Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

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Pokecheque

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I'll admit the Duchene deal has done a ton to ease my concerns, and yes, he's purged nearly all of the problem players from last year's disaster. But I still think he completely and utterly dropped the ball at the deadline and that still bothers the hell out of me.
 

Foppa2118

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I'll admit the Duchene deal has done a ton to ease my concerns, and yes, he's purged nearly all of the problem players from last year's disaster. But I still think he completely and utterly dropped the ball at the deadline and that still bothers the hell out of me.

I think most of us think he's made mistakes previously. Some of them fairly bad IMO. He did get a good haul for Duchene and that was due to sticking to his guns despite enormous pressure from other GM's and Canadian media, so that's a good thing.

If he has just been learning on the job this whole time, but has grown a lot in the last year or so, then that's a good thing. We'll have to see how he handles things from now on on, but personally I've given him a bit of a clean slate based on the Duchene trade. It's what he does from here on out that matters to me.
 

Sea Eagles

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I'll admit the Duchene deal has done a ton to ease my concerns, and yes, he's purged nearly all of the problem players from last year's disaster. But I still think he completely and utterly dropped the ball at the deadline and that still bothers the hell out of me.

Ok, but give him credit for trading Martinsen for Andrighetto. That was a huge win imo.
Sakic then traded Iginla for a (yes conditional) 4th round pick, but he was gone.

I take last years trade deadline as at LEAST a B- on those moves alone. We got younger, faster, more skilled.
 

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Ok, but give him credit for trading Martinsen for Andrighetto. That was a huge win imo.
Sakic then traded Iginla for a (yes conditional) 4th round pick, but he was gone.

I take last years trade deadline as at LEAST a B- on those moves alone. We got younger, faster, more skilled.

True, that was highway robbery at the least. And getting Barberio was huge if for no other reason it allowed them to enter the expansion draft without having to do anything crazy. But I still think this team could have and should have gotten at least ONE extra pick out of the 2017 draft, and didn't.

But yes, I think Sakic is a guy who learns from his mistakes, and I hope he's learned from the ones both he and Roy made very recently.
 
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McMetal

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Given that Beauchemin is the only player that could have been sold last deadline who still has an NHL job, it's clear to me that Sakic had no buyers for what he was selling. GMs didn't want Tyutin, Bourque, and Iginla for free on July 1st, why would they have wanted to give up anything for them at the deadline? It's impossible to know how hard he tried, but clearly nobody would have wanted them anyway even if he had been sitting on his hands (which I doubt).

We never did get that conditional 4th from LA, did we? Never met the conditions so they kept it?
 

Pokecheque

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We never did get that conditional 4th from LA, did we? Never met the conditions so they kept it?

Nope, Sakic retained salary on the deal too. So it was Iggy for literally nothing. But...whatever, not like he did much of anything for the Kings. And I guess the Avs got out of paying him a few thousand, so there's that.
 

tigervixxxen

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Other players who dont have jobs were traded. Basically any inaction can be defended by plausible deniability but the big picture is they had a job and they didn't complete it. It's unacceptable and it needs to change this year.
 
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Pokecheque

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Other players who dont have jobs were traded. Basically any inaction can be defended by plausible deniability but the big picture is they had a job and they didn't complete it. It's unacceptable and it needs to change this year.

A big test will be what ends up happening to Andrew Hammond. If he ends up just letting that guy hit FA with nothing to show, his approval rating will go down considerably in my view.
 

Perratrooper

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A big test will be what ends up happening to Andrew Hammond. If he ends up just letting that guy hit FA with nothing to show, his approval rating will go down considerably in my view.

Meh Hammond isn’t worth much and I’d be more interested to see if he flips Bernier and just calls up Hammond.
 

Pokecheque

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Meh Hammond isn’t worth much and I’d be more interested to see if he flips Bernier and just calls up Hammond.

Either way he’s got an extra goalie he doesn’t even have room for. He can either make room for him or move him. But if he does nothing that’s an epic fail, especially in a year where goalies are dropping like flies.

And I don’t believe he has no value. I’m not expecting some huge haul or anything but even Reto Berra got something of value in return.
 

PAZ

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Either way he’s got an extra goalie he doesn’t even have room for. He can either make room for him or move him. But if he does nothing that’s an epic fail, especially in a year where goalies are dropping like flies.

