Keep Calm and Cleary On... I can't believe this thread is still needed.

[detredWINgs]

Hoping the conservative cap will keep any Cleary deal from getting done...

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

Oh yes for sure, Don't get me wrong he pisses me off sometimes but who out there has his track record? Who could do it better? I can't and don't really have anyone but Scotty in mind I would trust really.

Precisely. The guy isn't perfect, far from it, but there is no such thing as a perfect GM. I'm certainly more willing to deal with an overly conservative, occasionally boring and/or predictable GM over a guy like Holmgren who swings at everything and rarely if ever hits a deal out of the park. The most relevant questions that those who want Holland fired have to ask themselves are these. Are there any GMs out there with an unblemished track record of success? Failing that (because there are none) is there a GM with a better track record than Holland, and more importantly, who is also available? Yzerman sure isn't (and would he even want to come here with the outright lunacy some of the Wings' fanbase has exhibited recently.) Scotty Bowman isn't available and the jury is still out on whether he'd even be a decent GM. Look at his tenure in Buffalo, and one of his first decisions here was to get rid of "The Captain". Ray Shero? Yeah he's available, but he took a team that was expected to be a perennial contender, left them with questionable defense and goaltending as well as absolutely no forward depth to speak of beyond the top 2 lines and left them with a coach who clearly couldn't rectify the problem. Seems like a downgrade to me. So really, I'm left asking, who is this Holland replacement that is going to come in and magically solve the fact that we no longer have Lidstrom on the back end, or trade for every elite player out there and give up nothing in return, etc etc? Because I really can't think of one.

 

[Goalie guy]

Precisely. The guy isn't perfect, far from it, but there is no such thing as a perfect GM. I'm certainly more willing to deal with an overly conservative, occasionally boring and/or predictable GM over a guy like Holmgren who swings at everything and rarely if ever hits a deal out of the park. The most relevant questions that those who want Holland fired have to ask themselves are these. Are there any GMs out there with an unblemished track record of success? Failing that (because there are none) is there a GM with a better track record than Holland, and more importantly, who is also available? Yzerman sure isn't (and would he even want to come here with the outright lunacy some of the Wings' fanbase has exhibited recently.) Scotty Bowman isn't available and the jury is still out on whether he'd even be a decent GM. Look at his tenure in Buffalo, and one of his first decisions here was to get rid of "The Captain". Ray Shero? Yeah he's available, but he took a team that was expected to be a perennial contender, left them with questionable defense and goaltending as well as absolutely no forward depth to speak of beyond the top 2 lines and left them with a coach who clearly couldn't rectify the problem. Seems like a downgrade to me. So really, I'm left asking, who is this Holland replacement that is going to come in and magically solve the fact that we no longer have Lidstrom on the back end, or trade for every elite player out there and give up nothing in return, etc etc? Because I really can't think of one.

Well said sir well said!

 

[Coffee Time]

Precisely. The guy isn't perfect, far from it, but there is no such thing as a perfect GM. I'm certainly more willing to deal with an overly conservative, occasionally boring and/or predictable GM over a guy like Holmgren who swings at everything and rarely if ever hits a deal out of the park. The most relevant questions that those who want Holland fired have to ask themselves are these. Are there any GMs out there with an unblemished track record of success? Failing that (because there are none) is there a GM with a better track record than Holland, and more importantly, who is also available? Yzerman sure isn't (and would he even want to come here with the outright lunacy some of the Wings' fanbase has exhibited recently.) Scotty Bowman isn't available and the jury is still out on whether he'd even be a decent GM. Look at his tenure in Buffalo, and one of his first decisions here was to get rid of "The Captain". Ray Shero? Yeah he's available, but he took a team that was expected to be a perennial contender, left them with questionable defense and goaltending as well as absolutely no forward depth to speak of beyond the top 2 lines and left them with a coach who clearly couldn't rectify the problem. Seems like a downgrade to me. So really, I'm left asking, who is this Holland replacement that is going to come in and magically solve the fact that we no longer have Lidstrom on the back end, or trade for every elite player out there and give up nothing in return, etc etc? Because I really can't think of one.

1. the track record of Holland needs to stop being used as a defense. It's not relevant to the cap era. I always use the Lapointe for 5 million deal when this comes up. This was one of KH last non-cap signings and it really shows how he loved to make it rain if he wanted to strong arm weaker teams away from players he wanted.

 

[bababooeyII]

Precisely. The guy isn't perfect, far from it, but there is no such thing as a perfect GM. I'm certainly more willing to deal with an overly conservative, occasionally boring and/or predictable GM over a guy like Holmgren who swings at everything and rarely if ever hits a deal out of the park. The most relevant questions that those who want Holland fired have to ask themselves are these. Are there any GMs out there with an unblemished track record of success? Failing that (because there are none) is there a GM with a better track record than Holland, and more importantly, who is also available? Yzerman sure isn't (and would he even want to come here with the outright lunacy some of the Wings' fanbase has exhibited recently.) Scotty Bowman isn't available and the jury is still out on whether he'd even be a decent GM. Look at his tenure in Buffalo, and one of his first decisions here was to get rid of "The Captain". Ray Shero? Yeah he's available, but he took a team that was expected to be a perennial contender, left them with questionable defense and goaltending as well as absolutely no forward depth to speak of beyond the top 2 lines and left them with a coach who clearly couldn't rectify the problem. Seems like a downgrade to me. So really, I'm left asking, who is this Holland replacement that is going to come in and magically solve the fact that we no longer have Lidstrom on the back end, or trade for every elite player out there and give up nothing in return, etc etc? Because I really can't think of one.

