Player Discussion: Josh Bailey II

[PK Cronin]

What many people believe or perceive to be a top 6 player just isn't the reality anymore. It's as if all of you are stuck in 2007 NHL or the 1980's for what these players are supposed to be in terms of production.

How did I make excuses for Lee and Grabovski ??? I am not happy with Lee, Bailey and Grabovski to make that perfectly clear. How can you say though that you don't want to hear "excuses" for Lee because he's a year younger. Bailey has been playing against NHL talent for 8 years! Lee is in his 2nd full NHL season...you can't compare the two. Lee needs to find his way (I'm not saying he ever will) Bailey has hit his ceiling...this is it.

You covered them by saying one was a sophomore slump and the other was a risk. Why aren't you posting in their threads talking about their lack of production? Nobody is saying Bailey hasn't hit his ceiling, I'm not expecting anything else from him as a player. It's others who are waiting for Bailey to develop further and cannot seem to appreciate the player he is.

Also I never said he is a bad player...he is bad in a top 6 role that is all I said. He's a fine NHLer...an inconsistent one but yes NHL talent. Also I never said Grabovskis play is allowed to be swept under a rag because we knew he was a risk...I said I am not happy with him but short of waiving or buying him out he is going nowhere because he is unmovable. Yes Bailey has more goals then some guys but look at goals per 60 he's below Cizikas, Clutterbuck etc... And how can you talk of Baileys game and say you don't care about goals? He's in our top 6...they are need to win games. Wether he's a goal score or not...4 in the last 39 and 1 in 19 is pathetic and does not cut it. Also I never once mentioned PIMs or hits, but how is he not hurting the team ? He doesn't shoot, he doesn't score, he has 4 power play points all year...how is that the sign of a smart hockey player ? He's clearly not making good choices. He's been very weak on the puck, can't control it for ****, is invisible and plays in our top 6... His points matter and so do goals wether you care about that or not. Let's be clear about something else...I am not a Bailey hater, I hate Bailey on the 1st and 2nd line. If he was on the 3rd line then okay, that's where he should be. Also I am mad this issue haven't been addressed by Snow. It's not personal vs Bailey he's just should not be in the top 6 and watching him dissapear for 15 games then having a mediocre 5 etc is frustrating.

You can't point to the second unit's PP numbers and use that as an example of how poor someone is on the PP. They don't get the same time as the first unit, it's not with the same players, and it's often after some sort of scrambling in the neutral zone. He doesn't score, but neither does Joe Thornton. That doesn't mean Joe is a poor hockey player (and yes, I understand he scores more than Bailey, but his primary role is to rack up assists).

His points matter, but over the course of a season. I'm not interested in looking at a particular sampling of games from a 26 year old player, who has a proven and consistent track record, and bashing him about it. He's not playing particularly well. Has he been awful? Has he cost us games by making boneheaded decisions? No, not really.

I certainly did not invent that I've seen the whole X out of 180 things almost every time I'm in this thread and another poster just said the same thing. Moulson was getting top 6 minutes until they realized he's not a top 6 player. Moulson racked up points with JT at a level Bailey never has but now Moulson is on the 4th line somewhere where as Bailey is still in a top 6 position. This is proving my point and I don't get what yours is...and I'm not trying to be a dick. Yes you will have better offensive output surrounded by better players. It just doesn't mean it's where you would be most affective or where your best suited. Clearly Boulton would have more points with JT over Cizikas but he hurts the team way more with JT. Bailey is just not being used properly and it's because of our lack of offensive talent.

How did Buffalo realize Moulson wasn't a top 6 player if all players get more points when playing in the top 6? Your point that being in the top 6 was that you automatically get more points. It's simply a lie. You get the opportunity to collect more points, since you get more ice time. You also may get the opportunity to play with more talented players. However, neither of those things guarantee a player will have a larger point total.

Boulton wouldn't get a large bump from playing on the top line. He'd also hurt possession so much that it would probably detract from the offensive output as a whole. That's not the case with Bailey.

Bailey isn't the only scapegoat. I think everyone will say grabo, Lee, kulemin, Bailey, strome are all not up to par. Bailey is just the hardest to swallow right now. There is a reason this thread is close to needing a part 2. If we had Taylor hall and could move Bailey down to the 3rd line the complaints would drop but until then people will be frustrated with josh with cappys use of josh and snows inability to give Cappy a better top 6 player then Bailey. It's not just about Bailey.