And I don’t believe he has no value. I’m not expecting some huge haul or anything but even Reto Berra got something of value in return.

Really... you're basing this off a 3rd string goalie who barely has a .900 sv% in the AHL? If anything, that extra 3rd Ottawa gave up was for us to take Hammond off their hands. Hammond isn't a big enough positive or negative asset for Sakic to negotiate more. It's like if a we had a blockbuster lined up and the other team insisted on Warsofsky being a throw-in.

Reto Berra got something because Allaire believed he had huge potential and Burke was a shrewd negotiator who took advantage of Sakic. There is a possibility that a team believes Hammond can return to his 2014-15 miracle run, but more than likely they just see him as a 3rd string goalie. Look at the other goalies teams have given up on this year. Oscar Dansk, Malcolm Subban, Calvin Pickard, etc. There's always a possibility that Hammond is seen as another Reto Berra, but more than likely he's worth a conditional 7th to the rest of the league.
 

Ivan13

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IMHO, the only way to trade him is to take on an equally bad player. He has injury issues, is barely over .9 save percentage in the AHL, and a couple of seasons removed form having a respectable save percentage in either league. He is a definition of an worthless asset in today's NHL. Hell, the Avs value him so much they didn't even bother to get him in their minor league system.
 

Pokecheque

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Really... you're basing this off a 3rd string goalie who barely has a .900 sv% in the AHL? If anything, that extra 3rd Ottawa gave up was for us to take Hammond off their hands. Hammond isn't a big enough positive or negative asset for Sakic to negotiate more. It's like if a we had a blockbuster lined up and the other team insisted on Warsofsky being a throw-in.

Reto Berra got something because Allaire believed he had huge potential and Burke was a shrewd negotiator who took advantage of Sakic. There is a possibility that a team believes Hammond can return to his 2014-15 miracle run, but more than likely they just see him as a 3rd string goalie. Look at the other goalies teams have given up on this year. Oscar Dansk, Malcolm Subban, Calvin Pickard, etc. There's always a possibility that Hammond is seen as another Reto Berra, but more than likely he's worth a conditional 7th to the rest of the league.

I'm not talking about the assets given up to get him--I get the Avs overpaid (and I don't think it was Burke who negotiated that, it was Treliving) it was when Sakic dealt him away for Rocco Grimaldi AFTER he had become a depreciated asset. Say what you will about Grimaldi but he's an ace AHL player, and that's a great asset to have in the organization.

IMHO, the only way to trade him is to take on an equally bad player. He has injury issues, is barely over .9 save percentage in the AHL, and a couple of seasons removed form having a respectable save percentage in either league. He is a definition of an worthless asset in today's NHL. Hell, the Avs value him so much they didn't even bother to get him in their minor league system.

He'd be in San Antonio right now if not for the fact that the affiliate is being shared.

Neither of you are gonna convince me that he has zero or negative value in a season where journeyman goaltender Michael Leighton, sporting a stellar .869 Save % this season in the AHL, was traded for as an insurance policy, and NHL washout Antti Niemi is being passed around the league like a hot potato in goalie pads despite proving multiple times he's no longer remotely NHL-capable. It's not like he's making some insane amount of money either.
 

Freudian

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Seems like most teams that had goalie issues have weathered the storm at this point. Don't expect Hammond to go anywhere.

Only reason he was included in the trade was to save Ottawa a few bucks. Just think of it as Avs eating $750k of Duchene's salary for the next two years.
 

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I'll admit the Duchene deal has done a ton to ease my concerns, and yes, he's purged nearly all of the problem players from last year's disaster. But I still think he completely and utterly dropped the ball at the deadline and that still bothers the hell out of me.

Yes, Sakic's deadline performances have been underwhelming. This year, they have an obvious trade target in Comeau. If the Avs are still near the basement and Sakic doesn't move Comeau, we all probably need to simply accept that Sakic doesn't (know how to) do deadline deals.

Sakic did move a non-NHL player for a fairly nondescript one in the Andrighetto trade last year. Andrighetto isn't useless, but he's really not all that great either. Undoubtedly the better player of the two though.

Looking at the big picture in regards to Sakic's GM performance, I think he's probably right about at his zenith right now.
 

VikingAv

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I'm not talking about the assets given up to get him--I get the Avs overpaid (and I don't think it was Burke who negotiated that, it was Treliving) it was when Sakic dealt him away for Rocco Grimaldi AFTER he had become a depreciated asset. Say what you will about Grimaldi but he's an ace AHL player, and that's a great asset to have in the organization.



He'd be in San Antonio right now if not for the fact that the affiliate is being shared.

Neither of you are gonna convince me that he has zero or negative value in a season where journeyman goaltender Michael Leighton, sporting a stellar .869 Save % this season in the AHL, was traded for as an insurance policy, and NHL washout Antti Niemi is being passed around the league like a hot potato in goalie pads despite proving multiple times he's no longer remotely NHL-capable. It's not like he's making some insane amount of money either.

What did Pitt give for Leighton? Nothing. It was Archibald and a 6th for a 4th plus two contracts on each side. Leighton is an insurance policy alright. In the AHL. Niemi? Just like you said; Passed around. For nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Hammond is at most worth a 7th-rounder. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it ends up being conditional, ie nothing, if he's traded. And right now Hammond's caphit is actually an issue for some teams. We'd have to retain 50%. Also, if he's able to trade Hammond, it shuts the door on a possible Bernier-trade. Throwing a hissyfit because Hammond, the guy Ottawa had to include a 3rd for us to take, isn't traded is plain stupid.

Barberio? Maybe a 6th. Because of the options we have on D, he'd be a realistic trade-option, imo.

Comeau and Bernier? These guys are interesting. Both should be traded, imo. Their worth? I'm guessing a 4th each, maybe a 3rd if somebody's really desperate. If either are not traded, the only valid reason is if they're re-signed. Or by some miracle we're legitimately in the playoffrace, of course.

My take on last year's deadline and the UFA's; They obviously saw the issue with the lockerroom and were willing to pay to give away Iginla. Beauchemin and his contract at the time made him untradeable. Simple as that. Guys like Mitchell, Tyutin, Bourque, Wiercioch, Grigorenko, Goloubef and Gelinas had absolutely zero value. If the Avs had been offered a conditional 7th, again meaning nothing, I feel pretty sure they would have taken it just to be rid of a few of them. At the time I was mad because none of them were traded, but with the season they had as individuals and a team, I understand that other teams wouldn't go near them.

Regarding Sakic's trades, non-trades or signings, it's the moves from the Roykic-era that are the worst; Berra- and Stuart-trades were awful, Iginla and Beauch-signings were worse, even though most of HFAvs were more than ok with the latter two. If the rumored Duchene-trade with Ottawa is true, then that's also a bad non-move, despite him getting an absolute haul for him when he made the trade.

In the long run for this franchise it was a very good thing Sakic wisened up and went in a direction which made Roy leave (yes, I know if Roy had been in charge, the rumored Duchene-trade probably would have gone through). He wanted to build a Kings ala Sutter, the direct opposite way the NHL turned out to go these last years, and a thing as bad as having a Melnyk as an owner is having a Head Coach with an upper management position in addition (Roy/Tippett). Those are two completely different roles and should not be mixed.

If you want it to be your mission to be angry at Sakic, him not being able to squeeze out a 6th- or 7th-rounder at the deadline or trading Hammond for an actual asset isn't a problem, imo. It's keeping around guys like Billington, most of the pro- and amateur scouting staffs. The Avs will have a good opportunity starting next year with the Eagles, but I don't trust them to take advantage of it and start churning out some home-grown talent. I'll believe it when I see it.

Of course the above starts with the actual draft and the results speak for themselves. Outside the top ten it's horrendous. Nothing less. I'll give it to Roy, though; The draft is one place he, by getting the right people in, might have had a positive influence. The disastrous 2014 draft was Pracey's last kick at the can, the 2015 draft which right now looks quite promising was riddled with Q or Q-linked players, while the 2016 draft where Roy had been stripped of his say looks like utter crap after Jost. 2017 is impossible to say for a while. I wonder how much Mesonero had to say with those 2015 picks, because it sure looks to me he has been ignored ever since Roy was out of the picture. '16 and '17 gave us zero Q-players, only the token camp invitees. Another negative thing with Hepple is his goalie-strategy. I don't want to use a 1st-rounder on a goalie, but the whole unknown-second-year-eligible-euro-goalie-in-the-late-rounds isn't any better of a strategy.

