Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,083
29,160
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
Yeah, about the only guy who openly slagged the organization after leaving I can remember (apart from Quincey but that was a long time ago) is Danny Briere, and I don't hold much stock in that since he was way since done by the time he came over anyway. I don't doubt for a moment Joe tries to do right by players, sometimes to a fault, but hey it's better than if he was completely ruthless or worse, conveniently leaked damaging information about a departing player to the press like Boston seems to do all the time.

So yes, there is something to be said about being an organization that takes care of its players.
 

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,277
31,362
Joe was always the most intelligent and respected in hockey, why rid we doubt him , oh yeah Roy

It's funny, that sentence reads the way all these criticisms originate. People don't know why something is going poorly, so they just blame Roy.
 

CobraAcesS

De Opresso Liber
Sponsor
Jul 20, 2011
25,895
9,874
Michigan
Well, I think we can blame Roy for one thing for certain--pushing for the team to take MacKinnon first overall.

My plate of crow for saying he'll never change my mind regarding him being taken over Jones is getting bigger and bigger. I might have to hit the crow buffet line by the end of the season.

Edit..

You know you're turning the corner when you spend coin on memorabilia for a player that you didn't want picked. I bought this recently to rub it in as well.

img-140223-f.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pokecheque

5280

To the window!
Jan 15, 2011
10,374
3,295
North Cackolacka
Yeah I was a Jones guy, then I saw the Memorial Cup and I decided they had to get THAT guy (Mack) I’m not sure Jones would have been such a bad pick, though​
 

Sea Eagles

Registered User
Feb 7, 2012
5,733
6,304
From the basement, to the playoffs (in my opinion). Has to be up there for GM of the year this season. I mean, McPhee will get it from here, but yeah, Sakic should be a candidate, which is great because everyone wanted him out at one point.
 

Hasbro

Family Friend
Sponsor
Apr 1, 2004
52,541
16,568
South Rectangle
Well, I think we can blame Roy for one thing for certain--pushing for the team to take MacKinnon first overall.
Yep I'll eat crow on Jones. Granted if Mac were doing this in Florida and Jones had turned out along the same lines he has I wouldn't be disastified especially given what he would have done for the team in this city and our blueline mess until this year.

Roy also deserves credit for getting the team looking at Europe, particularly Russia in the draft again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pokecheque

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,083
29,160
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
Yeah, Roy still polarizes a lot of people around here. That's understandable. I think he gets simultaneously too much credit AND too much blame for things, but ultimately, the lasting changes he and Sakic have made will benefit the organization.
 

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,083
29,160
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
Fixed it for you. Roy was a mistake.

I don't think you can separate the two that easily. Roy was definitely the guy pushing for MacKinnon, Roy was also very public about developing players properly, and Roy played a role in getting the drafting/development of this club on track for possibly the first time in its existence in Denver. Even the big mistakes, like the slew of old fart signings, can't be completely on him--Sakic signed off on those.

If anything I blame the setup, it was going to fail no matter what. You can't have a GM and a coach with an unspecified role in front office duties. Either Sakic should've been a glorified capologist (the Greg Sherman role) or Roy shouldn't have had anything beyond a voice in terms of personnel decisions.

The only things I put solely on Roy are the mishandling of Will Butcher, which, in the long run doesn't appear to have hurt the organization, and his mistakes in terms of coaching.
 

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,277
31,362
The only things I put solely on Roy are the mishandling of Will Butcher, which, in the long run doesn't appear to have hurt the organization, and his mistakes in terms of coaching.

And the only source of such mishandling relies 100% on the credibility of reporting from one highly non credible Mike Chambers. Especially when it comes to his highly biased area of collegiate players, and his disproven myth of the Avs being against them.

Chambers easily could have misinterpreted, or made assumptions about, or exaggerated the nature of a conversation the Avs or Roy had with Butcher. It could have been as simple as not wanting to sign him one specific off season, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Chambers turned that into the Avs not wanting to sign Butcher at all. He's proven he makes those kind of assumptions and exaggerations in his reporting all the time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pokecheque

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,083
29,160
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
BTW, it's my understanding that Josh Kroenke has been the biggest reason why the Avs (and now all other KSE-owned teams) have incorporated analytics. And yes, I think it's a big reason why this team appears to be on the right track. I'm still curious to see how big a role it plays in Hepple's decision-making. We know it plays some role at the very least.
 

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,277
31,362
BTW, it's my understanding that Josh Kroenke has been the biggest reason why the Avs (and now all other KSE-owned teams) have incorporated analytics. And yes, I think it's a big reason why this team appears to be on the right track. I'm still curious to see how big a role it plays in Hepple's decision-making. We know it plays some role at the very least.

We also saw in the video the Avs put out, that Arik Parnass was at the table during the final draft meetings with Hepple and the other scouts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pokecheque

Hasbro

Family Friend
Sponsor
Apr 1, 2004
52,541
16,568
South Rectangle
BTW, it's my understanding that Josh Kroenke has been the biggest reason why the Avs (and now all other KSE-owned teams) have incorporated analytics. And yes, I think it's a big reason why this team appears to be on the right track. I'm still curious to see how big a role it plays in Hepple's decision-making. We know it plays some role at the very least.
:facepalm:
 

McMetal

Writer of Wrongs
Sep 29, 2015
14,142
12,130
And the only source of such mishandling relies 100% on the credibility of reporting from one highly non credible Mike Chambers. Especially when it comes to his highly biased area of collegiate players, and his disproven myth of the Avs being against them.

