheahan, Emmerton, Mursak, Smith, Smith, Pottelberghe, Pearson, Marsh, Axelsson, Alqvist, and I can literally go on all night on players Detroit media, including media paid by the org, have hyped as the next big thing and weren't nearly as good. Detroit counted on draft pick performing above their draft position and did a poor job of evaluating them because of the 'overripe' mentality. And how many of these severely hyped players made much, if any real impact for Detroit.
     
  20. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,475
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Gender:
    Male
    I assure you no one in the media was hyping up Adam Marsh. You're literally complaining about a 7th round draft pick not making it. This organization isn't being held back because they could't find room for Jan Mursak.

    This might be the dumbest post I've read on here in awhile.
     
    newfy likes this.
  21. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    4,746
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Occupation:
    Virologist/Immunologist
    Location:
    Desert USA
    You should re-read some of yours then, because you have me beat by a country mile. But not withstanding, you got nothing, you can pick one name you dislike, but yet can't address the broader points. And worst of all is you're picking on something literally most people at this point agree on. Even Holland has said that the drafting recently hasn't been nearly as good as it has in the past. And the point you refuse to address, and keep trying to avoid is that the modality that Detroit had going into the last year was that they could find players that over perform their draft position, and yet haven't given a majority of them good looks in the NHL until literally the last possible moment. Then they give up on most of them before they get a fair chance. This has lead Detroit to count on a contradictory position of not wanting to play prospects because they don't know how they will perform, but won't trade them for pieces they need to compete long term because they aren't sure that it won't come back to haunt them.

    And, most teams don't write puff pieces about 7th rounders; Forward Adam Marsh capitalizes on second chance to salvage career, become Red Wings prospect

    But its funny that you get so bent out of shape about a post that mostly defends Holland.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  22. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,249
    Likes Received:
    386
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Home Page:
    If it had zero long term effect on their potential, they should have been up earlier. Their being up also means we likely don't sign Sammy/Tootoo/Bert, which would have been a big positive for this club in those few years.
     
  23. Dotter

    Dotter 11cups25 #hockeytown

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,246
    Likes Received:
    223
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Home Page:
    The NHL is a cap world and people blaming Ken Holland for not sucking sooner? In 2014/15 Wings were a 100 point team. Not often (nearly ever in the history of NHL) GMs blow up their 100 point team to go "all-in" for a tank. That's absurd.

    Under the circumstances, real life circumstances, KH did exactly what he should have done. He did not mortgage the future for a small chance to win. He traded prospect [hockey] players that had no future on the team what-so-ever. Big deal! Ken Holland had aquired more free draft picks than the middling bottom 6 players he traded (Janmark/Jarnkrok).

    Not having a competative team in the regular season and playoffs sucks, but it's nature of the beast thanks to your boy, Gary Bettman. It's what he and the NHL think-tanks wanted. And they got it! Now we have to pay our dues so other teams that can't even have natural ice skating ponds outside in the winter time get their shot.
     
  24. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    10,381
    Likes Received:
    785
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Location:
    Sweden
    Teams have people watching prospects every step of the way, including practice and off-ice. Guys that aren't given a "good look" in the NHL most likely don't deserve it. Guys that are given up on are most likely worth giving up on (as can be seen by the vast majority of prospects we've given up amounting to exactly nothing.
    Who fits this criteria? Nyquist and Pulkkinen who got about 2 seasons in GR, with 30+ games in the NHL where they had the chance to lock up a job? Tatar maybe, but he wasn't quite dominating imo.
     
  25. kliq

    kliq Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    183
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    Not sure if this fits here, but I was reading the Leafs boards and its really no different then here. So many fans saying that Lou and Babs need to be fired, Lou is an idiot for not trading away JVR/Bozak at the TDL etc. etc. I think it just goes to show you that it doesn't matter what you do as a GM or where your team is, you are never going to please your entire fan-base, its literally impossible. I can't believe people think that Lou is an idiot for not trading away his leading goal scorer when the Leafs were a lock to make the playoffs (we're not talking Blues/Stasny here).

    I can see why GM's ignore the fans, you're always going to have people acting irrationally.

    Before someone says it, this is not to imply Holland doesn't make mistakes or that some of the criticism isn't justified. Its just making the point that fans sometimes have unrealistic expectations.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"