Jaromir Jagr vs. Alexander Ovechkin

[Garbageyuk]

It's not a debate in any real sense because you've taken the losing position and wrapped yourself up in it. Jagr was not a power forward any more than Crosby is or peak Thornton was. He was a playmaker who dominated puck possession and used stickhandling to get into prime positions, but who did not use physicality to punish the opposition or as his first means of attack. You can refuse to learn what a pretty common term means, but you refusing to understand a term doesn't mean that you can debate that term.

Doubling down on the stupid now, while refusing to explain your own positions. And pretending there is no debate around the term and that there is a rigid, objective definition for it. A “losing” position lol. Funny how you refuse to tell me how I’m wrong, and don’t respond with anything other than your own feelings, but I’m losing…lmao. Move on.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't think anyone during Jagr's prime considered him a power forward.

 

[Garbageyuk]

I don't think anyone during Jagr's prime considered him a power forward.

While I wasn’t even the one who initially called him one in this thread, so there are people who did.

 

[JackSlater]

Doubling down on the stupid now, while refusing to explain your own positions. And pretending there is no debate around the term and that there is a rigid, objective definition for it. A “losing” position lol. Funny how you refuse to tell me how I’m wrong, and don’t respond with anything other than your own feelings, but I’m losing…lmao. Move on.

What else is there to tell you? I've explained what a power forward is and that Jagr didn't play that way. A power forward uses physicality to punish the opposition - Jagr did not. That element alone disqualifies him. You both don't know what the term is and, more impressively, refuse to bother learning even when examples are given to you. It's obvious that Jagr was not a power forward. You can claim that Jagr was a power forward just like a person can claim something like Hasek being a butterfly goaltender or Niedermayer being a defensive defenceman, but there isn't much room for discussion. The answer is pretty obvious even if some some guy called "Garbageyuk" is ignorant to it.

 

[Garbageyuk]

What else is there to tell you? I've explained what a power forward is and that Jagr didn't play that way. A power forward uses physicality to punish the opposition - Jagr did not. That element alone disqualifies him. You both don't know what the term is and, more impressively, refuse to bother learning even when examples are given to you. It's obvious that Jagr was not a power forward. You can claim that Jagr was a power forward just like a person can claim something like Hasek being a butterfly goaltender or Niedermayer being a defensive defenceman, but there isn't much room for discussion. The answer is pretty obvious even if some some guy called "Garbageyuk" is ignorant to it.

Power forward (ice hockey) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In ice hockey, power forward (PWF) is a loosely applied characterization of a forwardwho is big and strong, equally capable of playing physically or scoring goals and would most likely have high totals in both points and penalties.[1] It is usually used in reference to a forward who is physically large, with the toughness to dig the puck out of the corners, possesses offensive instincts, has mobility, puck-handling skills,[2][3] may be difficult to knock off the puck or to push away from the front of the goal[4] and willingly engage in fights when he feels it is required.[5]Possessing both physical size and offensive ability, power forwards are also often referred to as the 'complete' hockey player.

There is no rigid, unanimously agreed upon definition. The entire basis of your argument has now gone out the window. Jagr fits the above description to a T, minus the fighting and penalties.

Jagr used his size, strength, and physicality to power his way to the net and to prime scoring areas and to protect the puck and make plays. His puck protection wasn’t based on elusiveness and finesse stick handling, like Datsyuk for example.

If you don’t want any debate, refuse to engage your opponent’s points and arguments, and just want to keep repeating your own false assertions, then why are you here? To hear yourself talk?

 

[Felidae]

I’m going with jagr. He had 5 Art ross wins (4 consecutive), 4 of those wins with no Lemieux at all, and the 5th with half a season of Lemieux. In 1999-2000 he won the art Ross with 63 gp…with HoFers Robert lang and Martin straka as his centers and top team scoring d man J.Slegr….

Let's not act like Lang and Straka weren't very good players that hovered around the top 10 in points a few years.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Jagr is easily the better player. Old man Jagr from 2011-17 was still a superior 5vs5 player to Ovechkin at that time.

Do you really have to result to hyperbole? Your opinion was reflected in the poll.

No, old man Jagr wasn’t a better player when OV was putting up almost as many goals as Jagr had points.

 

[Rengorlex]

Do you really have to result to hyperbole? Your opinion was reflected in the poll.

No, old man Jagr wasn’t a better player when OV was putting up almost as many goals as Jagr had points.

Jagr was definitely better at 5vs5, as I said.

 

[JackSlater]

Power forward (ice hockey) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There is no rigid, unanimously agreed upon definition. The entire basis of your argument has now gone out the window. Jagr fits the above description to a T, minus the fighting and penalties.

Jagr used his size, strength, and physicality to power his way to the net and to prime scoring areas and to protect the puck and make plays. His puck protection wasn’t based on elusiveness and finesse stick handling, like Datsyuk for example.

If you don’t want any debate, refuse to engage your opponent’s points and arguments, and just want to keep repeating your own false assertions, then why are you here? To hear yourself talk?

Oh yeah, fits Jagr to a T except for the several parts that don't describe Jagr - because he wasn't a power forward. I know that you started this unaware of what the term meant and I'm somewhat doubtful that you saw Jagr at his best, but at least look at the definition that you yourself provided. Was Jagr "equally capable of playing physically or scoring goals" - no, because he didn't play a particularly physical style even though he was very capable of scoring. Was he "likely to have high totals in both points and penalties" - no, only high point totals because he was an elite playmaker but not a power forward. Did he "dig the puck out of corners"? Not very often, not surprising as he wasn't a grinder or power forward, though once he had the puck he was extremely difficult to take the puck from. Did he "willingly engage in fights" - no, because while he was a very tough player in terms of taking punishment he was neither a fighter nor a power forward.

I do appreciate that you posted a definition which highlights some of the key areas that differentiate Jagr from actual power forwards he played against like Lindros, Neely, or Tkachuk though. The definition should still highlight the physical element more so than it does, but it's wikipedia and will probably be improved over time.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I don't think anyone during Jagr's prime considered him a power forward.

Agreed. I don't recall Jagr being considered a power forward at any point during his career.

The term is a bit vague, but usually it refers to a forward with size and strength (which Jagr had), the ability to hang onto the puck (yes), willingness to go to the front of the net (not really), being a frequent and/or powerful hitter (not at all), having a mean streak (not at all), and the willingness to fight (not at all).

The best examples of power forwards during Jagr's career were Neely, Stevens, Roenick, Shanahan, LeClair, Tkachuk, Iginla, Bertuzzi, and Ovechkin (EDIT - and of course Lindros).

 

[Garbageyuk]

Oh yeah, fits Jagr to a T except for the several parts that don't describe Jagr - because he wasn't a power forward. I know that you started this unaware of what the term meant and I'm somewhat doubtful that you saw Jagr at his best, but at least look at the definition that you yourself provided. Was Jagr "equally capable of playing physically or scoring goals" - no, because he didn't play a particularly physical style even though he was very capable of scoring. Was he "likely to have high totals in both points and penalties" - no, only high point totals because he was an elite playmaker but not a power forward. Did he "dig the puck out of corners"? Not very often, not surprising as he wasn't a grinder or power forward, though once he had the puck he was extremely difficult to take the puck from. Did he "willingly engage in fights" - no, because while he was a very tough player in terms of taking punishment he was neither a fighter nor a power forward.

I do appreciate that you posted a definition which highlights some of the key areas that differentiate Jagr from actual power forwards he played against like Lindros, Neely, or Tkachuk though. The definition should still highlight the physical element more so than it does, but it's wikipedia and will probably be improved over time.

The point of posting that was to prove your assertion that there is a widely agreed upon definition of the term wrong - something you based your entire argument on initially.

And yes, he fits the he description pretty well, minus the fighting and penalties, like I said. No player will “check all the boxes” of that description perfectly. If that’s the standard you are holding to for a power forward, then there likely has never been one. Jagr fits most of the description provided.

Jagr using his size, strength, and physicality to drive the net, get to scoring areas, make plays, and protect the puck is one way of “playing physical”, whether you like it or not, and I think nearly everyone would agree. “Playing physical” does not strictly mean hitting, despite you wanting to frame it that way.

It’s funny how you selectively mentioned the parts of the description that best fit your narrative, and even then you aren’t even being truthful. I can do it the opposite way, without minimizing and trying to be disingenuous:

Was he big and strong? Yes.