Chambers easily could have misinterpreted, or made assumptions about, or exaggerated the nature of a conversation the Avs or Roy had with Butcher. It could have been as simple as not wanting to sign him one specific off season, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Chambers turned that into the Avs not wanting to sign Butcher at all. He's proven he makes those kind of assumptions and exaggerations in his reporting all the time.
I would agree with you, but the way Butcher snubbed us kind of bears out his version of events. Chambers may be a jackass, but I think he was much closer to the truth about what happened there than we think. If not that exact thing, something made him sour on the org.
 

Foppa2118

Registered User
Oct 3, 2003
52,277
31,362
I would agree with you, but the way Butcher snubbed us kind of bears out his version of events. Chambers may be a jackass, but I think he was much closer to the truth about what happened there than we think. If not that exact thing, something made him sour on the org.

I don't think him testing free agency confirms Chambers reporting of events. It just confirms he wanted to test free agency. We're still relying on Chambers in determining the nature of their conversations with Butcher, and Chambers has proven time and time again to get details wrong.
 

tigervixxxen

Optimism=Delusional
Jul 7, 2013
53,060
6,156
Denver
burgundy-review.com
The part in which I believe Chambers might have been on to something was the Avs not sounding all that interested in signing Butcher after his junior year and expressing that. They have been quick to say no thanks before and Roy made his opinions quite clear about what he thought about certain players. But how exactly it was framed we'll never know.

Supposedly leaning on analytics in the draft got us Cam Morrison so the jury is still out on how involved we want those folks to be in draft decisions.
 

Sea Eagles

Registered User
Feb 7, 2012
5,733
6,304
All I know, is I take Kerfoot on our team 100% (footnote: BECAUSE of our solid defensive position / quality / depth - how GREAT is it to be able to say that), over Butcher.
 

a mangy Meowth

Ross Colton Fan
Jun 21, 2012
11,576
7,952
Highlands Ranch, CO
The part in which I believe Chambers might have been on to something was the Avs not sounding all that interested in signing Butcher after his junior year and expressing that. They have been quick to say no thanks before and Roy made his opinions quite clear about what he thought about certain players. But how exactly it was framed we'll never know.

Supposedly leaning on analytics in the draft got us Cam Morrison so the jury is still out on how involved we want those folks to be in draft decisions.

Wow I haven't seen that name in a little while. He can't have already busted, can he? I thought he was playing at Notre Dame
 

Hasbro

Family Friend
Sponsor
Apr 1, 2004
52,541
16,568
South Rectangle
Please, by all means, elaborate.
The A word is such a trigger in sports. Anything the Avalanche do right will from now on get credited to Dawson who has been here since October and any missteps will get ascribed to management not listening to him.

Witness the Chyka apologists or people covering for Sachi Brown in the football thread. Or experiment yourself and disparage Corsi on a board here and see how quickly you become a though criminal. Or just take in the fact Mark Kiszla loves them.

Switching gears: looking at the Sakic thread on the main board, I forgot what an obnoxious idiot one of the posters at the end is.
 

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,083
29,160
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
The A word is such a trigger in sports. Anything the Avalanche do right will from now on get credited to Dawson who has been here since October and any missteps will get ascribed to management not listening to him.

Witness the Chyka apologists or people covering for Sachi Brown in the football thread. Or experiment yourself and disparage Corsi on a board here and see how quickly you become a though criminal. Or just take in the fact Mark Kiszla loves them.

Switching gears: looking at the Sakic thread on the main board, I forgot what an obnoxious idiot one of the posters at the end is.

There needs to be a delineation between the people who like stats, and the ones who actually compile them. Draglikepull is a pretty respected analytics guy on Twitter and he never has been a fan of Chayka. He's pointed out that many in the stats community were optimistic, but also wary of him. He publicly champions stats regularly, says a lot of the things that stat-whackers say, but no one really knows his statistical aptitude.

One very telling thing either DLP or Burtch (can't remember which guy it was) said on Twitter not long after the Duclair deal, is that analytics doesn't help a team get the star players. Anyone can tank and draft a star, or a sign a big-name free agent, it's on the fringes that you can gain some insight as to who might be worth a gamble and who might not be. Chayka's never really done anything to add that fringe talent. I mean, FFS, this so-called stats expert employs ZAC RINALDO. If that's not an indictment I don't know what is.

I think you make a good point though. Stats are not infallible, and NO ONE should be treating them as such. But what they can do when incorporated properly is narrow the margin of error. I think the fallacy by both those who like and hate stats is in labeling this team or that the "analytics" team and using said team as a litmus test. Truth is, we'll probably never really know the degree by which stats guide a team's decisions because they don't make their work public. And that's probably a good thing. I personally enjoy seeing the stats but can admit I don't have a thorough understanding of them, and in the past have drawn some erroneous conclusions.

I don't see the downside really of the Avs incorporating analytics. We know they work. But that's just one piece of a much larger puzzle. So far a lot of it *seems* to be falling into place, but only time will tell if they are finally, truly, on the right path.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hooverdam

Pokecheque

I’ve been told it’s spelled “Pokecheck”
Sponsor
Aug 5, 2003
46,083
29,160
The Flatlands
www.armoredheadspace.com
Oh, and let's be clear on one thing. Kiz is, as usual, talking right out of his ass if he's trying to pump stats. He's only doing so because it fits his narrative for now. He'd just as easily turn on the numbers if they didn't. He has no idea how said numbers work, he's just jumping on what other people say about them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad