Keep Calm and Cleary On... I can't believe this thread is still needed.

[WingedWheel1987]

You aren't being logical if you think Dan Cleary playing in the AHL can't hurt the Wings. This organization is treating him like he was more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener in his prime. He will get called up. He will look like a dumpster fire with skates.

If Cleary is given a two way contract, it will end up being a huge failure on Holland's part and destroy any belief that Ken Holland is still a good GM.

He can go mentor another AHL team that isn't affiliated with the Wings

The guy can no longer help you win games. Give him a 40 dollar watch from Sears and move on.

You throw trash away. You don't being it back for another year, with the hope that it will magically turn into what it used to be.

Let me put it this way. Would any other team offer him a contract? Ignoring Helene St. James offer for Cleary to be her pool boy.

 

[SoupNazi]

If Cleary is given a two way contract, it will end up being a huge failure on Holland's part and destroy any belief that Ken Holland is still a good GM.

How many people around here still believe that?

 

[ashenhigh]

You aren't being logical if you think Dan Cleary playing in the AHL can't hurt the Wings. This organization is treating him like he was more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener in his prime. He will get called up. He will look like a dumpster fire with skates.

If Cleary is given a two way contract, it will end up being a huge failure on Holland's part and destroy any belief that Ken Holland is still a good GM.

He can go mentor another AHL team that isn't affiliated with the Wings

The guy can no longer help you win games. Give him a 40 dollar watch from Sears and move on.

You throw trash away. You don't being it back for another year, with the hope that it will magically turn into what it used to be.

Let me put it this way. Would any other team offer him a contract? Ignoring Helene St. James offer for Cleary to be her pool boy.

I agree, Holland is turning into a Veteran-hoarder.

 

[Crymson]

How many people around here still believe that?

He's good at drafting and development. He is very average, at best, at actually managing rosters and addressing team needs through trades or free agency. The Legwand trade was the single instance of the past four seasons in which he made a trade to address a major need, and that was a move born of desperation. He has utterly failed over the past five offseasons to provide this team with the roster it needs to contend, and has in that time ineffectively filled the gaps with washed-out veterans (Alfredsson excepted) and other players that likewise do not fit the team's needs.

So yes, right now he doesn't deserve to be called a good GM. The Cleary debacle is just the proverbial icing on the cake. It is an absolutely absurd situation.

That said, I'll reserve judgment on the matter until something actually happens. Given Holland's history, I'm not optimistic, but ultimately we're not privy to what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[Vladdy84]

How many people around here still believe that?

He's much better than Mayhew.

 

[Roy S]

Holland is definitely still a good GM. Making the playoffs every year the last 5 years despite losing a couple all-world puck moving defenseman and the general aging or departure of your SC winning forward core and that being the low point of your tenure is an underrated feat. The Calgary Flames doomsday scenarios have never even come close to happening.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Holland is definitely still a good GM. Making the playoffs every year the last 5 years despite losing a couple all-world puck moving defenseman and the general aging or departure of your SC winning forward core and that being the low point of your tenure is an underrated feat. The Calgary Flames doomsday scenarios have never even come close to happening.

Right...because being the 8th seed and getting slaughtered in five games is not even remotely comparable to being a 9th seed.

The Wings and Flames are just worlds apart.

This team is still the Datsyuk and Zetterberg show. As of right now, there are no prospects that come close to their talent level. If that doesn't change, we will end up looking back and calling these past five years, "The good years."

 

[Roy S]

Right...because being the 8th seed and getting slaughtered in five games is not even remotely comparable to being a 9th seed.

The Wings and Flames are just worlds apart.

This team is still the Datsyuk and Zetterberg show. As of right now, there are no prospects that come close to their talent level. If that doesn't change, we will end up looking back and calling these past five years, "The good years."

The Flames haven't made it past the first round since 2004 and haven't made the playoffs each of the last 5 seasons. They are worlds apart unless the Wings are one of the worst organizations in the NHL the next 5 years. The Wings were still a top 10 team overall the last 5 years and the 3 best teams over that time frame (Boston, LA and Chicago) were all awful in the first couple years after the first lockout and then had an advantage going forward b/c they had built up their young core while the Wings were aging.

We'll see how the Wings 25 and under talent develops going forward and that will determine how the next five years go. I don't think they are doomed for failure just b/c they might not have two elite young players yet. A lot can change.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The Flames haven't made it past the first round since 2004 and haven't made the playoffs each of the last 5 seasons. They are worlds apart unless the Wings are one of the worst organizations in the NHL the next 5 years. The Wings were still a top 10 team overall the last 5 years and the 3 best teams over that time frame (Boston, LA and Chicago) were all awful in the first couple years after the first lockout and then had an advantage going forward b/c they had built up their young core while the Wings were aging.

