Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[NYR]

To add elite talent to the complementary core, he would’ve had to gut the conplementary core.

What’s changed is the organization now has a decent amount of prospects that can form the next group of really good complementary players, has more swings to try to hit on potentially elite players not taken top 2/3 in the draft, and in doing both of those things has added a lot more currency to make future trades for elite talent if it becomes available

I guess I would've rather seen this done piece by piece instead of gutting the whole team.
Upgrade each position as needed..

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I guess I would've rather seen this done piece by piece instead of gutting the whole team.
Upgrade each position as needed..

I don’t think he’s gutted the team per se, they traded guys they didn’t want to pay more money for what they were bringing. I would’ve liked some different things at different points, but I don’t really have a problem with the larger plan

 

[MarkMessyay11]

We are in the JG Thread and he had those players at his disposal.

Instead of supplementing those players and bringing in the right support to compliment them, he blew it up instead.

I have a problem with that.

If the next "Core" doesn't work out, what is he going to do?

Blow it up again?

I mean, they had them at their disposal for a number of years and it was Sather who squandered their primes, not Gorton (except Miller, but there's more blame to go around). Those players contributed mightily to the success of this organization over the last 10 years...they fell just short of their ultimate goal. It happens...7 teams have won the last 12 combined Cups. So 23 other teams, including us, have failed.

And yes, that's usually how it works. You have your core through its prime, and then you restart. Cap-era rebuilding 101. We're not the first team to do it, and surely won't be the last.

And I feel like your argument is failing to tell the entire story. The list of guys that have been moved out all have one thing in common. They're getting older and more expensive. Stepan was 26 and locked into a $6.5 mil contract until age 31. Girardi was 33 and had 3 years left at $5.5 mil. McDonagh's contract was expiring after next season and he's due a MAJOR extension...at the age of 30. Miller is the exception with his age, but the organization probably felt committing $5+ mil per year, to a player they didn't see a future with, wasn't the right move. If we make none of these trades, are you saying that we're still a Cup contender today? I think we're likely stuck in cap hell and mid-round playoff exits for another 4+ seasons.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

I guess I would've rather seen this done piece by piece instead of gutting the whole team.
Upgrade each position as needed..

This is what they tried to do from 2006-2014...band-aid after band-aid. And it worked, to an extent. Could it have resulted in a Cup if some pucks bounce differently, and/or we had a different coach at the helm? Maybe...maybe not. But with this philosophy, you only recycle talent and hope that it comes together for one special season. Teams that have prolonged success in today's game have an initial influx of young talent. And as that young core grows, it's supplemented by veteran additions and more complementary youth, not the other way around. That's how I see it, at least.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

This is what they tried to do from 2006-2014...band-aid after band-aid. And it worked, to an extent. Could it have resulted in a Cup if some pucks bounce differently, and/or we had a different coach at the helm? Maybe...maybe not. But with this philosophy, you only recycle talent and hope that it comes together for one special season. Teams that have prolonged success in today's game have an initial influx of young talent. And as that young core grows, it's supplemented by veteran additions and more complementary youth, not the other way around. That's how I see it, at least.

I see it differently. I think the Rangers drafted really well in the immediate years after the lockout and that led to some really solid depth. The problem, in my opinion, is when the team started getting really good, the general consensus was they were an elite player away from taking it all. That become Sather's obsession. And while the Rangers window was open, he forked over that depth and the assets that could've led to future depth in search of that missing player. Nash, Yandle, St. Louis....and so it goes. Essentially, they did what you are imploring above and it didn't work out.

The franchise is at point right now where they don't even need to worry about this. The focus right now should be acquiring as many assets as possible and having them evolve to the best of their abilities. The best way to get lucky at the draft is to ensure you have plenty of picks. Maybe they'll get lucky and an elite player or two will grow out of this process. But if one doesn't, I hope the team stays the course and doesn't start throwing away assets in search of another mercenary.

 

[NYR]

I mean, they had them at their disposal for a number of years and it was Sather who squandered their primes, not Gorton (except Miller, but there's more blame to go around). Those players contributed mightily to the success of this organization over the last 10 years...they fell just short of their ultimate goal. It happens...7 teams have won the last 12 combined Cups. So 23 other teams, including us, have failed.

And yes, that's usually how it works. You have your core through its prime, and then you restart. Cap-era rebuilding 101. We're not the first team to do it, and surely won't be the last.

And I feel like your argument is failing to tell the entire story. The list of guys that have been moved out all have one thing in common. They're getting older and more expensive. Stepan was 26 and locked into a $6.5 mil contract until age 31. Girardi was 33 and had 3 years left at $5.5 mil. McDonagh's contract was expiring after next season and he's due a MAJOR extension...at the age of 30. Miller is the exception with his age, but the organization probably felt committing $5+ mil per year, to a player they didn't see a future with, wasn't the right move. If we make none of these trades, are you saying that we're still a Cup contender today? I think we're likely stuck in cap hell and mid-round playoff exits for another 4+ seasons.

Again..All good points but I see things a little differently.
I don’t think the route in which JG took to turning over this roster is a very smart one.

First and foremost, a coaching change was in order and instead he let AV run this team into the ground for far too long.

That said..When a team is that close to winning a cup you don’t just blow it up lol.

If a particular player is no longer in favor for whatever reason, be it age, contract, declining, not a fit for the system, etc, then replace said player with a younger, more capable player and on that note, if you look at a good majority of the players that were traded, most have had some level of success not only here but on their new teams as well.
Can you say the same for the players that came in as replacements?
I sure wouldn’t.
They don’t even fit the type of style he wants to play.

These are the things your GM needs to recognize in advance and that’s the way it’s always been done by any smart GM since the beginning of time.

You need to transition your core from an older expiring one into a younger one over time, not just drop a bomb on the whole thing.

Anyway I’m not going to get too on board the JG hate train just yet unless he screws up this draft.

This draft is going to define this teams future and his career.

This is what they tried to do from 2006-2014...band-aid after band-aid. And it worked, to an extent. Could it have resulted in a Cup if some pucks bounce differently, and/or we had a different coach at the helm? Maybe...maybe not. But with this philosophy, you only recycle talent and hope that it comes together for one special season. Teams that have prolonged success in today's game have an initial influx of young talent. And as that young core grows, it's supplemented by veteran additions and more complementary youth, not the other way around. That's how I see it, at least.

Speaking of band aids, a little prediction..

I'd be willing to bet JG goes full on mental and throws out stupid money at UFAs this year.
All starting with a 35 year old player that hasn't been in the league for years.

This guys a mess..

 

[haveandare]

Again..All good points but I see things a little differently.
I don’t think the route in which JG took to turning over this roster is a very smart one.

First and foremost, a coaching change was in order and instead he let AV run this team into the ground for far too long.

That said..When a team is that close to winning a cup you don’t just blow it up lol.

If a particular player is no longer in favor for whatever reason, be it age, contract, declining, not a fit for the system, etc, then replace said player with a younger, more capable player and on that note, if you look at a good majority of the players that were traded, most have had some level of success not only here but on their new teams as well.
Can you say the same for the players that came in as replacements?
I sure wouldn’t.
They don’t even fit the type of style he wants to play.

These are the things your GM needs to recognize in advance and that’s the way it’s always been done by any smart GM since the beginning of time.

You need to transition your core from an older expiring one into a younger one over time, not just drop a bomb on the whole thing.

Anyway I’m not going to get too on board the JG hate train just yet unless he screws up this draft.

This draft is going to define this teams future and his career.



Speaking of band aids, a little prediction..

I'd be willing to bet JG goes full on mental and throws out stupid money at UFAs this year.
All starting with a 35 year old player that hasn't been in the league for years.

This guys a mess..

You seem to already have made up your mind about him.

 

[RangerBlues]

The team is not gutted. You have the assets to get two to four top fifty picks for the next two to three seasons.
And cap space. That can be sold, twisted and contorted.
Unlike other franchises. The Rangers are not cheap, pathetic or broke.

 

[Riche16]

It’s like he’s damned for not blowing it up more and or sooner while also not keeping the core together longer.

The team as constructed a couple months (or years) ago wasn’t getting it done. End of story... nuff said.

Coach yes to blame.
Team, players yes.
Management yes.

What should we do just fold up the NYR and burn down msg and start over as the NY TRAFFIC JAM????

Let the man do his job. Jesus. He’s just getting started. The rebuildool has BARELY begun

 

[wafflepadsave]

After watching a few rounds of these playoffs, I have a few observations:
1) not all teams have copious amounts of elite such as Nashville, Boston, Minnesota. That tells me there are other models/forms of teams that work. Felt like those teams very little, if any, dead weight. Bos & Nash has quite a few players with a great deal of tenacity in common.
2) Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa & Winnipeg are loaded with talent. Wash & Pitt was a back and forth display of high end talent doing things that most Rangers are in capable of.
3) All of those teams displayed toughness, not fighting, but hitting, being hit and not intimidated, and driving to the net that I rarely see from the current Rangers line up. I was a bit shocked at Colorado ‘s tenacity during the 1st round of the playoffs .

In summary, it could be hypothicised that the teams that are out now need maybe one more good but not necessarily elite player to move forward. Nashville was on the down side of their performance run during the regular season and couldn’t get back into a good rythym . Would be nice for the Rangers to get 2 really awesome players intgsed next two drafts but incorporate them with with just good, tenacious players complimenting.

So I am ok with Gorton drafting at 9 oa and collecting as many guys this year as I am trading for Svechnikov and having less. Seems to be a few different ways to attack this monster. Probably more excited this year more than ever because there seems to be some sort of a plan for once. Thanks

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

After watching a few rounds of these playoffs, I have a few observations:
1) not all teams have copious amounts of elite such as Nashville, Boston, Minnesota. That tells me there are other models/forms of teams that work. Felt like those teams very little, if any, dead weight. Bos & Nash has quite a few players with a great deal of tenacity in common.
2) Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa & Winnipeg are loaded with talent. Wash & Pitt was a back and forth display of high end talent doing things that most Rangers are in capable of.
3) All of those teams displayed toughness, not fighting, but hitting, being hit and not intimidated, and driving to the net that I rarely see from the current Rangers line up. I was a bit shocked at Colorado ‘s tenacity during the 1st round of the playoffs .

In summary, it could be hypothicised that the teams that are out now need maybe one more good but not necessarily elite player to move forward. Nashville was on the down side of their performance run during the regular season and couldn’t get back into a good rythym . Would be nice for the Rangers to get 2 really awesome players intgsed next two drafts but incorporate them with with just good, tenacious players complimenting.

So I am ok with Gorton drafting at 9 oa and collecting as many guys this year as I am trading for Svechnikov and having less. Seems to be a few different ways to attack this monster. Probably more excited this year more than ever because there seems to be some sort of a plan for once. Thanks

Honestly, it baffles me how you can do all this analysis and NOT see how having at least one, and preferably more than one, elite skaters is vital to success.

Look at all your teams in point 1. Where are they? This ain't horseshoes; almost don't count. Shoot, the Rangers were one of those teams for a good 5-6 years.

Look at all your teams in point 2. Where are they? With only four teams remaining, 3 of the 4 are still in the POs – and the one that's out won the SC the last two years.

The two methods of team building are not equivalent. Go get me some star players.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Honestly, it baffles me how you can do all this analysis and NOT see how having at least one, and preferably more than one, elite skaters is vital to success.

Look at all your teams in point 1. Where are they? This ain't horseshoes; almost don't count. Shoot, the Rangers were one of those teams for a good 5-6 years.

Look at all your teams in point 2. Where are they? With only four teams remaining, 3 of the 4 are still in the POs – and the one that's out won the SC the last two years.

The two methods of team building are not equivalent. Go get me some star players.

It baffles me that you can’t read. I am ok with either route. I personally would love to have Svechnikov because we’ haven’t had that kind of talent in like forever. But I also see that Boston has Pasternak who is arguably elite and the rest are just good . Washington and Pittsburgh just hung out on the bottom and received generationtalents. Rangers aren’t doing that. Tampa, got a good gm who drafts well and the organization developes their kids well. Jury still out on Rangers their.

 

[NYR]

Listen..You guys can come up with with any scenario you want.

I just don't trust JG enough to do the job he says he's going to do but that's just my opinion.
#NotAFan!

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Listen..You guys can come up with with any scenario you want.

I just don't trust JG enough to do the job he says he's going to do but that's just my opinion.
#NotAFan!

