Johnsson and Kapanen..

[Nithoniniel]

I feel like the Leafs need to start finding a way to properly address the glaring need for an all around defenseman. The only way to do that is to give up one of the big 3.

This is just not true at all. There's plenty of room to add improvement in the defensive group, especially if we decide to bridge a Nylander or Marner.

For me Johnsson and Kapanen make Nylander expendable. Not many will want to hear this, however while Nylander may have the higher offensive ceiling both Johnsson and Kapenen are better two way players.

I don't understand this train of thought. Nylander has started his career in a way that you usually just see from guys that go on to become top end players. You think that he may have a higher offensive ceiling than someone who is older and who is just now even working his way into the league?

 

[Erndog]

For me Johnsson and Kapanen make Nylander expendable. Not many will want to hear this, however while Nylander may have the higher offensive ceiling both Johnsson and Kapenen are better two way players..

Go outside and enjoy the nice weather

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

This is just not true at all. There's plenty of room to add improvement in the defensive group, especially if we decide to bridge a Nylander or Marner.

Sure. So what exactly is your suggestion in addressing the glaring defense void?

 

[Notsince67]

Sure. So what exactly is your suggestion in addressing the glaring defense void?

Trading for Jacob Trouba with a package that could include Johnsson and Kapanen

 

[Nithoniniel]

Sure. So what exactly is your suggestion in addressing the glaring defense void?

My solution would be to acquire Petry, since Canadiens is apparently looking for a quick rebuild, and Rasmus Andersson from Calgary. The following group would be very competitive:

Rielly - Petry
Gardiner - Andersson
Dermott - Zaitsev

I think those two guys would cost us nothing more than 1st, Kapanen and another of our better prospects.

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

I don't understand this train of thought. Nylander has started his career in a way that you usually just see from guys that go on to become top end players. You think that he may have a higher offensive ceiling than someone who is older and who is just now even working his way into the league?

Yes Nylander is a talent, however we also need talent on the backend. Point being you can slot a guy like Kapenen or Johnsson next to Matthews and get a similar level of production. In an ideal world Travis Dermott is Duncan Keith and Calle Rosen is Breant Seabrook. Unfortunately this is not the case.

Envisioning a world where guys like Seth Jones can get traded for guys like Ryan Johansen.

 

[SprDaVE]

My solution would be to acquire Petry, since Canadiens is apparently looking for a quick rebuild, and Rasmus Andersson from Calgary. The following group would be very competitive:

Rielly - Petry
Gardiner - Andersson
Dermott - Zaitsev

I think those two guys would cost us nothing more than 1st, Kapanen and another of our better prospects.

I think Petry is fairly underrated.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Yes Nylander is a talent, however we also need talent on the backend. Point being you can slot a guy like Kapenen or Johnsson next to Matthews and get a similar level of production.

No, you really can't. Nylander was integral to that line, Matthews and Hyman saw their numbers plummet without him. He's not interchangeable with a Kapanen or Johnsson.

Envisioning a world where guys like Seth Jones can get traded for guys like Ryan Johansen.

And that happened because Seth Jones was stuck in a depth role behind other elite talents. There is no player like that available around the league. The Seth Jones comparables are not available.

I think Petry is fairly underrated.

Me too, hence my interest. He'd be a perfect complement to Rielly.

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

No, you really can't. Nylander was integral to that line, Matthews and Hyman saw their numbers plummet without him. He's not interchangeable with a Kapanen or Johnsson.


And that happened because Seth Jones was stuck in a depth role behind other elite talents. There is no player like that available around the league. The Seth Jones comparables are not available.

Provide context on your "numbers plummet" statement. Im curious to know the exact numbers.

Dougie Hamilton could be on the block

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I think Petry is fairly underrated.

He's the guy I had hoped they would target last year at the deadline instead of wasting assets on a UFA Pleks.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Running an NHL hockey team isn't like playing be a GM mode. You don't trade your leading scorer when you're getting ready for the playoffs. We should have beaten Boston. I think losing JVR will hurt but we can be a deep enough team without him, I'm very curious to see the new power play lines next season.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

For me Johnsson and Kapanen make Nylander expendable. Not many will want to hear this, however while Nylander may have the higher offensive ceiling both Johnsson and Kapenen are better two way players.

The only reason why i'd hang onto Nylander at this point is if hes able to make it as a center. I will preface this comment and point out that the only asset we are trading him for is for a defenseman.

definitely not. At best we can hope that they can soften the blow of losing JVR. They don't even come close to making Nylander expendable

 

[PromisedLand]

No but Carlson was an UFA just like JVR and Bozak and Caps could have got som thing for him in return.

The point I was trying to make was that Carlson was the "go to guy" for the caps; playing important minutes and difficult mins; while bozak/jvr were NOT the "go to guys" for the Leafs

I am arguing that we tried to keep the UFAs that were not the "go to guys" and let them walk for a first round exit

 

[TexanGuy]

The point I was trying to make was that Carlson was the "go to guy" for the caps; playing important minutes and difficult mins; while bozak/jvr were NOT the "go to guys" for the Leafs

I am arguing that we tried to keep the UFAs that were not the "go to guys" and let them walk for a first round exit

How is JVR not the top "Go to Guy"? He scored most goals and was our best Power Play guy. You really think whatever draft pick and prospect we would have got for him would have been our best goal scorer and top power play guy rest of the year? I see no difference with what what CAPS did with Carlson and what Leafs did with JVR. AS for Bozak, he was one of our 3 Centers? who would have replaced him there? Nylander or Marleau? That would have messed up the chemistry they had on their own lines. Also, team management and players probably believed this team was good enough to win a round or two, and if Lou had traded their good players what message would it have sent to the young players? Have you ever thought about this?

 

[PromisedLand]

How is JVR not the top "Go to Guy"? He scored most goals and was our best Power Play guy. You really think whatever draft pick and prospect we would have got for him would have been our best goal scorer and top power play guy rest of the year? I see no difference with what what CAPS did with Carlson and what Leafs did with JVR. AS for Bozak, he was one of our 3 Centers? who would have replaced him there? Nylander or Marleau? That would have messed up the chemistry they had on their own lines. Also, team management and players probably believed this team was good enough to win a round or two, and if Lou had traded their good players what message would it have sent to the young players? Have you ever thought about this?

Instead of rehashing everything I've already posted go read my post at the link below

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/johnsson-and-kapanen.2501681/page-3#post-146742505


Highlights:
JVR wasnt trusted as much in the playoffs and his time kept decreasing with every passing game (on average)

Also; you seem to be under the impression that jvr's return could not have been packaged to upgrade the D; which it easily could have been and we wouldnt be losing any assets that we have developed in the AHL to begin with; and even if we did; it wont as severe than now when we try to upgrade the D without any return on any of the pending UFAs

 

[ShaneFalco]

How is JVR not the top "Go to Guy"? He scored most goals and was our best Power Play guy. You really think whatever draft pick and prospect we would have got for him would have been our best goal scorer and top power play guy rest of the year? I see no difference with what what CAPS did with Carlson and what Leafs did with JVR. AS for Bozak, he was one of our 3 Centers? who would have replaced him there? Nylander or Marleau? That would have messed up the chemistry they had on their own lines. Also, team management and players probably believed this team was good enough to win a round or two, and if Lou had traded their good players what message would it have sent to the young players? Have you ever thought about this?

Washington if they lose Carlson, took a gamble and won the Cup
The Leafs who haven't been past the first round in ages, and are still re-tooling, gambled with FA's and lost. JVR is the one that stings

 

[Boutette]

Trading for Jacob Trouba with a package that could include Johnsson and Kapanen

So your solution for filling one hole is creating another. Yay?

 

[Notsince67]

So your solution for filling one hole is creating another. Yay?

We have forward positional depth and LHD depth. Nothing else.

 

[Gary Nylund]

How is JVR not the top "Go to Guy"? He scored most goals and was our best Power Play guy. You really think whatever draft pick and prospect we would have got for him would have been our best goal scorer and top power play guy rest of the year? I see no difference with what what CAPS did with Carlson and what Leafs did with JVR. AS for Bozak, he was one of our 3 Centers? who would have replaced him there? Nylander or Marleau? That would have messed up the chemistry they had on their own lines.

Yeah we had so much chemistry that so many of our players didn't play well in the playoffs and JVR specifically was a non-factor.

Also, team management and players probably believed this team was good enough to win a round or two, and if Lou had traded their good players what message would it have sent to the young players? Have you ever thought about this?

I don't believe our players are so mentally fragile that we need to be concerned with what "message" trading JVR would send. If JVR were traded for futures then some players may have been disappointed at the time but they'd be over it long before training camp started. And if those futures were flipped this summer in a package that landed us a top 4 Dman, then even better - they'd probably forget JVR ever existed.

Players play, GM's manage, both focusing on their jobs is a recipe for success.

 

[saltming]

Yeah we had so much chemistry that so many of our players didn't play well in the playoffs and JVR specifically was a non-factor.



I don't believe our players are so mentally fragile that we need to be concerned with what "message" trading JVR would send. If JVR were traded for futures then some players may have been disappointed at the time but they'd be over it long before training camp started. And if those futures were flipped this summer in a package that landed us a top 4 Dman, then even better - they'd probably forget JVR ever existed.

Players play, GM's manage, both focusing on their jobs is a recipe for success.

While I agree they would get over it I still see the value of sending a positive message of support to the troops. Moral is that is ephemeral but has a big affect.
Sure in this instance it didn' get us past the first round but maybe we would have been swept like some other Toronto team that was gelded in game 1 of their series. Starting the playoff thinking management expects us to fail can' be good.

 

[Gary Nylund]

While I agree they would get over it I still see the value of sending a positive message of support to the troops. Moral is that is ephemeral but has a big affect.
Sure in this instance it didn' get us past the first round but maybe we would have been swept like some other Toronto team that was gelded in game 1 of their series. Starting the playoff thinking management expects us to fail can' be good.

Sure, I think there's some value there too. The question is how much value? IMHO, I think the message was worth it in the case of Boyle but not worth it in the case of JVR.

 

[saltming]

Sure, I think there's some value there too. The question is how much value? IMHO, I think the message was worth it in the case of Boyle but not worth it in the case of JVR.

So worth not going out to get Boyle but worth it to keep JVR?
Or vice versa?

 

[rent free]

Running an NHL hockey team isn't like playing be a GM mode. You don't trade your leading scorer when you're getting ready for the playoffs. We should have beaten Boston. I think losing JVR will hurt but we can be a deep enough team without him, I'm very curious to see the new power play lines next season.

we shouldn't have beaten boston at all. we were outplayed in all but 1 game

 

[rent free]

So your solution for filling one hole is creating another. Yay?

what hole would be created? 4th line? that is easily replacable

 

[Gary Nylund]

So worth not going out to get Boyle but worth it to keep JVR?
Or vice versa?

Worth getting Boyle, not worth it keeping JVR.

Boyle was easily worth it (to me anyway) because we hadn't made the playoffs in ages, we were in a dogfight to make it and with a team full of rookies and the weight of Maple Leafs history on their backs, making the playoffs was enormous. Also, if any team ever needed positive reinforcement than it was that team full of rookies. I think it was a watershed moment that took a ton of pressure off going into the next season, easily worth a 2nd round pick.

JVR on the other hand, we were already a playoff team so that pressure didn't exist. And of course as I have pointed out many times we were going to be a 1st round dog with or without JVR so there's that too. And of course not trading JVR cost us a helluva lot more then the 2nd round pick we paid for Boyle.