Injury Report: Jason Zucker likely out for the season

grN1g

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You obviously have a lot more faith in Zucker's progression than I do.

I do, i have no problem admitting it. I have as much faith as i did in Granlund.

Zucker has hardly been givin a chance compared to Nino and Coyle, Thats because mainly their big body wingers, but also, they're big assets that this franchise traded for... If Heatley was not in this line up would you say Haula/Fontain would be given a better shot than Zucker from the get go? I don't personally believe so.. but i guess with Yeo, you can never know.
 

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I do, i have no problem admitting it. I have as much faith as i did in Granlund.

Zucker has hardly been givin a chance compared to Nino and Coyle, Thats because mainly their big body wingers, but also, they're big assets that this franchise traded for... If Heatley was not in this line up would you say Haula/Fontain would be given a better shot than Zucker from the get go? I don't personally believe so.. but i guess with Yeo, you can never know.

Granlund has a hockey IQ that Zucker could only dream of. I can't have the same faith in progression as a result.

As for Haula/Fontaine... based on what I have seen with my own two eyes... those two are clearly more NHL ready than I have ever seen with Zucker.

I agree that Coyle has been given more responsibility than he has ever earned on the ice... but he is still more NHL ready than Zucker... Nino is the 3rd best kid on the team but doesn't get the free pass that Coyle has been given.

I don't hate Zucker... I just think the numbers game is working against him. He's still got too far to develop for this team, and thus someone like Vanek is going to squeeze him out from in front, and then he will soon have guys like Lucia breathing down his back before long, thus is more likely to be traded than to get a regular spot in the lineup with the Wild.

We all knew there was never going to be room for all the kids. That just isn't possible. Larsson got squeezed out, looks like Zucker is next. (for the record, I was as high on Larsson as you are on Zucker... but could see that Pominville was a great pickup and is a better asset right NOW than Larsson is, just as Vanek is over Zucker)
 

grN1g

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Also wanna point out that Vanek is an established player yes, however is he more likely to be the two-way threat player that Yeo wants everyone to be?

or is a young non established player who badly wants to make his dream come true with THIS team, and will do anything that the coaches ask of him more likely to become that?

I saw major improvement on Zuck's back checking after his 1st demotion, his positioning needs work still, but he was utilizing his best asset(speed) to be more of a threat for the apposing break out in my opinon. Something thats not been said about Vanek in any recent memory of mine, combine that with his lack luster/almost not even trying olympics + his whole debacle this year just seems less and less appealing.
 

TaLoN

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What was Vanek's whole "debacle" this year that you speak of? Snow's mismanagement of the Islanders? Vanek's season has hardly been a debacle this year.
 

thestonedkoala

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Remove Heatley... add Vanek... Haula gets the 3rd line center spot, Coyle on wing along with Nino...

Zucker doesn't fit.

Depends on the contract Vanek wants. If Vanek wants what the Isles offered him, forget it. If he wants something in the ballpark of 5 years, 35 million, that's fine. If he wants 7 years and between 35-42 million, that's fine. If he wants 3 years and 24 million, that's fine. But 7 years and around 50 million? I'd pass and look for cheaper options.
 

grN1g

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What was Vanek's whole "debacle" this year that you speak of? Snow's mismanagement of the Islanders? Vanek's season has hardly been a debacle this year.

I just used that word to describe all the crazyness thats been going on this year for him personally. Non of which is his fault, nor do i think this year would any way affect him as a player, i just don't see the short term/long term value of Vanek at this point over Zucker with what this franchise has to work with.

short term, he pots a few more goals, which maybe gets us pass 1st, maybe even 2nd round, but do i believe his more than likely pricey contract w/ uncertain contribution really push us to win it all? I don't personally believe so.

long term, i see an aging scorer who can't pot goals on the wild just like alot of others before him, with a gross contract when looking at his point totals on this team thats hard to move and hurts us in a big way in the cap world.
 

TaLoN

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I just used that word to describe all the crazyness thats been going on this year for him personally. Non of which is his fault, nor do i think this year would any way affect him as a player, i just don't see the short term/long term value of Vanek at this point over Zucker with what this franchise has to work with.
You don't see the short term/long term value of a proven elite sniper who has never failed to score 25 goals or more in a full NHL season vs a kid who has yet to even prove he can hold an NHL roster spot?

Sorry, you and I don't see even remotely eye to eye on this subject then and will have to agree to disagree.

IMO adding Vanek turns this team into a cup contender. Zucker does not do that at this point, and may never do that for a team for all we know.
 

thestonedkoala

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You don't see the short term/long term value of a proven elite sniper who has never failed to score 25 goals or more in a full NHL season vs a kid who has yet to even prove he can hold an NHL roster spot?