We'll see how the Wings 25 and under talent develops going forward and that will determine how the next five years go. I don't think they are doomed for failure just b/c they might not have two elite young players yet. A lot can change.

Pretty big leap from not the super power top 5 contender for the last two years that they were the 20 years before that to consistently mediocre Calgary with one good run and then flat out terrible. I never understand this analogy when people try to bring it up.

 

[Crymson]

Holland is definitely still a good GM. Making the playoffs every year the last 5 years despite losing a couple all-world puck moving defenseman and the general aging or departure of your SC winning forward core and that being the low point of your tenure is an underrated feat. The Calgary Flames doomsday scenarios have never even come close to happening.

Holland has managed to keep the team competitive, but has unequivocally failed to keep it a contender. And if this team had an average coach rather than one of the best in the world, it would almost certainly have missed the playoffs the past three seasons.

I don't agree with the people here who say that this makes him an atrocious GM---so many years of success have convinced some Red Wings fans that imperfection means incompetence---as there are numerous general managers in this league who are worse and not many who are better. However, I believe that he has consistently dropped the ball over the past five seasons.

 

[Vladdy84]

If Clears signs and plays. I'll volunteer to get a big Cleary tat on my back akin to steve-0 in jackass. Donations will be needed though.

 

[Henkka]

Holland has managed to keep the team competitive, but has unequivocally failed to keep it a contender. And if this team had an average coach rather than one of the best in the world, it would almost certainly have missed the playoffs the past three seasons.

You know what... If you want to give the credit to the coach, when GM is failing, I have to ask, who is the man responsible signing that coach in our team..?

 

[YostisHome]

If there's nothing wrong in Jeff Hoggan mentoring our kids, why would Cleary be a problem?

Don't you think its a bit naive to think that's all this will be? How long did it take for dumb and dumber to realize what a liability this clown was this year. If he gets any type of contract here we will see him in a Wings jersey again.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

I don't agree with the people here who say that this makes him an atrocious GM---so many years of success have convinced some Red Wings fans that imperfection means incompetence---as there are numerous general managers in this league who are worse and not many who are better. However, I believe that he has consistently dropped the ball over the past five seasons.

That's a fair opinion Crymson, and I can respect that. What I can't understand is the people that rail against Holland yet fail to acknowledge that there are 20+ other GMs/managerial staffs in this league that don't hold a candle to Holland and Co. Fans of those teams aren't worried about their GM being too conservative, they're worried about what he'll do next to screw up their team. We can all name boneheaded moves that Holland has made, but has he ever made a move that has unequivocally made our team worse?

 

[YostisHome]

has he ever made a move that has unequivocally made our team worse?

Yes.

 

[Crymson]

We can all name boneheaded moves that Holland has made, but has he ever made a move that has unequivocally made our team worse?

Absolutely, and you need look back not far at all to find an example: when he re-signed Dan Cleary and dumped Nyquist in the AHL. Cleary went on to be the team's worst player that season, and Nyquist its best.

There you go.

 

[Goalie guy]

That's a fair opinion Crymson, and I can respect that. What I can't understand is the people that rail against Holland yet fail to acknowledge that there are 20+ other GMs/managerial staffs in this league that don't hold a candle to Holland and Co. Fans of those teams aren't worried about their GM being too conservative, they're worried about what he'll do next to screw up their team. We can all name boneheaded moves that Holland has made, but has he ever made a move that has unequivocally made our team worse?

You said it right here in your post " Holland and co". The and co has been slowly moving out. And this I fear may be the biggest factor for the bad last couple of years! And what really concerns me going forward.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

Yes.

Such as? I think the closest would be the Jarnkrok trade as it did put a dent in our center prospect depth, but even that move can be rationalized. They gave up a kid that, for better or worse, did not buy into their system, was threatening to go home, and did not look like the prospect he once was touted as (mostly because of his lack of commitment to offseason training, which again, goes back to the not buying into their system thing.) They gave him up for a center (inherently more valuable than wingers and few were available so the Vanek trade is not a good comparable) who they seemed to have interest in retaining and would solve the whole who plays at 2C dilemma. Who knows why they soured on Legwand, but people have made way too big a deal out of that trade. Bad trade? Sure. Does it significantly hurt the team? Doubtful.

After that we have the Quincey trade. Yeah it was stupid giving up a first for him. As I said earlier Holland went hard after a guy that was familiar with the system and had shown nothing but improvement since his departure. Did he give up a bit too much? Sure. Did it hurt the team? Not really.