Equally capable of playing physical and scoring goals? He scored a lot of goals and his game was based around using physical attributes to protect the puck and make plays, so yes.

Is he physically large? Yes.

Did he possess the toughness to dig the puck out of the corners? He would do so occasionally, if not regularly, so yes.

Did he possess offensive instincts, have mobility, and puck-handling skills? Yes.

Was he difficult to knock off the puck, or push away from the front of the goal? Absolutely, yes.

Did he possess both physical size and offensive ability? Again, yes.

Jagr fits the description better than the vast majority of players; I have just objectively proven that. You don’t like it? Too bad. You’ve lost, move on now.

 

[JackSlater]

The point of posting that was to prove your assertion that there is a widely agreed upon definition of the term wrong - something you based your entire argument on initially.

And yes, he fits the he description pretty well, minus the fighting and penalties, like I said. No player will “check all the boxes” of that description perfectly. If that’s the standard you are holding to for a power forward, then there likely has never been one. Jagr fits most of the description provided.

Jagr using his size, strength, and physicality to drive the net, get to scoring areas, make plays, and protect the puck is one way of “playing physical”, whether you like it or not, and I think nearly everyone would agree. “Playing physical” does not strictly mean hitting, despite you wanting to frame it that way.

It’s funny how you selectively mentioned the parts of the description that best fit your narrative, and even then you aren’t even being truthful. I can do it the opposite way, without minimizing and trying to be disingenuous:

Was he big and strong? Yes.

Equally capable of playing physical and scoring goals? He scored a lot of goals and his game was based around using physical attributes to protect the puck and make plays, so yes.

Is he physically large? Yes.

Did he possess the toughness to dig the puck out of the corners? He would do so occasionally, if not regularly, so yes.

Did he possess offensive instincts, have mobility, and puck-handling skills? Yes.

Was he difficult to knock off the puck, or push away from the front of the goal? Absolutely, yes.

Did he possess both physical size and offensive ability? Again, yes.

Jagr fits the description better than the vast majority of players; I have just objectively proven that. You don’t like it? Too bad. You’ve lost, move on now.

I am amused that you messed up by providing a definition of Jagr that he didn't match, so you are reduced to basically lying to try to save face. No, Jagr did not play physically. No, just because Jagr did occasionally dig pucks out of the corners just like literally every non-goaltender in the history of the sport does not mean that he qualified for that component of power forward. You're correct that Jagr was big. Citing that Jagr was big several times does not mitigate the fact that Jagr misses out on several of the criteria already noted.

Again - Jagr didn't even meet several criteria from the definition you handpicked for power forward. That's funny.

You didn't know what the term meant and you incorrectly called Jagr a power forward. No amount of twisting in the wind is going to change that. If you don't mind, tell me where Jagr ranks in any of these countdowns of power forwards:

From the Hockey News: All-time power forwards

From NHL.com: Who are the greatest power forwards of all time?

From Sports Illustrated: Allan Muir: Top 10 NHL Power Forwards of all time

From the History of Hockey section of HFBoards: Top Ten Power Forwards of All-Time?

Hell, even reddit:

I doubt you're going to bother reading it, but other than one guy saying that Jagr was the best player (but specifically not the best power forward) of the 90s, no one mentions Jagr in any of those situations. Over 30 players mentioned when comparing the greatest power forwards of all time, or even just the greatest power forwards of the 90s, and no one mentions Jagr. Despite Jagr being one of the very greatest players of all time. Because those people have a clue and presumably some basic understanding of what a power forward is and how Jagr played.

Jagr was not a power forward. It was nice of you to provide a definition that showed the areas in which Jagr is lacking when it comes to being classified as a power forward, but that's the only contribution you've had. It's just funny that your contribution worked against you, despite the sad attempts at twisting it because Jagr happened to be big.

 

[abo9]

The disrespect for the player sitting 2nd in NHL points all time is shocking,

Jaromir Jagr is definitely a step above Ovechkin. Jagr took 3 years in Russia and missed 2.5 seasons to lockouts, he should be at 2100 points and 850 goals. And he did it while playing with vastly worse line mates and teams than Ovechkin. Jagr had a domination level above Ovie, there is a reason only 99, 66 and 68 won all the Art Rosses during a span of almost 20 years. Ovechkin has very little on Jagr whatsoever. Ovie can have a new try when he passes Jagr in all time points!