To sum up this sho..., uhm, long novel;
- Sakic not being able to trade Hammond or aquiring a couple of 6th/7th-rounders last deadline is a complete non-issue.
- Him keeping guys like Billington, Hepple, pro scouting staff etc around is an issue. A big one at that.
- All in all; He's learned from his earlier mistakes and getting Roy out was a big plus for the long-term health of this organization. I hope he'll also wise up about point #2.
 

Pokecheque

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Archibald's a legit player, nothing more than a speedy grinder but he's still a legit player. In fact I'd argue that Rutherford made a mistake trading him away. I'm not saying he needs to get some miraculous return for a minor league goalie, I'm just saying this GM came out of a season where they finished with 48 points, knowing full well they were completely out of it in December 2016, and didn't garner a single, solitary extra draft pick. That's inexcusable no matter how much good he's done since then. Just because the return is "meh" doesn't mean you don't do it at all. You can make all the long-winded you want, other GMs have faced similar circumstances and still managed to make trades.

But hey, if legit criticism is "a hissyfit" then I guess I throw a lot of fits.
 
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VikingAv

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Archibald's a legit player, nothing more than a speedy grinder but he's still a legit player. In fact I'd argue that Rutherford made a mistake trading him away. I'm not saying he needs to get some miraculous return for a minor league goalie, I'm just saying this GM came out of a season where they finished with 48 points, knowing full well they were completely out of it in December 2016, and didn't garner a single, solitary extra draft pick. That's inexcusable no matter how much good he's done since then. Just because the return is "meh" doesn't mean you don't do it at all. You can make all the long-winded you want, other GMs have faced similar circumstances and still managed to make trades.

But hey, if legit criticism is "a hissyfit" then I guess I throw a lot of fits.

Yes, Archibald is a decent tweener which is the difference between the 6th and the 4th. Leighton was still the insurance policy for the Baby Pens as we see now when Murray went down again and it was De Smith who was called up.

Put yourself in the shoes of the other GM's though; Why would they use anything at all on any of the players we had here last year? Every single one of them were horrible as individuals and as team players. Sakic had to pay to get rid of Iginla and the talk after the trade was that LA/Avs were just doing Iginla a solid. If that's how other GM's viewed Iginla with his standing in the league, how would they view Mitchell, Bourque, Tyutin etc?

It seems like upper management knew how bad the lockerroom was, so I think if they could have gotten a couple of those guys out for some conditional 7th (the condition being impossible), they would have done it just to get rid of some of them. But you need another team actually thinking "we could use this guy as a depth player", and I don't think that situation was there. Other GM's wouldn't touch those players with a ten-foot pole, except BargainBin getting a Claude-kind of player and ridding themselves of someone Julien doesn't like.

It will be very interesting wrt Comeau this deadline, though. Because of his play this year he should have at least some kind of value and he should go unless we're somehow just one-two points back of the playoffs.

I'd also try to trade Bernier (unless they plan on re-signing him) at the deadline and have Hammond as the back-up rest of the season instead of the other way around. Reason being that Bernier should get one of those mid-round picks we're screaming about and Hammond probably wouldn't garner anything.
 
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Pokecheque

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I also like the fact that Sakic isn't allergic to the waiver wire like other GMs. In fact, the pickup of Mark Barberio last season was inspired. I shudder to think of what would have had to happen if Barberio wasn't on the roster prior to the expansion draft.
 
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Piestany88

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Joe was always the most intelligent and respected in hockey, why rid we doubt him , oh yeah Roy
 
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Yeah, no offense but you guys are nitpicking here about the deadline deals. The bigger picture is so much better now and no one is going to bat 1000. If learning how to get things done at the deadline is a skill he needs to learn I have confidence he will learn it. Although I don’t think his MO is centered around squeezing every little drop of asset out of each player and I’d have to assume he’s getting known around the league as a good GM to play for which IMO is more important than a low round pick here or there. There are many different ways to skin a cat.
 
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Sea Eagles

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Yeah, no offense but you guys are nitpicking here about the deadline deals. The bigger picture is so much better now and no one is going to bat 1000. If learning how to get things done at the deadline is a skill he needs to learn I have confidence he will learn it. Although I don’t think his MO is centered around squeezing every little drop of asset out of each player and I’d have to assume he’s getting known around the league as a good GM to play for which IMO is more important than a low round pick here or there. There are many different ways to skin a cat.

Possibly also a reason guys like Kerfoot signed with us?
 
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