News: Jim Rutherford: Penguins offered "a lot" for Fleury, tried to acquire him in October
- Thread starter Empoleon8771
- Start date
Son Goku
henlo u stinky egg
Dude started doing drugs once he traded a butt load for Ryan f***ing Reaves
SI90
Registered User
Love this behind the scenes stuff. Tell us more Jimmy
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 55,723
- 46,707
Thanks for the 2 Cups, JR, but you probably should have retired after the 2018 season.
Ryan Reaves is a moneypuck player.
He does provide value, but giving up value to get him is not a moneypuck move
He does provide value, but giving up value to get him is not a moneypuck move
Looks like almost all his moves have been dead on since the middle of the 2019 season with the Pettersson for Sprong deal. So don't think his end of his tenure was bad at all.
Moves since that deal:
Pettersson for Sprong +++
McCann and Bjugstad for rentals Brassard and Sheahan 2nd and 4th +
Signing Tanev +++
Trading a 6th for Marino +++++
Trading Kessel for POJ ++++
Trading for Zucker +
Trading for Kapanen +
Matheson for Hornqvist + that is my opinion but I do believe Matheson helps this team much more than Hornqvist would and with a lower cap hit and 9 years younger.
Signing Ceci for $1.25 million +++++
Rodriguez signed for minimum +
Jankowski signed for minimum =
Rutherford's moves is what has kept this team competitive despite the aging core. Why people feel the need to tear the man down after he is gone is beyond me. He is a sure Hall of Famer. The magic he did to turn this team around into back to back Cups is the best GM work I have ever witnessed. I believe his moves since that Pettersson trade have put the team in that same contention as that 2016 group. If this team is healthy come playoffs they have as good as shot as anyone to win the Cup. I would feel better if Rutherford was here because I know he would add another top 6 piece to go for the Cup. I hope Hextall doesn't waste our cores best shot with all 3 playing great now. The future is now. You go all in because you aren't getting a core like this again for decades. Ask the Leafs or Flyers how easy it is to build a Cup champion.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
You conveniently left out that the Penguins are 1-7 in the playoffs in the last 2 years when JR has been making those trades.
Kinda important detail to leave out. It doesn't matter how each of your individual moves looks on paper (and your rankings are hella generous to put it bluntly) if your team is getting clearly worse with your moves.
- Jan 24, 2007
- 7,302
- 7,721
The Matheson trade and JJ signing are really the only moves that come to mind as complete head scratchers to me for JR in Pitt.
CupInSIX
My cap runneth over
Wait, didn't the 'insiders' say Vegas was desperately trying to move MAF but teams wanted them to pay to take him at 50%?
And I could have sworn 99% of HFboards was adamant about Flower being done & no team wanting him. Must be mistaken.
And I could have sworn 99% of HFboards was adamant about Flower being done & no team wanting him. Must be mistaken.
The Duck Knight
Henry, you're our only hope!
Yeah I tried to tell people he was still a top 15 goalie in the offseason. Turns out I sold him short.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
The issue is that JR has seemingly turned a lot of assets into not many assets. He traded a 1st for Reaves, only to throw him away in the Brassard trade. He traded Cole, Reaves, Gustavsson and a 1st for Brassard only for Brassard to suck here, and then he attached more futures on top of Brassard to get McCann (who's been a good 3rd line winger for them) and Bjugstad (who the Penguins had to retain half of his contract to just trade). He traded Kessel for Galchenyuk and POJ, only to basically throw away Galchenyuk as a cap dump 6 months later in the Zucker deal. He turned Hagelin into Pearson into Gudbranson into a 7th, when Hagelin himself had the value of a 3rd. He turned Maatta into Kahun (who I think is super overrated by Penguins fans) into 10 games of Sheary and a non-NHLer in Rodrigues.
The end of his tenure had a ton of self depreciating moves from JR. Each one in a vacuum may have not been "bad", but it was a consistent trend of him grossly mismanaging assets and getting back pennies on the dollars that he paid for players.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I posted this on the Penguins board, but I think the situation with this was probably:
Vegas: offering a high pick with no retention for someone to take Fleury off of their hands
Other teams: wanted multiple high picks plus possibly some retention to take Fleury off of their hands
JR: offered a high pick for Fleury with a lot of retention
I imagine JR offered "a lot" relative to what other teams were offering, but it was still probably not a deal Vegas wanted to make. Getting offered a 2nd while having to retain $3 million of his deal isn't exactly better for Vegas than having to trade 2 1sts to get out of Fleury's deal entirely IMO.
I didn't leave out anything. The GM's job is to add the pieces to compete. That doesn't guarantee success. Look at that dominant Lightning team 2 years ago that lost 4 straight in the first round. It happens to the best built teams. Last year was a farce. With a several month layoff that first round was always going to be a crapshoot. Very hard to be at playoff level with that layoff. As you can see the Pens started off again slow this season with no preseason games.
How I judge these past few seasons is the regular season because that is when the GM has to have the depth to still produce even with injuries. Last year the team had injuries to all their best players including only 3 games all season with both Crosby and Malkin and still finished with the 7th best record in the NHL. That is all on the GM. Most teams would love that finish with a healthy lineup but the Pens did that without Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Rust, Dumoulin, and so many others for many games.
Your biased take is laughable an hating on a man and making this thread after all he has done for the Penguins organization says everything about your character.
Thank you Rutherford for all you have done for the Pens and I wish you the best.
Empoleon you are not worthy of what Rutherford brought to us. Fans like you litter HF and that is why so many leave these boards. You are an ingrate.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
GMs aren't judged based on how great of value they get in trades, they get judged on their results on the ice.