Sorry, you and I don't see even remotely eye to eye on this subject then and will have to agree to disagree.

Before Heatley joined the Wild, he was a consistent 25+ goal scorer (except the one year he was 'injured'). At the same age at Vanek, Heatley hit 24 and has been on the decline since then.

The Wild are notorious for making goal scorers dry up.
 

grN1g

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Before Heatley joined the Wild, he was a consistent 25+ goal scorer (except the one year he was 'injured'). At the same age at Vanek, Heatley hit 24 and has been on the decline since then.

The Wild are notorious for making goal scorers dry up
.

Really my one true concern for Vanek coming here at this point.

I value Zuckers determination to become an NHL'r with his set of tools, over Vanek at this point. This is just me personally tho, im no wizard hockey fan who can predict the future.
 

thestonedkoala

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Really my one true concern for Vanek coming here at this point.

I value Zuckers determination to become an NHL'r with his set of tools, over Vanek at this point. This is just me personally tho, im no wizard hockey fan who can predict the future.

I'd like Minnesota to actually develop a goal scorer instead of bringing one in. Half the time it doesn't work out. (Hello Havlat, Heatley, Kobasew - who else have we brought in?)
 

grN1g

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I'd like Minnesota to actually develop a goal scorer instead of bringing one in. Half the time it doesn't work out. (Hello Havlat, Heatley, Kobasew - who else have we brought in?)

Sometimes it's hard for me to agree with you TSK. In fact, up until recently i've wanted to type up paragraph after paragraph on this very topic on how your wrong in the recent past, but i think this is one im willing to side on you with now, and willing to admit i was wrong if it turns out that way.
 

thestonedkoala

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Sometimes it's hard for me to agree with you TSK, infact, up until recently i've wanted to type up paragraph after paragraph on this very topic on how your wrong in the recent past, but i think this is one im willing to side on you with now, and willing to admit i was wrong if it turns out that way.

Most of the time I'm right though ;) I'd say about 80-90% of the time. Just takes a while because things don't happen linear or they fall into a pattern most people don't see. Sometimes there is an outlier though.

I do find it funny though that we're complaining about goal scoring in this thread and yet in other threads, people are fine with being the 28th or 30th team in terms of goals. Or that goals aren't all that there is to offense. We are lacking a lot of facilitators and while not lacking skill, I think we lack chemistry. We have all these blocks but they don't fit with one another. I think we finally assembled a good first line but the others are a WIP.
 

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Before Heatley joined the Wild, he was a consistent 25+ goal scorer (except the one year he was 'injured'). At the same age at Vanek, Heatley hit 24 and has been on the decline since then.

The Wild are notorious for making goal scorers dry up.

Heatley was on a clear downward trend long before the Wild traded for him. Also, he was aquired due to his shorter deal, not because of his goal scoring.

Vanek is on no such downward trend.

As for the Wild being notorious for drying up goal scorers... why is it then Gaborik scored his career high in Minnesota... Rolston his career high in Minnesota, Pominville maintaining his typical goal scoring pace... Parise maintaining his pace...

I don't see this so called "drying up" of goal scorers.
 

TaLoN

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I'd like Minnesota to actually develop a goal scorer instead of bringing one in. Half the time it doesn't work out. (Hello Havlat, Heatley, Kobasew - who else have we brought in?)
Havlat was always known as a playmaker more than a scorer. Healtey was brough in because of his year shorter deal than Havlat's, Kobasew was never considered a goal scorer!

Goal scorers that the Wild brought in.... Rolston, Parise, Pominville... all worked out just fine.
 

grN1g

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Your overlooking the years without the PPG line, without that line right now... we lack major chemistry as TSK just pointed out. Is that because of the coach? players? i can't say for certain, but i can say for certain is i do not believe Vanek is the answer to said problem.

Is Zucker? idk but as i said before, he has no risk with him.
 

grN1g

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If Vanek is truthfully set on on coming here do you really believe his 5+ year deal wont have a clause of some sort that will make moving him from the 1 team he wants to be with extremely difficult if he does not pan out? thats a tough pill to swallow if it turns out he's not what we hoped for.
 

TaLoN

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Your overlooking the years without the PPG line, without that line right now... we lack major chemistry as TSK just pointed out. Is that because of the coach? players? i can't say for certain, but i can say for certain is i do not believe Vanek is the answer to said problem.

Is Zucker? idk but as i said before, he has no risk with him.

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I am even talking about in the first place.

Parise with and without the PPG line is a successful goal scorer.

Pominville has been successful without the PPG line as well... in fact he was the player that got us into the playoffs last year down the stretch.

