Kane legal drama in Buffalo III (no hearsay, verifiable sources only)

[ploppsdman]

The DA will use the grand jury to suit their needs... It's why the grand jury scheme is a secretive farce... It needs to go away in all the states.

 

[JustABlackhawksFan]

What I am wondering is... How has this information about what witnesses are being subpoenaed even come out at all, considering the grand jury is supposed to be such a secret process? Is somebody leaking info who is not supposed to leak this info?

 

[lallyvee]

Grand jury testimony is leaked constantly.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

What I am wondering is... How has this information about what witnesses are being subpoenaed even come out at all, considering the grand jury is supposed to be such a secret process? Is somebody leaking info who is not supposed to leak this info?

Some source is leaking stuff to this guy. I would guess it would be an attorney involved because this particular reporter has continually tweeted reports regarding the lack of settlement discussions in the case.

 

[BHFan]

If the grand jury is but a rubber stamp, then it rests with the prosecutor and whether he feels he has enough to convict, am I right? If he controls the grand jury proceedings, doesn't it follow that if he doesn't think he has enough to convict he will present his case as such to the grand jury???

I was wondering if the prosecutor thought he didn't have enough to bring the case to trial, whether he's sending it to the grand jury because he's getting pressure from the victim or her family. The D.A. is very political and if he thinks he can't make a case, and the grand jury says he does, then it takes the heat off of him if the case then falls to pieces when it goes to trial. He can say, I never wanted to prosecute but I followed the wishes of the grand jury. Does this make sense?

And, Jay, I'm enjoying the expertise that you've added to the discussion. Please continue.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I wanted to pop in and say something...

I spent a few minutes reading the threads on this topic, on this forum, just to get caught up. I was impressed with the level of discussion going on. Not only the detailed discussion of the finer legal points of the law, but the fact that people really appear to be looking at it fairly. I don't see a lot of "homerism" towards Patrick Kane; if anything some posters are zealously stamping out any traces of that.

The NHL has obviously had its controversies over the years, many as big as or bigger than this one...and you often don't see that level of maturity. Fans instantly rush to defend their player (if he is a superstar)...I can remember how die-hard Lakers fan reacted to Kobe....or how Kings fans are responding to Voynov.

I know it is Hfboards, which automatically raises the level of discussion a tad, but I wanted to say that my faith in humanity was ever-so-slightly increased after reading the threads.

 

[42]

The grand jury will be held on Sep 8th but it could take weeks or even months for a decision to be made. I wonder how the NHL/Hawks organization will proceed before a decision is made. They may make a decision based on how their legal advisers see the likelihood of Kane being charged.

 

[Kaners PPGs]

I wanted to pop in and say something...

I spent a few minutes reading the threads on this topic, on this forum, just to get caught up. I was impressed with the level of discussion going on. Not only the detailed discussion of the finer legal points of the law, but the fact that people really appear to be looking at it fairly. I don't see a lot of "homerism" towards Patrick Kane; if anything some posters are zealously stamping out any traces of that.


I know it is Hfboards, which automatically raises the level of discussion a tad, but I wanted to say that my faith in humanity was ever-so-slightly increased after reading the threads.

I understand what you are saying Orr based on this thread but this forum is a very small slice of the Hawk fandom. Overall, I have been disgusted by some of the stuff I have read on FB and Twitter. I have sometimes looked down on other fanbases for bad behavior (Boston, Vancouver, college football teams, ect) but the reality is that the Hawk fanbase is no different.

 

[TorMenT]

I understand what you are saying Orr based on this thread but this forum is a very small slice of the Hawk fandom. Overall, I have been disgusted by some of the stuff I have read on FB and Twitter. I have sometimes looked down on other fanbases for bad behavior (Boston, Vancouver, college football teams, ect) but the reality is that the Hawk fanbase is no different.

No fanbase is different. Humans are humans and most people like a team purely based on where they live, grew up, or their parents liked.