Only does HFBoards evaluate GMs based on what kind of value they get in trades. The real world doesn't work like that. A GM who overpays for a player he wants but wins is infinitely better than a GM who gets great value for players but loses.
[MOD] Every GM does moves that don't work but this team has been very competitive each and every year. Having a few bad 1st round playoff losses does not detract from the teams he built. Last year's format after a long game stoppage I hold no blame. Any team could of lost in that scenario. Even in the normal years the best teams get knocked out. Like I said that Lightning team had the best record in hockey and got swept in the first round. Was that the GM's fault? No, because any team could lose in the playoffs. The best team I ever witnessed lost to the Islanders in 93. Shit happens.
[MOD] He moved down 20 spots in that draft to get Reaves. If it would of really been a 1st for Reaves straight up I would of been with you calling that out. Obviously the Pens didn't see anyone they wanted with that pick that separates themselves from the rest at that position.
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[MOD]
Rutherford literally brought the Crosby/Malkin era from a certain underachiever to the best team of their generation. Pens stagnated for 6 of Crosby and Malkin's prime years under Shero after that 1st Cup. The experts all said the team was done and the time of them being serious Cup contenders was over. Then comes in Rutherford and with only a one year transition made the Pens group surrounding the core from old and slow to young and the fastest team in the league and back to back Cup Champs. This seals the legacy of the Crosby/Malkin era. So yes I will get on my horse to go to bat for that man.
2018 trading for Brassard. Yes it didn't work but that happens all the time and that doesn't mean it was not the right idea. No GM bats 1,000. Brassard was the top trade option that deadline and he was known as one of the best playoff performers "Big Game Brass". Adding him to Center what you hoped would be a good 3rd line was something almost all Pens fans had loved when that trade was made. Cole was hated by coach Sullivan and was a UFA that summer and was never going to be signed by the Pens and certainly not for that $4.5 million a year deal. I could go through the rest of his not well thought out post but it is not worth my time.
Rutherford has had a few misses on signings and trades but far more hits. Anytime you want to debate that I will be glad to. So yes I don't respect any fan that needs to tear down someone after they left the organization and brought so much success. This team now looks really strong thanks to many of his moves.
Rutherford literally brought the Crosby/Malkin era from a certain underachiever to the best team of their generation. Pens stagnated for 6 of Crosby and Malkin's prime years under Shero after that 1st Cup. The experts all said the team was done and the time of them being serious Cup contenders was over. Then comes in Rutherford and with only a one year transition made the Pens group surrounding the core from old and slow to young and the fastest team in the league and back to back Cup Champs. This seals the legacy of the Crosby/Malkin era. So yes I will get on my horse to go to bat for that man.
2018 trading for Brassard. Yes it didn't work but that happens all the time and that doesn't mean it was not the right idea. No GM bats 1,000. Brassard was the top trade option that deadline and he was known as one of the best playoff performers "Big Game Brass". Adding him to Center what you hoped would be a good 3rd line was something almost all Pens fans had loved when that trade was made. Cole was hated by coach Sullivan and was a UFA that summer and was never going to be signed by the Pens and certainly not for that $4.5 million a year deal. I could go through the rest of his not well thought out post but it is not worth my time.
Rutherford has had a few misses on signings and trades but far more hits. Anytime you want to debate that I will be glad to. So yes I don't respect any fan that needs to tear down someone after they left the organization and brought so much success. This team now looks really strong thanks to many of his moves.
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CheckingLineCenter
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2018
- 8,319
- 8,854
Idk. Just happy he resigned. It was time for a more measured approach.
Although it was fun to speculate on trades when JR was in charge, because you knew they were gonna happen.
Although it was fun to speculate on trades when JR was in charge, because you knew they were gonna happen.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 78,811
- 53,473
Is it wrong to suggest Rutherford should have had more in-house intel on Matt Murray vs Marc-Andre Fleury on the eve of expansion? Of course there's the massive age difference but aside from that, window of contention, Fleury did carry a lot of the championship winning work load on that 2017 cup win.
TySmith4Norris
Registered User
- Oct 13, 2020
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- 628
As soon as you start viewing JR as a performance artist it all makes way more sense
TySmith4Norris
Registered User
- Oct 13, 2020
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Hard to really judge that as a mistake because it seemed like they made the right move up until as recently as last year
Missing the 3 peat in 2018 had basically nothing to do with goaltending
Move at the time was clearly more driven by salary cap than anything else
- Jun 13, 2010
- 40,547
- 18,712
I didn't like the trade but it was:
Reaves+2nd for Sundqvist+1st. It dropped the Pens back from 31 to 51 and they took the same player they would have at 31. Sundqvist at the time had 4pts in 28 games for the Pens. They got a player they wanted.
Plenty of trades to question but this one always makes me think that people would prefer to think in memes rather than reality.
The team is getting worse because your core is getting old and you've spent countless years trying to sustain it. Very little coming in by way of draft and development.
Rutherford's trades don't stand out as gigantic losses. They bring in players of moderate value, but Pittsburgh's inconsistency ultimately puts a timeline on how long these acquisitions have before they fall out of favor.
His biggest mistakes haven't stood out yet because the team is still moderately competitive. But giving term to support players isn't going to look particularly attractive when there aren't elite level players to push the offense.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 78,811
- 53,473
That's fair. I'm just generally not a Rutherford fan because he seems to like going back and forth on former players.
Curious what "a lot" from Pittsburgh could look like anyway, as of October 2020.
TySmith4Norris
Registered User
- Oct 13, 2020
- 598
- 628
Pretty much anything would have been too much, but knowing JR I’m assuming that would’ve been a first
Appreciate the cups but for my own health glad the dude is gone
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