They wouldn't go away, because that's where Bailey was playing last night. Unless you're going to make the argument that Nelson and Bailey are now our second line over Nielsen and Okposo.

 

[periferal]

That's right, we hit a second thread.

And still nowhere closer to...


1) Bailey detractors admitting he has value
2) Bailey supporters failing to see that you can still hurt a team even if you put up an ok amount of points

 

[Seph]

And still nowhere closer to...


1) Bailey detractors admitting he has value
2) Bailey supporters failing to see that you can still hurt a team even if you put up an ok amount of points

No one's said he never hurts the team. The point is that his production is in line with expectations for a top six forward, as is his defense. He is not an elite top 6 player by any stretch, and as such he does have his faults -- no one has indicated otherwise. But overall, his contributions outweighs his detriments, and he should be viewed as a valid option in the top 6.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

And still nowhere closer to...


1) Bailey detractors admitting he has value
2) Bailey supporters failing to see that you can still hurt a team even if you put up an ok amount of points

1 is proven by the data, repeatedly, and relentlessly.

Tell us how he hurts the team, produce the data to support it, and I'll accept it as truth. Of course, then someone would have to support their opinion with facts and that isn't too popular with the folks who are so upset with Josh Bailey.

 

[enigmatic]

i think any sane person can see that JB is a decent player and is fine as a 2nd or 3rd liner...however, what irks me about his game (and i am sure others), is the below:

1. he constantly overthinks simple situations
2. he seems to get outworked
3. kind of in line with number 2, he gets out muscled CONSTANTLY when 'battling' for loose pucks in the slot or near the net


if he learned to shoot the damn puck instead of trying to make the cute play, and increased his battle level (cant believe i just said that), he would be a damn good player

 

[Lame Lambert]

1 is proven by the data, repeatedly, and relentlessly.

Tell us how he hurts the team, produce the data to support it, and I'll accept it as truth. Of course, then someone would have to support their opinion with facts and that isn't too popular with the folks who are so upset with Josh Bailey.

Hot Josh Bailey Taek

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Hot Josh Bailey Taek

You like the new sig? We're serving up hot Josh Bailey taek's anyway you like:

Deep fried taek? He provides no offense.

Pan-seared taeks? The difference between Bails and Hossa is Hossa's identical offense.

Grilled taeks with herbed butter? He doesn't take enough minor penalties.

On a diet? How about a steamed taek with brown rice? Bailey was drafted too high (we could have had Nikita Filatov!!!!)

 

[danteipp]

I think we can all probably agree that for the Isles to become serious cup contenders year in and year out, certain players like Josh Bailey (and he is not alone in this since there are others teetering on this fringe as well), will need to elevate their game to the next level or risk either being moved further down in the lineup (and replaced at the top by better players) or moved out entirely. Some players will step up while others will simply step aside. Ultimately it is the evolution of a contender with only so many roster spots and ice time to go around. Hopefully the Isles make the right call(s) to take the next step.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I think we can all probably agree that for the Isles to become serious cup contenders year in and year out, certain players like Josh Bailey (and he is not alone in this since there are others teetering on this fringe as well), will need to elevate their game to the next level or risk either being moved further down in the lineup (and replaced at the top by better players) or moved out entirely. Some players will step up while others will simply step aside. Ultimately it is the evolution of a contender with only so many roster spots and ice time to go around. Hopefully the Isles make the right call(s) to take the next step.

Effective "depth players" like Bailey, Kulemin, Garbovski, etc. are precisely what a cup contender needs.

Another big-time difference up front obviously wouldn't hurt either...

 

[Lame Lambert]

You like the new sig? We're serving up hot Josh Bailey taek's anyway you like:

Deep fried taek? He provides no offense.

Pan-seared taeks? The difference between Bails and Hossa is Hossa's identical offense.

Grilled taeks with herbed butter? He doesn't take enough minor penalties.

On a diet? How about a steamed taek with brown rice? Bailey was drafted too high (we could have had Nikita Filatov!!!!)

I love it. 3 things always make me laugh when I see them:
1) Hot Josh Bailey Taek
2) Dark Horse's "it is what it is"
3) Trevor Gillies at the drive through

 

[Abe Vukota]

IMO these taeks are even more scorching than the original meme can taek. So when someone goes full-on HOTTEST OF HOT TAEKS, you'll need a weapon with which to shield yourself, and a way to celebrate that person's greatness. You'll need an...

 

[Lame Lambert]

IMO these taeks are even more scorching than the original meme can taek. So when someone goes full-on HOTTEST OF HOT TAEKS, you'll need a weapon with which to shield yourself, and a way to celebrate that person's greatness. You'll need an...

 

[Lame Lambert]

Where's the "chains" meme to top this off?

 

[Abe Vukota]

If you'd like to experiment with usage, please see my taek below:

Here's the thing: Bailey's a guy who thinks he can score a hundred goals a game but never takes any shots and passes first but not enough. He's too old to be so young. He needs to work a lot harder and realize it takes more than hard work to succeed. Personally, I'd like to see him face a firing squad. He needs to be physical like a Matt Moulson/Marian Hossa type. He needs to stop overthinking things and play a smarter game. He's not a smart player, so he needs to capitalize on his strengths, of which he has none. This is A FIRST ROUND PICK? lol, trade him for a bag of pucks, or package him with a 3rd and go out and get Buff.

 

[Abe Vukota]

Where's the "chains" meme to top this off?

Josh Bailey's favorite song:

 

[danteipp]

Effective "depth players" like Bailey, Kulemin, Garbovski, etc. are precisely what a cup contender needs.

Another big-time difference up front obviously wouldn't hurt either...

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. To clarify, cup contenders need the right mix of quality depth players and stars/difference makers - all while navigating the salary cap and getting lucky in terms of health.

I do not believe the Isles have the correct mix of that yet, but they are trending in the right direction and getting there, to hopefully find the right mix. They are probably 2-3 players away from being a "finished" product and it will be interesting to see who those players are in the end, who stays and who goes to complete the transition from good to great.

 

[Sparksrus3]

Josh Bailey takes the Mohammed Ali approach.
Floats like a butterfly and ouch that stings.

When you finish watching the game on TV or at Barclays and you think to yourself
Was Bailey in the lineup today? That's the problem !!!!!!!!!!game after game after game after game.
In baseball they say no runs , no hits, no errors, and none left on base.
He is the most invisible player I have EVER not seen in the NHL.
Tanner Glass , at least you know he is on the ice.
Maybe Josh should have been an NFL offensive lineman . Now that's a position where not being noticed or not having your name called gets you to the Pro Bowl.
He was getting 16-18 minutes a game for a stretch. That's prime minutes. At least Cappy has been reducing his time lately.

About Hossa, Marcel Hossa maybe.
When Marion was around 26 years of age he put up 92 and 100 points back to back.

" my birth certificate and my arrest sheet is all there is to know I was alive"

This kid has unfortunately been influenced at the Brian Rolston school of suck azz.
But at least Rolston had a very good career prior to raping the isles.
Why do anything , when you can Disney on Ice your way through life.
A tough head coach would , shock the shoes off him.
Just way to comfortable with his position on the team.
All that cutie patootie play has to stop.
Maybe he should wear the no contact Jersey during the games. At least he would be noticed.
Shoot the puck Bailey shoot the puck. From the Barry beck days.
Ok I'm done for today.

No PIM issues today . Lol.

 

[PK Cronin]

And still nowhere closer to...


1) Bailey detractors admitting he has value
2) Bailey supporters failing to see that you can still hurt a team even if you put up an ok amount of points

He has flaws, but hurts the team less than others do. The main issue with Bailey is the roster honestly. It's redundant. Strome, Nelson, Nielsen, Bailey, and Grabovski are all too similar. Not physical, don't battle on the wall extremely well, and minus Nelson, are mostly pass first guys. Some variety may help our team and the lineup out, a player with a similar stat line but who adds a different element to the game perhaps, but that doesn't mean the issue is Bailey. Plenty of teams would love to have and I still think he is a valuable player for our team.

If he were traded, it wouldn't be the end of the world, as long as it's for someone of similar production with that different element or someone like Drouin who has a higher ceiling now and could at worse be Josh Bailey. I'm in favor of a move like either of the aforementioned type of moves. Why? It's not that Bailey is bad, but that he's older, more stagnant in his development, and has a higher cap hit than three of the other guys on our roster that could take his spot. Grabovski and Bailey should be the first two lined up to trade if possible, followed by Lee and Kulemin. Unfortunately, two of those guys are likely untradeable at this point.

It still blows my mind that people harp on him so much when there are others, being paid more, that do less. Anyone who complains about his production or his salary at this point in time just isn't in touch with what is going on in the NHL. Many of which are the same who say Okposo is only worth 5 million max. The game/business has passed these people by.

 

[TheWhiteWhale30]

Someone else did it, not me.