Jagrs 54 goal & 121 point season in 2005-06 aged 33 on a crap team is better than anything Ovechkin put up in his prime

Jagr won 4 straight Art Ross Trophy between 1997 and 2001 (Jagr had the 2nd best PPG in 1996-1997 after Lemieux as well) And between 1994-95 and 2000-01 Jagr won 5 out of 7 Art Ross Trophys and was 2nd in 95-96 and had the 2nd best PPG in 96-97. Jagr dominated the league in a way Ovechkin has never managed during such a long time span. Crosby might have done it if he had not been unlucky with injuries, but its not certain.

When did Ovechkin win 5 out of 7 seven scoring titles while being the 2nd highest scoring player the other 2 years behind only the out of this world Mario Lemieux? Jagr would probably have made it 7 out of 7 if Lemieux was not playing. Jagr was the only player outscoring Mario Lemieux during his 2000-01 comeback season.

At last: The notion that Jagrs early years were fairly underwhelming is also untrue, the only reason Jagr was not able to put up big numbers in his first 2-3 seasons is because the Pens team was so stacked Jagr had to settle for 3rd line ice time with limited PP ice time. Crosby & Ovechkin was given unlimited ice time right from the start as they arrived on teams that sucked so they went straight into 25 minutes per game on the 1st line/1st PP,

Imagine how many points Jagr would have scored in 1990-91, 1991-92 and 1992-93 if he had been placed on the 1st line and 1st PP with Lemieux with 25+ minutes per game? Note: It does not help to play on a heavily stacked offensive team if you are not on the ice with these amazing players most of the time!

Conclusion: Jaromir Jagr is crazily underrated among hockey fans and especially by Crosby and Ovechkin fans who seems to have missed out on Jagrs prime domination time.

I find it completely absurd when I see many newer fans talking about the top 10 with Crosby and Ovechkin on it, but without Jagr.

Why did my love of Ovechkin (grew up on him) blinded me in this poll for the even greater greatness of Jagr?

I'm aware that I haven't sene Jagr's best, so my experience is 2005 and later. But, I'm surprised by how relatively little hype Jagr gets when I see discussions about generational players.

Like, would arguing Jagr > McDavid or Crosby be ridiculous? The man is the 2nd best scorer in the NHL and played in the Dead Puck Era from what I gather... + 2-3 other eras as well.

I feel like longevity overshadows his perhaps generational peak play when discussing him

 

[Garbageyuk]

so you are reduced to basically lying to try to save face.

Lol where did I lie? This is projection. Jagr possesses most of the attributes of the description, all except for fighting and penalties. I explained how he played a physical game; you’ve chosen to ignore it because it doesn’t fit your narrative. You seem to be unable to engage in a debate without resorting to ad hominems, avoidance, and straw man tactics - very unfortunate. We are done here because you refuse to argue in good faith. Have a good day sir (sincerely) .

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...Ovechkin might be the greatest goal scorer to ever play...might be...and the answer is still Jagr all day every day...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Why did my love of Ovechkin (grew up on him) blinded me in this poll for the even greater greatness of Jagr?

I'm aware that I haven't sene Jagr's best, so my experience is 2005 and later. But, I'm surprised by how relatively little hype Jagr gets when I see discussions about generational players.

Like, would arguing Jagr > McDavid or Crosby be ridiculous? The man is the 2nd best scorer in the NHL and played in the Dead Puck Era from what I gather... + 2-3 other eras as well.

I feel like longevity overshadows his perhaps generational peak play when discussing him

This, it gets overlooked that Jagr is top 5 all time in goals, assists and points

 

[JackSlater]

Lol where did I lie? This is projection. Jagr possesses most of the attributes of the description, all except for fighting and penalties. I explained how he played a physical game; you’ve chosen to ignore it because it doesn’t fit your narrative. You seem to be unable to engage in a debate without resorting to ad hominems, avoidance, and straw man tactics - very unfortunate. We are done here because you refuse to argue in good faith. Have a good day sir (sincerely) .