As of right this moment, he has my trust because he's the first Ranger GM in my lifetime that didn't succumb to the bogus narrative that all the team needs is a few band-aids to be competitive again. We'll see what happens with the rebuild plan, which is in it's infancy.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

For all the people lamenting about how we don't have star player(s), this is akin to complaining about the chandelier when a house's foundation isn't even built yet.

 

[Irishguy42]

For all the people lamenting about how we don't have star player(s), this is akin to complaining about the chandelier when a house's foundation isn't even built yet.

For a lot of people, star players are the foundation you build the house upon.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

For a lot of people, star players are the foundation you build the house upon.

That's a wonderful dream, but the Rangers are in a situation where, if they do happen to acquire a future star, they'd be years away from knowing it. The focus at this point in time should be depth, depth, and more depth.

 

[True Blue]

That's a wonderful dream, but the Rangers are in a situation where, if they do happen to acquire a future star, they'd be years away from knowing it. The focus at this point in time should be depth, depth, and more depth.

Gotta agree. The accumulation of as many assets as possible should be the priority. The more darts that you have to throw at the board, the more of a chance of a bulls-eye.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

I see it differently. I think the Rangers drafted really well in the immediate years after the lockout and that led to some really solid depth. The problem, in my opinion, is when the team started getting really good, the general consensus was they were an elite player away from taking it all. That become Sather's obsession. And while the Rangers window was open, he forked over that depth and the assets that could've led to future depth in search of that missing player. Nash, Yandle, St. Louis....and so it goes. Essentially, they did what you are imploring above and it didn't work out.

The franchise is at point right now where they don't even need to worry about this. The focus right now should be acquiring as many assets as possible and having them evolve to the best of their abilities. The best way to get lucky at the draft is to ensure you have plenty of picks. Maybe they'll get lucky and an elite player or two will grow out of this process. But if one doesn't, I hope the team stays the course and doesn't start throwing away assets in search of another mercenary.

Well yeah, I didn't mean to discredit the organization's drafting from the previous 6-8 years or so...it has been very good and I have faith in them to continue to draft and develop the right prospects. I just meant they have previouslytried to patch the lack of top-end talent with outside sources (like you said). And I think that caused a continuous cycle of being not good enough to win, but too good to find the missing piece(s) in the draft.

And my argument against the point of piecing this rebuild together, rather than go all-in and dismantle the core now, is exactly that. It would likely leave us floating in mediocrity...a level below where we need to be to truly compete again, and a level above where we need to be to add the missing talent we've so desperately needed. It's certainly not a sure-fire approach to rid the team of its current core, but it is certainly a different and refreshing approach to what we've previously done.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

Again..All good points but I see things a little differently.
I don’t think the route in which JG took to turning over this roster is a very smart one.

First and foremost, a coaching change was in order and instead he let AV run this team into the ground for far too long.

Agreed that it was time for a change, but AV hardly "ran this team into the ground" outside of this season. We can disagree with his roster decisions and strategies all we want, but he had the most success of any Rangers coach since 1994.

That said..When a team is that close to winning a cup you don’t just blow it up lol.

Which is it? Team was run into the ground or a Cup contender? Either way, they weren't even close to winning a Cup. You can say whatever you want, but there's absolutely no way this team, even with Stepan, Girardi, McD, Miller, etc. is competing with Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa (without McD, G, Miller), Winnipeg, Nashville, Vegas...

If a particular player is no longer in favor for whatever reason, be it age, contract, declining, not a fit for the system, etc, then replace said player with a younger, more capable player and on that note, if you look at a good majority of the players that were traded, most have had some level of success not only here but on their new teams as well.
Can you say the same for the players that came in as replacements?
I sure wouldn’t.
They don’t even fit the type of style he wants to play.

These are the things your GM needs to recognize in advance and that’s the way it’s always been done by any smart GM since the beginning of time.

You need to transition your core from an older expiring one into a younger one over time, not just drop a bomb on the whole thing.

Anyway I’m not going to get too on board the JG hate train just yet unless he screws up this draft.

This draft is going to define this teams future and his career.



Speaking of band aids, a little prediction..

I'd be willing to bet JG goes full on mental and throws out stupid money at UFAs this year.
All starting with a 35 year old player that hasn't been in the league for years.