I don't care who replaces him, probably someone in the organization. The point I make is that Holland is too tied to the past and cannot objectively make a decision to better the roster. At the very least someone else could come in and objectively say "Dan Cleary is done, we're going in another direction". I get loyalty, I get being good to the players who got you there etc. but Holland's loyalty to the old guard is actually hurting the team. If he doesn't have the balls to cut ties with the past and is too tied to his vets he needs to be replaced. He also has not shown that with parity in the league, he can manage a roster and assets successfully. When was the last move Holland made to acquire extra picks, or move out dead weight before he had to lose them for nothing via waivers. What was the last successful trade or ufa signing that Ken Holland has done on his own since 2009? Dekeyser was a no brainer and Alfie's agent called up Holland. If he can't make deals and can't be objective in how he looks at his roster he needs to go. When Ken Holland makes a trade now it's from a position of weakness and he gets fleeced (see the last few years of deadline trades).

 

[Run the Jewels]

I don't care who replaces him, probably someone in the organization. The point I make is that Holland is too tied to the past and cannot objectively make a decision to better the roster. At the very least someone else could come in and objectively say "Dan Cleary is done, we're going in another direction". I get loyalty, I get being good to the players who got you there etc. but Holland's loyalty to the old guard is actually hurting the team. If he doesn't have the balls to cut ties with the past and is too tied to his vets he needs to be replaced. He also has not shown that with parity in the league, he can manage a roster and assets successfully. When was the last move Holland made to acquire extra picks, or move out dead weight before he had to lose them for nothing via waivers. What was the last successful trade or ufa signing that Ken Holland has done on his own since 2009? Dekeyser was a no brainer and Alfie's agent called up Holland. If he can't make deals and can't be objective in how he looks at his roster he needs to go. When Ken Holland makes a trade now it's from a position of weakness and he gets fleeced (see the last few years of deadline trades).

My hope is he learned from last year when essentially 7 forwards were waived and our top two goal scorers last season were either in the pressbox or in Grand Rapids to start the season.

Depth really doesn't help and in fact hurts when you have 7 forwards no longer capable of playing hockey blocking NHL players from playing for your team and making your team better.

 

[SoupNazi]

My hope is he learned from last year when essentially 7 forwards were waived and our top two goal scorers last season were either in the pressbox or in Grand Rapids to start the season.

Depth really doesn't help and in fact hurts when you have 7 forwards no longer capable of playing hockey blocking NHL players from playing for your team and making your team better.

We waived seven forwards last year?

 

[Kyleftlx]

We waived seven forwards last year?

Tootoo, Eaves, Sammy, Emmerton, uhhh..

 

[Goalie guy]

We waived seven forwards last year?

Right! Who are said waived forwards??

 

[bababooeyII]

My hope is he learned from last year when essentially 7 forwards were waived and our top two goal scorers last season were either in the pressbox or in Grand Rapids to start the season.

Depth really doesn't help and in fact hurts when you have 7 forwards no longer capable of playing hockey blocking NHL players from playing for your team and making your team better.

And that's another thing as well. As the Blackhawks have shown, you have a core of players you build around and everyone else is just stop gaps and fillers. The Wings do the opposite, they load their roster with stop gaps and veteran fillers and have no room for the prospects to grow. Case in point, Drew Miller, Dan Cleary etc..etc. WE can't cut ties with Dan frickin' Cleary and other teams are talking about trading away roster players, teams like Chicago, Boston etc. are all talking about moving players who are not rally core players but nice complimentary pieces to get more flexible under the cap and keep their rosters fresh. If Brandan Saad was drafted b the Wings he'd be in Grand Rapids and we'd be wondering how we can make room for him with guys like Andersson and Glendening ahead of him. Pathetic

 

[Kyleftlx]

I just hope he's not counting any of the guys like Hoggan who would be waiver eligible but would never see NHL action in Detroit.

 

[Coffee Time]

And that's another thing as well. As the Blackhawks have shown, you have a core of players you build around and everyone else is just stop gaps and fillers. The Wings do the opposite, they load their roster with stop gaps and veteran fillers and have no room for the prospects to grow. Case in point, Drew Miller, Dan Cleary etc..etc. WE can't cut ties with Dan frickin' Cleary and other teams are talking about trading away roster players, teams like Chicago, Boston etc. are all talking about moving players who are not rally core players but nice complimentary pieces to get more flexible under the cap and keep their rosters fresh. If Brandan Saad was drafted b the Wings he'd be in Grand Rapids and we'd be wondering how we can make room for him with guys like Andersson and Glendening ahead of him. Pathetic

I think sheahan is comparable to Saad. and Sheahan is here to stay. Holland did one thing right already this off-season and that's not bring back Legwand. Sheahan is going to develop here instead of GR like he should.