Chemistry etc is a bigger issue, but one that comes with time etc. Zucker has never had any in the NHL with anyone, so not sure how that is even an issue in a Vanek vs Zucker conversation.

Vanek with or without chemistry will still score 25+ goals if healthy guaranteed. He creates his own offense if need be, always has.
 

grN1g

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How is it not contributing to what your talking about?

you bring up the fact that Parise & Pominville were putting up their usual numbers while not playing with Granlund, which is completely false. Has been proven time and time again in many different games.

Chemistry is certainly a meaningful contribution to this current topic me, you, and TSK are all discussing imo.
 

TaLoN

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How is it not contributing to what your talking about?

you bring up the fact that Parise & Pominville were putting up their usual numbers while not playing with Granlund, which is completely false. Has been proven time and time again in many different games.

Chemistry is certainly a meaningful contribution to this current topic me, you, and TSK are all discussing imo.

Uhhh... the PPG line has only been together since late January. Parise was still putting up his typical goal scoring pace his entire time in a Wild uniform.

Pominville has been all over the lineup with and without Granlund... and at the end of last season when he was scoring those goals that got us to the playoffs, Granlund wasn't even in uniform.

Yes... both players without the PPG line have had their typical pace. The PPG line as since elevated that pace for what... a total of 14 games +1 period in the Colorado game?

Sorry, you can't give the PPG line any credit to their full season pace, since it was fine for those two prior... and only recently have elevated their games. 14 games total for that line... that's all. Only 5 of Pominville's 26 goals have come on the PPG line. Only 7 of Parise's 23 goals.

Both have put up "typical" goal scoring without the PPG line.

My point remains. The Wild do not "dry up" goal scorers.

EDIT: The problem isn't the proven scorers on this team... Parise and Pominville have done their job all season long. The problem is, this team relies TOO MUCH on unproven scorers to do the rest of the work.

After Parise and Pominville, the next highest scorer is Fontaine, then Nino and Heater (who's career is done and we all know it) followed by Cooke - who's never been a big scorer but still got his 10 goals we at least expected.

26 for Poms, 23 for Parise, 13 for Fontaine, 12 for both Nino and Heater and 10 for Cooke.

That's why this team needs a proven elite sniper like Vanek.
 
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grN1g

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Parise would not have passed 60 pts last year...

Pominville put up points because of cullen and zucker's speed and CHEMISTRY those 10 games.

Both have showed little to no chemistry without granlund, and both would be scoring less without him imo. If there is any chemistry found when that line is not together, it quickly dries up. Unfortunately our spot in standing's don't allow for alot of mixing and matching to prove your theory when every point matters.
 
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TaLoN

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Parise would not have passed 60 pts last year...

Pominville put up points because cullen and zucker's speed and CHEMISTRY those 10 games.

Both have showed little to no chemistry without granlund, and both would be scoring less without him imo. If there is any chemistry found when that line is not together, it quickly dries up or our spot in standing's don't allow for alot of mixing and matching when every point matters.

Really? Zucker and his 0pts down the stretch is why Pominville got it done?

As for Parise... may not have been on a 60pt pace, but he was on pace for 30 goals, which when talking about goal scoring seems scoring goals wasn't an issue was it?

I still stand by my statement... the Wild do not "dry up" goal scorers.
 

thestonedkoala

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Heatley was on a clear downward trend long before the Wild traded for him. Also, he was aquired due to his shorter deal, not because of his goal scoring.

Fletcher says otherwise;

Listening to Minnesota Wild GM Chuck Fletcher at the 2011 NHL draft, one could hear the seeds of the Dany Heatley trade taking root. Maybe not for the player himself, but for a player with his offensive skills.

"I believe we were the worst shooting team in the league last year," he said at the draft. "We didn't shoot the puck a whole bunch, and when we did shoot it, we didn't shoot it particularly well."

"He's still one of the better scorers in the league," said Fletcher during a media call on Monday. "I think his track record speaks for itself. He's a proven goal-scorer, and a player we expect to score goals for us next year and going forward."
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/pu...a-Wild-traded-for-Dany-Heatley?urn=nhl-wp8593

Why make the trade?
"For us to compete and do a better job next year we felt we needed to score more goals. Certainly this trade, acquiring certainly one of the better goal scorers in the NHL today in Dany Heatley, on the heels of acquiring Devin Setoguchi at the draft, we feel we've added some goal scorers, some players that shoot the puck, and hopefully will mesh well with some of the other players that we have on our roster."
http://wild.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=568444

So, unless GMCF is lying, we traded for Heatley because he was a goal scorer.

While Heatley was on a downward trend, he dropped off considerably from being a 25+ goal scorer (which he was showing) to a 10+ goal scorer.

Vanek is on no such downward trend.