 

[ndgt10]

I don't see any way Kane is playng much less practicing with the team if he's waiting on a grand jury decision to be charged or not.

 

[chicagoskycam]

The grand jury will be held on Sep 8th but it could take weeks or even months for a decision to be made. I wonder how the NHL/Hawks organization will proceed before a decision is made. They may make a decision based on how their legal advisers see the likelihood of Kane being charged.

I sit him if I'm the Hawks but that's just me. Suspended with pay until this is resolved. Not sure if the Hawks are able to do that with the current CBA.

 

[G0AT]

I don't see any way Kane is playng much less practicing with the team if he's waiting on a grand jury decision to be charged or not.

Agreed. Unfortunately, this process looks like it will take weeks, if not months. Jay is definitely right though, the more subpoenas the better it is for Kane and the murkier it is for the girl. But, it will take longer if thats the case.

Also, thanks again Jay for all your wisdom. I've learned a lot from this thread in the past couple of weeks.

 

[Hawks818]

I have a hard time comprehending how in this country you'd be punished by your employer when you haven't even been arrested much less charged with a crime. Innocent until proven guilty. I'd imagine that Kane could file a grievance against the Hawks and the NHL if they tried to suspend him based on what's known now.

I am also delurking to say thanks to BroadwayJay for his insight in NY criminal procedure. Fascinating information.

 

[MR2010]

Hasn't precedent already been set by Doughty's case? He was allowed to play while under investigation. Voynov was suspended after his arrest. Kane hasn't even been charged, although now with the grand jury we know the incident under investigation is officially a felony.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I have a hard time comprehending how in this country you'd be punished by your employer when you haven't even been arrested much less charged with a crime. Innocent until proven guilty. I'd imagine that Kane could file a grievance against the Hawks and the NHL if they tried to suspend him based on what's known now.

I am also delurking to say thanks to BroadwayJay for his insight in NY criminal procedure. Fascinating information.

As long as he's being paid what's the issue. Kane might not want the distraction either.

 

[BHFan]

I may be mistaken, but I thought the Grand Jury makes a decision almost immediately. So on the 8th, if they decide on no indictment, wouldn't it make sense that the D.A. would close the investigation and not issue charges? I think if he really wanted to charge Kane and felt he had a solid chance to win, he would have done it on his own and not bothered with the grand jury.

If the Grand Jury does come back with an indictment, then it's going to be a long road ahead.

 

[42]

I have a hard time comprehending how in this country you'd be punished by your employer when you haven't even been arrested much less charged with a crime. Innocent until proven guilty. I'd imagine that Kane could file a grievance against the Hawks and the NHL if they tried to suspend him based on what's known now.

I am also delurking to say thanks to BroadwayJay for his insight in NY criminal procedure. Fascinating information.

That's my opinion as well. As long as there is no charge, there will be no suspension.

 

[vegarover]

Hasn't precedent already been set by Doughty's case? He was allowed to play while under investigation. Voynov was suspended after his arrest. Kane hasn't even been charged, although now with the grand jury we know the incident under investigation is officially a felony.

You're right. The difference was Voynov was charged with a crime, Doughty was not.

However, from what I understand, the investigation of Doughty wasn't even made public until AFTER the season was over. And on top of that it seemed like the alleged victim had a lot of holes in her story and lack of evidence from the get go.

In Kane's case, a grand jury hearing makes it more likely charges will be filed. I think the best bet what the Hawks will do is give him a leave of absence WITH pay until then. I think that would prevent any trouble from the NHLPA as well.

 

[Hawks818]

As long as he's being paid what's the issue. Kane might not want the distraction either.

If Kane just accepted a suspension he'd be fostering the belief he's guilty. It's going to be a media circus if he's at training camp or if he isn't. And maybe Kane would just want to play hockey with his teammates to get ready for the season.