Then what? Keeping Hossa over Franzen? In hindsight, yeah it was kinda stupid, but I don't think anyone could have predicted Franzen regressing so much, and people have a tendency of making Franzen's contract look worse than it actually is. When Holland actually made the decision though he was choosing to keep a guy who had been a playoff monster for him, who was younger and less expensive and would therefore be less restrictive to their rapidly dwindling cap space. He kept Franzen over a guy who was brought in and expected to perform with the twins, but looked largely underwhelming with either of them. Also, it wasn't a given that Hossa even wanted to come back, something that's often ignored during that conversation.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Such as? I think the closest would be the Jarnkrok trade as it did put a dent in our center prospect depth, but even that move can be rationalized. They gave up a kid that, for better or worse, did not buy into their system, was threatening to go home, and did not look like the prospect he once was touted as (mostly because of his lack of commitment to offseason training, which again, goes back to the not buying into their system thing.) They gave him up for a center (inherently more valuable than wingers and few were available so the Vanek trade is not a good comparable) who they seemed to have interest in retaining and would solve the whole who plays at 2C dilemma. Who knows why they soured on Legwand, but people have made way too big a deal out of that trade. Bad trade? Sure. Does it significantly hurt the team? Doubtful.

After that we have the Quincey trade. Yeah it was stupid giving up a first for him. As I said earlier Holland went hard after a guy that was familiar with the system and had shown nothing but improvement since his departure. Did he give up a bit too much? Sure. Did it hurt the team? Not really.

Then what? Keeping Hossa over Franzen? In hindsight, yeah it was kinda stupid, but I don't think anyone could have predicted Franzen regressing so much, and people have a tendency of making Franzen's contract look worse than it actually is. When Holland actually made the decision though he was choosing to keep a guy who had been a playoff monster for him, who was younger and less expensive and would therefore be less restrictive to their rapidly dwindling cap space. He kept Franzen over a guy who was brought in and expected to perform with the twins, but looked largely underwhelming with either of them. Also, it wasn't a given that Hossa even wanted to come back, something that's often ignored during that conversation.

Hi I'm Daniel Cleary. You might remember me from such films as, "Pylons and other things you see on the freeway", and "Stand By Me", as the dead body the children discover.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

Absolutely, and you need look back not far at all to find an example: when he re-signed Dan Cleary and dumped Nyquist in the AHL. Cleary went on to be the team's worst player that season, and Nyquist its best.

There you go.

Ok, fair enough Crymson. You probably pinpointed the worst decision Holland has made in a while. We also have no idea how much of a factor Babcock (as well as Z, Kronner, etc) played in retaining Cleary. Ignoring that though, the premise that this team is by and large trying to A) put a competitive team on the ice and B) trying to bring up a new core of youngsters means that this team will always put a premium on vets over prospects. Nobody could have predicted Nyquist would have had the season he had and the Wings value (perhaps overvalue) the heart and soul that Cleary has always played with, in the hopes that maybe it will rub off on some of the young ones. If Cleary had played on the fourth line where he belonged and been taken off the PP, I doubt anyone would have cared as much. Those decisions are all on Babcock.

Look, my point is, Holland has made some stupid decisions sure, but he doesn't deserve the hate he gets on this board.

 

[Chex LeMeneux]

You said it right here in your post " Holland and co". The and co has been slowly moving out. And this I fear may be the biggest factor for the bad last couple of years! And what really concerns me going forward.

You raise an excellent point there Goalie Guy. That is a concern for me going forward as well. Maybe Holland is one of those guys that has always surrounded himself with much more competent people to make himself look good. That's also overlooking the fact that he put those people in those positions in the first place. If Holland's greatest talent is finding people who are excellent at drafting and developing than so be it, but that's all still part of GMing and something he gets absolutely no credit for.

 

[Goalie guy]

You raise an excellent point there Goalie Guy. That is a concern for me going forward as well. Maybe Holland is one of those guys that has always surrounded himself with much more competent people to make himself look good. That's also overlooking the fact that he put those people in those positions in the first place. If Holland's greatest talent is finding people who are excellent at drafting and developing than so be it, but that's all still part of GMing and something he gets absolutely no credit for.

Oh yes for sure, Don't get me wrong he pisses me off sometimes but who out there has his track record? Who could do it better? I can't and don't really have anyone but Scotty in mind I would trust really.

 

[ScottyBowman]

Holland is prepping our team to be another 8th seed and make it in the playoffs in the last week only to be tossed around like rag dolls by the likes of ANY team out there.

He will say that with Weiss coming back, we are adding a top forward. He will try to say that all of the young kids will be better and then will claim Datysuk and Zetterberg will propel the team. The fact is some of the young players will hit a sophomore wall. Datsyuk has a bad knee and Zetterberg has a bad back and they are starting to get old, and Weiss is a huge question mark. Welcome back to the team that never changes. Same players every year. The Bruins will laugh at us again HA HA HA.

 

[rx7dryver]

I'm surprised that it hasn't been made official yet.

 

[Coffee Time]

Hi I'm Daniel Cleary. You might remember me from such films as, "Pylons and other things you see on the freeway", and "Stand By Me", as the dead body the children discover.

Hi, Im Sammy. Just making 3 mill. no big deal.