Jimmy Howard vs Petr Mrazek (The Long Off-Season Begins)

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The Zetterberg Era

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He is a rookie. He will have bad games. That's why he needs to start now and get more reps. Howard will never deliver when it counts and I have his entire career as evidence. Never been past the two round. He is no savior. He is an average starter in the nhl that's why he couldn't even make the wings until he was like 25

Who is better Henrik Lundqvist or Corey Crawford?

By the way until he was 30 Henrik Lundqvist had never made past the second round...

Goalies don't need to be saviors, they need to be good. We have ample evidence to suggest Jimmy Howard is in fact a good #1 goalie in the NHL.
 

Detroit Sports*

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He doesn't have to be a savior he just has to be good.

Howard's stats are great. To say that he's not great because he hasn't won the cup is ridiculous. You're using extremely faulty logic. Beyond ridiculous.

He isn't great and his "great" stats are for a half of a season. I bet Holland regrets giving him the deal. I remember when he signed it 97.1 callers were pissed. Act like I'm ridiculous all you want he doesn't live up to DRW standards when you say "great" maybe he is great on the leafs. Wings win cups not just reg season games
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Trick question, answer is Stanley Cup champion and Conn Smythe winner Cam Ward. You almost had me, too.

Winner, worth his cap hit, the man is gold when it counts, if only his team could get through the regular season for him to turn into Jonathan Quick every year.:sarcasm::laugh:

OT but it is a goalie thread, where do you come in on what might actually be an interesting goalie controversy in Dallas? I know Kari played well against Florida the other night, but that could get interesting for old Jim Nill and your second favorite team.
 

Detroit Sports*

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Who is better Henrik Lundqvist or Corey Crawford?

By the way until he was 30 Henrik Lundqvist had never made past the second round...

Goalies don't need to be saviors, they need to be good. We have ample evidence to suggest Jimmy Howard is in fact a good #1 goalie in the NHL.

Either one of them would have won a cup on Detroit by now I know that.
 

TatarTangle

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While I certainly believe you, appealing to authority isn't the best way to settle an argument. I'd prefer you give us your insight and outline your opinions, because I'm confident it's interesting and it would help move the discussion in positive directions.
I've done it ad nauseum, it's to the point where it doesn't matter. It falls on deaf ears. Perhaps I'll work on something.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Either one of them would have won a cup on Detroit by now I know that.

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Corey Crawford might have the worst glove hand of any #1 in the league. He was even outplayed by Howard when the Wings almost dumped a vastly superior Hawks squad.

But good to know how far the dislike goes....

Lundqvist I get the argument on though he was a large part of his own teams problem in his exits until he hit 30, you know the age where goalies are apparently lost forever and should be given up on for learning time for others.

I still don't think we have been talented enough to win. Outside of the year where everyone got hurt and Trotz owned Babcock from a coaching standpoint. That team was very good but could never get back on track after the injuries hit.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Corey Crawford might have the worst glove hand of any #1 in the league. He was even outplayed by Howard when the Wings almost dumped a vastly superior Hawks squad.

But good to know how far the dislike goes....

Lundqvist I get the argument on though he was a large part of his own teams problem in his exits until he hit 30, you know the age where goalies are apparently lost forever and should be given up on for learning time for others.

I still don't think we have been talented enough to win. Outside of the year where everyone got hurt and Trotz owned Babcock from a coaching standpoint. That team was very good but could never get back on track after the injuries hit.

Wings had no chance in that series. Nashville that year was pretty much designed to beat Detroit and Trotz outcoached the hell out of Babcock. That was evident when the Preds got rocked in the very next round. They were prepared for Detroit in a big way.
 

Frk It

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Corey Crawford might have the worst glove hand of any #1 in the league. He was even outplayed by Howard when the Wings almost dumped a vastly superior Hawks squad.

Put Howard on either Hawks Cup-winning team, and I believe they still win.
 

Bench

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OT but it is a goalie thread, where do you come in on what might actually be an interesting goalie controversy in Dallas? I know Kari played well against Florida the other night, but that could get interesting for old Jim Nill and your second favorite team.