This guys a mess..

Too many contradictory points here to follow...

I'll just say that I totally disagree with the approach of slowly transitioning your team from older players to younger ones...there's too many opportunities for failure. I said it in my previous post, but it just seems like a recipe for floating between the 5th-10th seed in the conference any given year. Maybe one year you get lucky and put it together and finish in the top 3, or one year it all goes wrong and you bottom out. But the odds of building a truly successful and competitive core in a slow, methodical rebuild, are very low.

 

[NYR]

I DON'T think the route in which JG took to turning over this roster is a very smart one.

@MarkMessyay11
I rarely mince words on here and there's really not much contradictory.
I can go on and on why I dislike how this team has been handled but I think we should wait until after the draft and UFA to reconvene.
Agree to disagree for now

 

[RangerBoy]

Jeff Gorton can look to his hometown Boston Celtics and how Danny Ainge has built a championship level team for the 2nd time in the last ten years. Boston is on the cusp of winning another NBA title within the next few years. Health permitting.

Essentially, Boston has maneuvered with three goals in mind: (1) Bring back future draft picks; (2) create salary cap flexibility in future seasons; and (3) open increased opportunities for the younger players who now comprise the base of this rebuilding project.

One green paperclip: C's rebuilding plan

Gorton has acquired future draft picks. Keep acquiring draft picks. No stupid contracts. Give your young players opportunity to grow and become the next core group of the Rangers.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Jeff Gorton can look to his hometown Boston Celtics and how Danny Ainge has built a championship level team for the 2nd time in the last ten years. Boston is on the cusp of winning another NBA title within the next few years. Health permitting.



One green paperclip: C's rebuilding plan

Gorton has acquired future draft picks. Keep acquiring draft picks. No stupid contracts. Give your young players opportunity to grow and become the next core group of the Rangers.

Can't really compare the NBA to the NHL, with the luxury tax, the smaller teams etc. But hey, Gorton doesn't have to look anywhere to know how to build a contender. He already did that in Boston.

 

[RangerBoy]

Can't really compare the NBA to the NHL, with the luxury tax, the smaller teams etc. But hey, Gorton doesn't have to look anywhere to know how to build a contender. He already did that in Boston.

I am talking the philosophy of team building. Ainge acquired so many young assets. When LeBron went back to the Cavs,they had to move money. Ainge took on money in exchange for the Cavs pick in 2016. Ainge traded that pick to the Suns for an underused player named Isiah Thomas who became a star in Boston. Ainge flipped Thomas to the Cavs for Irving. Ainge used the Celtics cap space to acquire an extra 1st.

Gorton made these comments

“If we’re in that range, we’re going to take the guy we feel will eventually be the best player, not necessarily the player who might be the most ready to contribute next year,” Gorton said. “And it won’t be a position-specific pick.

“We’re looking for assets, looking for the best players. I’m not a believer in picking by position. I don’t remember ever picking by position.”

https://nypost.com/2018/04/28/rangers-gm-knows-what-high-draft-pick-would-mean-for-team/

Ainge acquired so many draft picks that it gave him flexibility. Some players he kept. Some players he traded away for better players. Ainge did a brilliant job in building that team. He is the best exec in any of the four major leagues in North America. There are some ideas Gorton seems to be using in building the Rangers.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I am talking the philosophy of team building. Ainge acquired so many young assets. When LeBron went back to the Cavs,they had to move money. Ainge took on money in exchange for the Cavs pick in 2016. Ainge traded that pick to the Suns for an underused player named Isiah Thomas who became a star in Boston. Ainge flipped Thomas to the Cavs for Irving. Ainge used the Celtics cap space to acquire an extra 1st.

Gorton made these comments



https://nypost.com/2018/04/28/rangers-gm-knows-what-high-draft-pick-would-mean-for-team/

Ainge acquired so many draft picks that it gave him flexibility. Some players he kept. Some players he traded away for better players. Ainge did a brilliant job in building that team. He is the best exec in any of the four major leagues in North America. There are some ideas Gorton seems to be using in building the Rangers.

Ainge also was the beneficiary of the most lopsided trade in NBA history. I’m cool with Gorton following a similar blueprint, but let’s not forget how much easier Billy King made Ainge’s job. No one is doing that in the NHL