Actually Vanek hasn't hit 40 goals in a while and is currently hovering around where Heatley was. He had 32 goals in 2010-2011, 26 goals in 2011-2012, and so far 25 goals this season. He should pot some more but it's a far cry from the 43 and 40 goals he scored a few years ago. Similar to Heatley.

As for the Wild being notorious for drying up goal scorers... why is it then Gaborik scored his career high in Minnesota... Rolston his career high in Minnesota, Pominville maintaining his typical goal scoring pace... Parise maintaining his pace...

Gaborik played with different players and was a totally different team. Gaborik also scored career high of 42 goals (in one less game) in New York and had 41 goals in 82. He also had his career high in points in New York.

Rolston had 3 more goals but again, different teams, different players and he had a great facilitator in Bouchard, who I see somewhat in Granlund. AGAIN though different team.

Pominville is certainly doing well and he's on pace for a typical year in goal scoring but points, he's below average.

Parise isn't scoring at his normal and typical rate. He's usually above 30 goals. He's actually slightly below average (if he gets there).

With that said;

Eric Belanger (less goals on average in Minnesota)
Andrew Brunette (had his career year in Colorado and average more points)
Martin Havlat (below average)
Chuck Kobasew
Matt Cullen (below average in goals and points)
Eric Nystrom (below average in goals and points)
Tom Gilbert (below average in goals and points)
Darroll Powe (below average in goals and points)
Devin Setoguchi (could never get his spark back here but below average)
Zenon Konopka (hey! He can actually score a few more than 1 goal)
Torrey Mitchell
Mike Rupp
Keith Ballard

And before you say, who cares their third/fourth lines? Fletcher has constantly shuffled the third/fourth lines because he's looking for more offense from everyone, not just from the first two lines.

Havlat was always known as a playmaker more than a scorer.

While known, that doesn't mean he can't score goals;

22 goals, 24 goals, 31 goals, 25 goals, 29 goals...yep! Doesn't seem like a goal scorer. And yes, while he was primarily known as more of a playmaker, he was still considered an offensive player that could generate goals. He was brought in to help ease the loss of Gaborik.

Healtey was brough in because of his year shorter deal than Havlat's,

Look above.

Kobasew was never considered a goal scorer!

Then why did we trade for him? Kobasew had actually three seasons of 20+ goal seasons, including two in Boston before we traded for him. Fletcher was looking for a goalscorer at the time and went after Kobasew, who Boston was more than happy to give up.

Goal scorers that the Wild brought in.... Rolston, Parise, Pominville... all worked out just fine.

Heatley, Setoguchi, Havlat haven't.

Also Rolston was from a different time WHEN THEY COULD SCORE GOALS.

Parise is actually below average (averages above 30 a season). Poms is looking like the only working but that is because we have an offensive center working with him.
 

TaLoN

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TSK - Parise is on a 34 goal pace right now, and he was on a 30 goal pace last season (just 1 goal below his total the year prior).

As for Havlat and Setoguchi... I guess both San Jose and Winnipeg dry up goal scorers than too? Come on guys...

Havlat is NOT a goal scorer... we got him well after his career prime... Setoguchi managed 19 goals with the Wild his first year and had 13 in a shortened season which was a pace of... omg 22 goals! That's right where he was his last two years with San Jose!

He MAINTAINED what he was doing in San Jose with the Wild...
 

grN1g

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Pominville was injured by brown and zucker saw his drop in production no? if not then i stand corrected cause i can't remember exactly how it went right now.
 

thestonedkoala

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Uhhh... the PPG line has only been together since late January. Parise was still putting up his typical goal scoring pace his entire time in a Wild uniform.

But Pominville (leading scorer) has been playing with Granlund off and on since the beginning of the year. Parise is similar to Nino, but is more skilled, so a good reason why Granlund is working well with him.

EDIT: The problem isn't the proven scorers on this team... Parise and Pominville have done their job all season long. The problem is, this team relies TOO MUCH on unproven scorers to do the rest of the work.

The problem is outside of Parise and Pominville; we're slow (which Vanek wouldn't help at all), we don't have a lot of good facilitators (Haula might get there one day), we got centers that just don't work with anyone (how many wingers now has Koivu actually worked with that fit since Mitts and Brunette left this team), and there is just depth problems all around.

I don't think it was the loss of Koivu that made this team better, it's that the organization finally found a center that got the offense to gel and to work better. We could use another center like that. Granlund has shown the ability to work well with a bunch of different wingers from Heatley to Parise to Nino to Poms. Koivu only worked well with who? Parise?

Again, I don't think bringing in Vanek will do much, of anything, if we don't get another skilled center down the middle. If that means Haula, then Haula it is.
 

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