I think reality is finally setting in for you, which is good. Still didn't tell me how often Jagr came up in those discussions of power forwards but I'll let that go. You established that Jagr was big and while he played a physical game in one sense, he was on the receiving end of the physicality for the most part and did not dish it out. Credit to him for being tough as nails and being able to take it. Not a power forward, as most of us already know. I've seen the case made that Ovechkin is a power forward, which is closer to the truth in some ways but further from the truth in others. Between the two titular players, young Ovechkin was probably the closest either was to a power forward. Not that it really matters.

Still prefer Jagr as a player. I don't think that anyone since has been clearly better than the versions of Jagr from the 1999 and 2000 seasons.

 

[Garbageyuk]

I think reality is finally setting in for you, which is good. Still didn't tell me how often Jagr came up in those discussions of power forwards but I'll let that go. You established that Jagr was big and while he played a physical game in one sense, he was on the receiving end of the physicality for the most part and did not dish it out. Credit to him for being tough as nails and being able to take it. Not a power forward, as most of us already know. I've seen the case made that Ovechkin is a power forward, which is closer to the truth in some ways but further from the truth in others. Between the two titular players, young Ovechkin was probably the closest either was to a power forward. Not that it really matters.

Still prefer Jagr as a player. I don't think that anyone since has been clearly better than the versions of Jagr from the 1999 and 2000 seasons.

So you concede that Jagr had many power forward-esq facets to his game then, and not just the bolded? Because that is just facts. It doesn’t matter if he was on the receiving end of it or not; he was not easy to play against physically. In fact, it was quite the opposite. His physical style combined with his frame and strength dominated opponents and wore them down - that was a part of why he was so effective as a hockey player. I will admit that he is not widely regarded as a power forward in the typical sense, however, you cannot deny that many aspects of his game are attributable to the style. Again, I will reiterate: no player checks all the boxes of a power forward perfectly. I hope we are now at an understanding of where each other is coming from.

 

[JackSlater]

So you concede that Jagr had many power forward-esq facets to his game then, and not just the bolded? Because that is just facts. It doesn’t matter if he was on the receiving end of it or not; he was not easy to play against physically. In fact, it was quite the opposite. His physical style combined with his frame and strength dominated opponents and wore them down - that was a part of why he was so effective as a hockey player. I will admit that he is not widely regarded as a power forward in the typical sense, however, you cannot deny that many aspects of his game are attributable to the style. Again, I will reiterate: no player checks all the boxes of a power forward perfectly. I hope we are now at an understanding of where each other is coming from.

Jagr was a very strong and powerful player. He was very, very tough. No question. Those things didn't manifest in his game as they do for a power forward though even if Jagr had the right body for it. Probably prolonged his career that he didn't play that way since he already took a ton of abuse hanging onto the puck forever year after year.

 

[Killer Orcas]

Ovie scores goals Jagr does to and much more. This isn't close for me Jagr all the way.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Jagr was a very strong and powerful player. He was very, very tough. No question. Those things didn't manifest in his game as they do for a power forward though even if Jagr had the right body for it. Probably prolonged his career that he didn't play that way since he already took a ton of abuse hanging onto the puck forever year after year.

Well, I guess that’s probably as close to an agreement as we are going to get. Interesting debate, even if things may have gotten misconstrued a touch on both sides. I get what you are saying, and there is validity to some of your points. However I still disagree with others and your overall debate style. Nonetheless, I appreciate a good discussion and I wish you a good rest of your day. Take care.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ya it's Ovechkin and I'm a big Jagr fan. If we hold Ovechkin's down years against him than Jagr is behind him here as well as he had more of them. Anyone who says this is an easy decision, or it's clearly one player or the other is just a homer and should be ignored. This is very close.

These type of posts should be bannable offenses.

Ovechkin has seasons of 65 points in 78 games. 69 points in 82 games. 71 points in 79 games. In his prime all well outside top 10 in scoring. Disgusting for a player being compared to jagr

 

[Nasti]

Ovechkin has played 1274 games and scored 1410 points.

When Jagr left for the KHL in 2008, he had played 1273 games and scored 1599 points. This while his prime was in the middle of the dead puck era.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't know anymore.

Probably Jagr, but it's close.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Ovi going to hit 900 career goals.

He is going down as greater.

Jagr obviously an amazing talent but just not the guy to carry you on his back...Meh in the playoffs...now Ovechkin not great either but he at least has one CS run