Kari held that team together for years and he's finally having a down season. It was bound to happen with their porous defense. Certainly Kari hasn't done any favors, but look around the Dallas pipeline, there's nobody better stepping up to help. I think lots of people look at the Stars lineup and go "Oh, they should be good, right? Must be a goalie issue." This ignores a huge piece of the puzzle, which is their blueline is a total train wreck and the forwards have no idea how to defend. It's been that way for years and Kari was a band-aid keeping the numbers from hemorrhaging out of control. Now that he's having a pedestrian year, it's painfully obvious. But Kari has faced the most shots of any goalie in the NHL and it shows. He's overworked and getting little help.

Speaking of, Kari's stats are almost identical to Mrazek's... heh.

Kari may not be perfect, but he's been a stabilizing force for the Stars in years past, and Nill would be wise to stick with him until another option presents itself. They could start doing a goalie swap but they'll end up a revolving door of failed ventures until that team learns to defend.

And I think the same rings true for Jimmy Howard. He's a stabilizing force for the Wings goaltending situation. The free agent market was awful for goalies and every halfway decent goalie is getting signed to deals as big or bigger than Howard regularly. That's why Howard's cap hit is now in the bottom half of starters, as we've discussed.

The idea that Howard, due to his contract, is coasting on job security is simply not true. Remember not long ago Holland was trying to get Nabokov out of Russia? The Wings have always made sure they had options at goal going into the playoffs. Even all-time great Hasek didn't have his job secured, so to think Howard is locked in is forgetting years and years of Ken Holland behavior.
 
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Flowah

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It's like taking medical advice from someone who went on WebMD and got their information as opposed to someone who has practiced it for 25+ years.

It's more like taking advice from someone who went on WebMD and watches doctors all day as opposed to someone who claims to have practiced for 25+ years.

I'm Ken Holland and I say you're wrong. How much do you believe me? Gonna just take my word for it?

Besides, you can't possibly suggest that just because you've played at a high level we should just take your word as gospel. Or are you?
 

Overclass*

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I like Mrazek and have no doubt in my mind he will have supplanted Howard in 2 years, possibly even next year, but as of right now Howard is a better goalie. Mrazek has more high end potential and athleticism but people are too quick to look at his W/L record and have a selective memory. Fact is, he was horribly inconsistent and got bailed out by our offense on more than one occasion.

I don't think Howard is our long term solution and I doubt he will ever lead us to a cup, but I do know he gives us the better chance this year.
 

Bench

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I'm Ken Holland and I say you're wrong.

Who had Flowah in the real Ken Holland pool?!

There's really no reason not to believe anybody, but that's sort of tangential to the idea that authority somehow means you're right, which isn't always the case. A well-thought-out argument is always more provocative and compelling.
 

Frk It

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I don't think Howard is our long term solution and I doubt he will ever lead us to a cup, but I do know he gives us the better chance this year.

I think whether or not we win a Cup has a lot more to do with the team playing in front of the goalie, than the goalie. But that's just my opinion.

If we put a top-notch team in front of him, and execute, I don't doubt Howard would do his part.

But I think the importance of the goalie is often overstated in general, personally. In most cases you could alternate them for a few guys and get the same outcome at the end. Except for things like Tim Thomas going absolute beast mode.
 

Overclass*

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I think whether or not we win a Cup has a lot more to do with the team playing in front of the goalie, than the goalie. But that's just my opinion.

If we put a top-notch team in front of him, and execute, I don't doubt Howard would do his part.

But I think the importance of the goalie is often overstated in general, personally. In most cases you could alternate them for a few guys and get the same outcome at the end. Except for things like Tim Thomas going absolute beast mode.

While I agree a dominant team can make it easy, Howard has just never struck me as a winner. I always viewed him as kind of the Anti-Osgood. Good up until you really need him to be. Would love for him to prove me wrong though
 

ArGarBarGar

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While I agree a dominant team can make it easy, Howard to me has just never struck me as a winner. I always viewed him as kind of the Anti-Osgood. Good up until you really need him to be. Would love for him to prove me wrong though

Playing on inconsistent teams will do that, good or bad.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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While I agree a dominant team can make it easy, Howard to me has just never struck me as a winner. I always viewed him as kind of the Anti-Osgood. Good up until you really need him to be. Would love for him to prove me wrong though

Interesting that you get that vibe, I have a hard time blaming him for lack of success in big games when you look at the picture as a whole.

Looking at post-season play

Last year was just utter domination by the Bruins, can't complain when he had a .931 sv%. Just utterly terrible series.

Previous year was against the Hawks, and again you look and his numbers are great. .924 sv%, and he had a crap defense playing in front of him. He's a big reason we took the eventual Cup champs to 7, and also ousted a high scoring team in round 1.

Year before that we played Nashville, and his numbers were not great, but that team just physically dominated the hell out of us. And Rinne completely owned us on the other side, so would have been a tall task to out-perform one of the top 3 goalies in the league.

So when I look at the last 3 years, I don't really get that vibe. I don't think Jimmy is going to cost you series you should have won, but I also don't think he is going to steal you a series either. I think he will just solidly do his job, and if we execute elsewhere there's no reason we can't have success with him in net.
 

Bench

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Aug 14, 2011
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I think whether or not we win a Cup has a lot more to do with the team playing in front of the goalie, than the goalie. But that's just my opinion.

If we put a top-notch team in front of him, and execute, I don't doubt Howard would do his part.

But I think the importance of the goalie is often overstated in general, personally. In most cases you could alternate them for a few guys and get the same outcome at the end. Except for things like Tim Thomas going absolute beast mode.

I'm not even a massive Howard fan, is the irony here, but I respect the job he's done for the Wings. Like I said previously, he's stable, and that's a huge plus for a team. He never gets too high or too low. He's there and gives you a chance to win most evenings. That's not true for a lot of goalies, so it's not something that's as easily replaced as we like to believe.

But some of you might remember I was also fine with going crazy and trying to bring in Ryan Miller. :naughty:

Howard doesn't stack up with Rinne or Lunqvist most nights, but he's as good as Niemi, Crawford, or Fleury, all winners in the last six Cups.
 

Detroit Sports*

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Corey Crawford might have the worst glove hand of any #1 in the league. He was even outplayed by Howard when the Wings almost dumped a vastly superior Hawks squad.

But good to know how far the dislike goes....

Lundqvist I get the argument on though he was a large part of his own teams problem in his exits until he hit 30, you know the age where goalies are apparently lost forever and should be given up on for learning time for others.

I still don't think we have been talented enough to win. Outside of the year where everyone got hurt and Trotz owned Babcock from a coaching standpoint. That team was very good but could never get back on track after the injuries hit.
Yeah when the series was 3-1 after that Howard collapsed under pressure as usual.
 

TatarTangle

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It's more like taking advice from someone who went on WebMD and watches doctors all day as opposed to someone who claims to have practiced for 25+ years.

I'm Ken Holland and I say you're wrong. How much do you believe me? Gonna just take my word for it?

Besides, you can't possibly suggest that just because you've played at a high level we should just take your word as gospel. Or are you?
:laugh:

My feelings are hurt that you don't believe me. How could you do this to me on Valentine's Day, OF ALL DAYS?!?!?!?!?

Who had Flowah in the real Ken Holland pool?!

There's really no reason not to believe anybody, but that's sort of tangential to the idea that authority somehow means you're right, which isn't always the case. A well-thought-out argument is always more provocative and compelling.
Because it's the internet.

I copypasted this from one of my previous posts but added a couple things. Could delve into it more but don't really feel like it ATM. Don't quite think it's worth my time.

Mrazek is two years away from contending for the starting spot. He needs to work on, at minimum, 5-6 different things and iron them out.

1. Stop using the VH in attempt to make a save from the slot. Do it on the post, and that's it. Part of the reason why he gives up rebounds is because of this. There is absolutely no need to use it other than when you are on your post. And even then goalies are moving to a hybrid move of the VH or the shoulder lean or just using the traditional method. But it's silly, inefficient and leaves yourself vulnerable to use the VH outside of your post.

2. Play deeper in his net. He's big enough where he does not have to challenge shooters to take up more net, top of the circle is suffice. This will also cut down on taking himself out of position and be more in control. He could have prevented the last PP goal last night by doing this. A goalie that has as much talent as he does, is as big as he is, and as quick as he is, should never be out of position. But he constantly is. Why? 50% of this reason and 50% reason number thr....

3. Stop being overly aggressive. Aggressive is good, but not when you end up overplaying it and leave the far side wide open. NHL players will pick you apart bud. But even with that being said I'd rather my goalie give up a far-side goal than a short-side goal. But this also ties into playing deeper in the net. Why give up valuable real estate when you don't have to? That's more area you have to cover in attempt to stop a rebound. It's more work for him. It's more work for the defense. He doesn't take up any more or less net.Nobody wins. Control is the key word here, again.

4. Rebounds. They're atrocious. He's getting by because he's quick.

5. Did I mention rebounds? Now, the ****** part of this is that it's something you can't really teach. I mean, you can, but you can't. Controlling rebounds is more than just throwing them into the corners. Have you ever watched a real good goalie? I'm talking realgud. Do yourself a favor and watch one someday. You'll see something you've never seen a Detroit goalie do. See, what's cool about talented, born to be goalies is that their rebound control comes natural. What do I mean by that?

Well, see, let's say I know a shot is going low, far-side. What's cool about a good goalie, and one of the main reason why his defenseman love him, is that he realizes this and positions his stick in a fashion that once that shot hits his pad........guess what hits the back side of his well-positioned stick? YOU GUESSED IT. The puck. An elite goalie is a black hole. Quite honestly it's the reason why one goalie never makes it very far but another goalie does, despite the former goalie maybe being bigger and better.

6. Be more technical when facing a shot from the point, slot, wherever. The Nose pointed out its strange how he goes about it and he's correct. Petr will try either the VH or some hybrid awkward looking VH / butterfly. Just drop to the damn butterfly. I know his favorite goalie is Hasek but for his own sake don't try to mimic something that isn't mimic-able. There isn't really a reason why Mrazek should be getting beat on an un-screened shot and he went through a strech where that simply wasn't the case.

It's pretty minor stuff and I have no doubt he'll fix it. As it stands he isn't anywhere near as good as Jimmy. Petr has a higher ceiling than Howard had, and I'd wager he has a 80%ish shot of reaching it. He's determined and driven. He's also bat **** crazy. Take it from a bat **** crazy goalie himself, the crazier they are the better they are. They want it a lot more than other guys.

Like I said, could go on and on and on but what the **** do I know? I'm just some scrub :)
 
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odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
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Invite me out to your D league skate bud. What did I say about arm chair goalies? I'd be willing to bet you don't even know what the VH or shoulder lean is

Please understand I'm not attacking you. Nor am I trying to start a argument.

I suffer from the same weakness because I have a very blunt personality.

But when people go all high and mighty usually people who are unfamiliar with whatever specialization just turn mute on and ignore what is said.

This next part is also something I need to adjust as well. Perhaps when you go into detail on stuff you account for people not understanding details and make your comments more access able for non exp'd hockey players. And actually teach the game a bit to the uninitiated.

Just a thought though its up to you to take or leave it.
 
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TatarTangle

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Please understand I'm not attacking you. Nor am I trying to start a argument.

I suffer from the same weakness because I have a very blunt personality.

But when people go all high and mighty usually people who are unfamiliar with whatever specialization just turn mute on and ignore what is said.

This next part is also something I need to adjust as well. Perhaps when you go into detail on stuff you account for people not understanding details and make your comments more access able for non exp'd hockey players. And actually teach the game a bit to the uninitiated.

Just a thought though its up to you to take or leave it.
That is more than fair enough to say, I didn't take that in any wrong way whatsoever. My first post in this thread more or less stemmed from trying to explain, for months, that Howard is the better option than Mrazek in which I've gone into some detail. People have their opinions, and I respect that, but I've played the position for a long time and am very, very good at it. That should hold some weight, doesn't seem to however.

Gotta admit though, when Babcock was talking to Mrazek just before the shootout I was wondering if he was asking him if he was ready to hop in the net :laugh:
 
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