This guy is saying that Bailey doesn't bring offense, but Hossa does. THEY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF EV POINTS!!!!

You have to really, really, really hate Josh Bailey, in the most unreasonable fashion, to consider the fact that they have THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS to be irrelevant to the quoted portion above.

I never said I meant this season I meant Hossa in general and the type of player he was his whole career...Hossa is old as **** lol let's compare Hossa now to Bailey in his prime as why Bailey is a top 6 foward. Again somewhat putting words in my mouth. Also I was never really comparing him to Hossa. I made a list of top 6 players who excel offensively and defensively. Before you know it a page later I was apparently saying something else.

Also how come Powerplay points never mean anything around here lol they count just as much on the scoresheet.

This is why I never come into the Bailey thread..it's redundant and silly. I've stated these "facts" people ask for in why he is not a top 6 and all the disagreeing responses are just a bunch of a word twisting/ grasping at straws arguments and "look at his EV strengths play on a Thursday night and the night of full moon" (clearly I'm just poking fun here) or when I've stated more then once in my last few posts here that I do not hate him but that I hate him in a top 6 role and all I get is "I must hate bailey so much beyond any reasonable fashion" etc...type responses lol Agree to disagree cause I'm over it. One day when he's not in our top 6 anymore I will come back to this thread. He's there because we have no one better, end of story.

 

[PK Cronin]

I never said I meant this season I meant Hossa in general and the type of player he was his whole career...Hossa is old as **** lol let's compare Hossa now to Bailey on his prime as why Bailey is a top 6 foward. Again somewhat putting words in my mouth.

Also how come Powerplay points never mean anything around here lol they count just as much on the scoresheet.

PP points count, but there's a limited number of spots on the top PP unit. Why would you compare two players who aren't being put in the same situations? You might say that so and so is better and it's demonstrated by the fact that they're on the PP. I'd point to the lack of PP success and our coach who insists Strait is a great PKer.

If two players both play similar amounts of time and one gets PP time while the other doesn't, why is that data relevant? All it does is make us question whether or not the other player would have the same success or failure if put in the same situation.

Also, as I've mentioned earlier, comparing a top unit to the 2nd unit just sways things in such a ridiculous manner. Tavares could be on the 2nd unit and it wouldn't produce still because of how infrequently they are used in combination with when they get to see ice time.

This is why I never come into the Bailey thread..it's redundant and silly. I've stated these "facts" people ask for in why he is not a top 6 and all the disagreeing responses are just a bunch of a word twisting/ grasping at straws arguments and "look at his EV strengths play on a Thursday night and the night of full moon" (clearly I'm just poking fun here) or when I've stated more then once in my last few posts here that I do not hate him but that I hate him in a top 6 role and all I get is "I must hate bailey so much beyond any reasonable fashion" etc...type responses lol Agree to disagree cause I'm over it. One day when he's not in our top 6 anymore I will come back to this thread. He's there because we have no one better, end of story.

Nobody is twisting stats on the "pro" Bailey side. I've seen countless posters talk about [x] amount of points in [y] amount of games. I've seen countless posts about how he's overpaid. I've seen countless people claim he doesn't produce well enough to be a top 6 forward. That is twisting statistics or ignoring facts.

You don't have to like Bailey in the top 6. But when you, or anyone, is trying to provide evidence for him not being a top 6 forward, or being overpaid, or that nobody would complain if he was on our 3rd line, etc., it helps to actually back that stuff up. It helps to look at the nightly lineup and see where he's slotted. It helps to look around the league at scoring in general. It helps to look at guys around his point production and where he ranks in the NHL. It helps to check out other comparable contracts in the NHL and see if he really is overpaid.

I like Bailey, and even I wouldn't mind him being traded for a different kind of top 6 player because our roster has too much redundancy. You don't have to like him on this team, but you have to acknowledge the facts about his production and role in the NHL.

 

[TheWhiteWhale30]

PP points count, but there's a limited number of spots on the top PP unit. Why would you compare two players who aren't being put in the same situations? You might say that so and so is better and it's demonstrated by the fact that they're on the PP. I'd point to the lack of PP success and our coach who insists Strait is a great PKer.

If two players both play similar amounts of time and one gets PP time while the other doesn't, why is that data relevant? All it does is make us question whether or not the other player would have the same success or failure if put in the same situation.

Also, as I've mentioned earlier, comparing a top unit to the 2nd unit just sways things in such a ridiculous manner. Tavares could be on the 2nd unit and it wouldn't produce still because of how infrequently they are used in combination with when they get to see ice time.



Nobody is twisting stats on the "pro" Bailey side. I've seen countless posters talk about [x] amount of points in [y] amount of games. I've seen countless posts about how he's overpaid. I've seen countless people claim he doesn't produce well enough to be a top 6 forward. That is twisting statistics or ignoring facts.

You don't have to like Bailey in the top 6. But when you, or anyone, is trying to provide evidence for him not being a top 6 forward, or being overpaid, or that nobody would complain if he was on our 3rd line, etc., it helps to actually back that stuff up. It helps to look at the nightly lineup and see where he's slotted. It helps to look around the league at scoring in general. It helps to look at guys around his point production and where he ranks in the NHL. It helps to check out other comparable contracts in the NHL and see if he really is overpaid.

I like Bailey, and even I wouldn't mind him being traded for a different kind of top 6 player because our roster has too much redundancy. You don't have to like him on this team, but you have to acknowledge the facts about his production and role in the NHL.

I do all of these things. I have provided plenty of valuable and accurate arguments. It's just not worth the repetitive back and worth... It's too exhausting . Like I said agree to disagree. Good conversing with ya bud.

 

[blitzkriegs]

It's redundant. Strome, Nelson, Nielsen, Bailey, and Grabovski are all too similar. Not physical, don't battle on the wall extremely well, and minus Nelson, are mostly pass first guys.

I like this observation. This was good to get the Isles out of the perennial lack of F depth and lottery contention mode. However, now as a 'playoff contender' its questionable whether this group is 2nd and 3rd rounder material as currently constructed.

 

[Bones45]

I do all of these things. I have provided plenty of valuable and accurate arguments. It's just not worth the repetitive back and worth... It's too exhausting . Like I said agree to disagree. Good conversing with ya bud.

This entire place has turned into a statistics board. "Isles HF Stats board".

You can't even post your thoughts or opinions here anymore on any topic unless you back it up with some facts. You post on a thread your thoughts on anything without the proper documentation in triplicate, you are told you are wrong and your post has no value. Arrogance and condescension is rampant.

The worst part is that it started with just one person and spread to multiple posters. Like its a good thing to talk down to people who just want to discuss our favorite team.

THAT is why I think this board has suffered. (Course, that's just my opinion, I don't have a thesis or a link to prove it)

 

[rikker]

This entire place has turned into a statistics board. "Isles HF Stats board".

You can't even post your thoughts or opinions here anymore on any topic unless you back it up with some facts. You post on a thread your thoughts on anything without the proper documentation in triplicate, you are told you are wrong and your post has no value. Arrogance and condescension is rampant.

The worst part is that it started with just one person and spread to multiple posters. Like its a good thing to talk down to people who just want to discuss our favorite team.

THAT is why I think this board has suffered. (Course, that's just my opinion, I don't have a thesis or a link to prove it)

prior to you saying this, i was thinking to myself, "where's Bones?". thinking to myself that there is a 90-90% chance that you will be back and say what you said.

+/- 3%...

 

[Kevin27NYI]

This entire place has turned into a statistics board. "Isles HF Stats board".

You can't even post your thoughts or opinions here anymore on any topic unless you back it up with some facts. You post on a thread your thoughts on anything without the proper documentation in triplicate, you are told you are wrong and your post has no value. Arrogance and condescension is rampant.

The worst part is that it started with just one person and spread to multiple posters. Like its a good thing to talk down to people who just want to discuss our favorite team.

THAT is why I think this board has suffered. (Course, that's just my opinion, I don't have a thesis or a link to prove it)

I agree with some of this but this shouldn't affect you as much as it is. When I watch Bailey lose two puck battles in one shift like last night where he ends up on his ass and then there is the fact that he has like 4 points in his last 16 games and one goal in his last 19. I can say he's struggling. He is struggling.

You don't need to answer to everyone, if some asks for data, you don't need to respond, you can answer with, this shift, this period he did this wrong.

Let's talk about Bailey and not the state of the board or posters. Thank you.

Bailey has been bad lately. He had a really good stretch and has gone back to Invisibailey and such has been the narrative of his career. Once he gets his next stretch of points, like 8 in 9, I trade his ass at the deadline. Better yet, keep him, still add a dominant piece at the deadline and then ship him off in the offseason hoping he has the playoff he did last year and get good value. His too highs and too lows are too frustrating and the lows last longer than the highs.