 

[Crymson]

I think sheahan is comparable to Saad. and Sheahan is here to stay. Holland did one thing right already this off-season and that's not bring back Legwand. Sheahan is going to develop here instead of GR like he should.

Sheahan is no longer waiver-exempt, so I don't see your point. He'd be in the NHL anyway.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

1. the track record of Holland needs to stop being used as a defense. It's not relevant to the cap era. I always use the Lapointe for 5 million deal when this comes up. This was one of KH last non-cap signings and it really shows how he loved to make it rain if he wanted to strong arm weaker teams away from players he wanted.

I'm not using his track record to defend him. In fact my post specifically says his track record isn't perfect. Where I do think it becomes a factor though is if we're going to start comparing Ken Holland to others. Then we have to start looking at what Ken Holland has done compared to them. If you want to constrain that to the cap-era, so be it, but you also have to give him credit for getting one of the most indulgent teams in the league under the cap in the first place (ironically with some astute signings such as Dan Cleary and Mikael Samuelsson.) My point was there is nobody out there that we can bring in who has done more good and less bad than Ken Holland. And if that's the case, wouldn't anyone we bring in by definition, be a downgrade?

I don't care who replaces him, probably someone in the organization. The point I make is that Holland is too tied to the past and cannot objectively make a decision to better the roster. At the very least someone else could come in and objectively say "Dan Cleary is done, we're going in another direction". I get loyalty, I get being good to the players who got you there etc. but Holland's loyalty to the old guard is actually hurting the team. If he doesn't have the balls to cut ties with the past and is too tied to his vets he needs to be replaced. He also has not shown that with parity in the league, he can manage a roster and assets successfully. When was the last move Holland made to acquire extra picks, or move out dead weight before he had to lose them for nothing via waivers. What was the last successful trade or ufa signing that Ken Holland has done on his own since 2009? Dekeyser was a no brainer and Alfie's agent called up Holland. If he can't make deals and can't be objective in how he looks at his roster he needs to go. When Ken Holland makes a trade now it's from a position of weakness and he gets fleeced (see the last few years of deadline trades).

The Dan Cleary signing may have been about loyalty, sure, but I highly doubt that's all it was about. More likely it was the team wanting to keep a guy who poured his heart and soul into every game and they wanted to keep that quality on the team in the hopes that some of it may rub off on the massive influx of incoming kids. Is that the right call? Probably not, in fact that's not even the route I'd take if I were him, but I can understand it. The amount of time Cleary got, including PP time was not Holland's decision, it was Babcock's. Holland's biggest mistake in that deal wasn't signing Cleary, it was assuming he could clear roster space via waivers.

As for the rest of your post, it assumes a lot. Dead weight is dead weight for a reason. If we start assuming we can move out trash to every idiot in the league and get any sort of return we want, well than of course KH is going to look inept. The truth is every GM in the league knows when we're up against it. Do you think they're going to willingly take Tootoo off our hands if they know it will lead to calling up Nyquist. Andersson, Kindl we are assuming they have any value whatsoever. Also we fail to acknowledge when he does something good. Let's not forget he got a pick for Brad Stuart from San Jose even though Stewie was destined to go there anyway. Or what about the conditional pick for Kent Huskins. Or any return whatsoever on the polished turd known as Ville Leino. As for trades, when was the last time we had any expendable trade assets that were worth anything. I honestly can't think of a single time since the beginning of the cap that we've had a single significant trade chip that was not considered part of the team's core. Now, we have a ton of young kids and we're starting to hear a lot more trade chatter. I don't think that's a coincidence. Then there's the FA signings or lack thereof. An argument that has been going around this board is that you don't build through free agency. Ignoring that argument, we have to start looking at all the free agents that have been available. How many of them are not either A) overpaid and/or have too much term and B) wanted to come here more than any other place. That list is probably very small and it certainly doesn't include Suter.

The truth is, the guy doesn't deserve the hate he gets on this board. However, I acknowledge that I can defend the guy til I'm blue in the face and I won't get anywhere. So I guess I'll end this rant, which is basically an exercise in futility, by just saying let's agree to disagree.

 

[Henkka]

Also we fail to acknowledge when he does something good. Let's not forget he got a pick for Brad Stuart from San Jose even though Stewie was destined to go there anyway. Or what about the conditional pick for Kent Huskins. Or any return whatsoever on the polished turd known as Ville Leino.

This pick we got for Stuart turned to be Kadeykin and Leino-trade pick has been Bäckman.

This board looks to be pretty high on both of these draftees.

 

[Realgud]

<<<<<<<<

Thread is relevant again!!!!

 

[ShanahanMan]

<<<<<<<<

Thread is relevant again!!!!

Seriously? One isn't enough?

 

[Realgud]

Seriously? One isn't enough?

Hey hey, we did signed a top-6 player. The thread deserved to be bumped.