 

[Hawks818]

In Kane's case, a grand jury hearing makes it more likely charges will be filed. I think the best bet what the Hawks will do is give him a leave of absence WITH pay until then. I think that would prevent any trouble from the NHLPA as well.

I don't know about this. For the sake of argument, if the buffalo news never reported an investigation into Kane, there may never have been a grand jury assuming the da doesn't think there's much evidence to support the charge. The moment the investigation went public, the more inevitable the grand jury became in my opinion whether there's a good case or not.

 

[MR2010]

You're right. The difference was Voynov was charged with a crime, Doughty was not.

However, from what I understand, the investigation of Doughty wasn't even made public until AFTER the season was over. And on top of that it seemed like the alleged victim had a lot of holes in her story and lack of evidence from the get go.

Yes, Doughty's investigation went on for a few months before it became known to the public, and shortly after it became public it was made known the accuser had major credibility issues and the investigation was dropped and Doughty cleared soon after.

 

[archimet]

I may be mistaken, but I thought the Grand Jury makes a decision almost immediately. So on the 8th, if they decide on no indictment, wouldn't it make sense that the D.A. would close the investigation and not issue charges? I think if he really wanted to charge Kane and felt he had a solid chance to win, he would have done it on his own and not bothered with the grand jury.

If the Grand Jury does come back with an indictment, then it's going to be a long road ahead.

It might be a long road regardless of what the Grand Jury does. It's pretty reasonable to expect a civil lawsuit should the Grand Jury decide to not indict... Then what do the NHL and the Black Hawks do? I'd be careful about hoping for a quick resolution, because the only resolution I see that may be 'quick' is an indictment and arrest. Is that what you really want? It seems like all other resolutions will take some time to sort out.

 

[Nocando]

It might be a long road regardless of what the Grand Jury does. It's pretty reasonable to expect a civil lawsuit should the Grand Jury decide to not indict... Then what do the NHL and the Black Hawks do? I'd be careful about hoping for a quick resolution, because the only resolution I see that may be 'quick' is an indictment and arrest. Is that what you really want? It seems like all other resolutions will take some time to sort out.

Why would Kane sit out because of a civil lawsuit? We're a litigious country. People sue people all the time. If everyone sat out work during lawsuits, not too much work would be done. And, lawsuits can take years. I would doubt he'd be forced to not work because of a civil matter.

 

[archimet]

Why would Kane sit out because of a civil lawsuit? We're a litigious country. People sue people all the time. If everyone sat out work during lawsuits, not too much work would be done. And, lawsuits can take years. I would doubt he'd be forced to not work because of a civil matter.

We'll see. My gut tells me this is going to get really, really messy.

I have first-hand experience with a close relative that was forced out of her job based on serious allegations in a civil lawsuit... and she lost every job she managed to land after the lawsuit was filed. It went on for three years. She went broke and contemplated suicide often. Trust me, it was not a pleasant experience, even though I was only a witness to the events. It can and will be a messy, messy business if the plaintiffs wants to make it messy. There's little or nothing Patrick Kane, the Black Hawks or the NHL can do to stop someone from making life miserable for the defendant in a civil case if they are so inclined.

So we'll see.

 

[BHFan]

We'll see. My gut tells me this is going to get really, really messy.

I have first-hand experience with a close relative that was forced out of her job based on serious allegations in a civil lawsuit... and she lost every job she managed to land after the lawsuit was filed. It went on for three years. She went broke and contemplated suicide often. Trust me, it was not a pleasant experience, even though I was only a witness to the events. It can and will be a messy, messy business if the plaintiffs wants to make it messy. There's little or nothing Patrick Kane, the Black Hawks or the NHL can do to stop someone from making life miserable for the defendant in a civil case if they are so inclined.

So we'll see.

The one advantage that Patrick Kane has is lots of money. He can pay to keep it from getting messy. I would think his lawyers would require some kind of gag order for all parties involved before they even start to negotiate a civil settlement.