Jaromir Jagr vs. Alexander Ovechkin

[Dessloch]

You and Jagr's Mom think Jagr's 2005-2006 season was better than Ovechkin's 65 goal 2007-2008 season.

Jagr had Ovi beat 121 points to 112, while also having better +/-, all while playing on a worse team, with lesser linemates and dragged the forever dead Rangers to the playoffs against all odds in the process.

And Jagr did it at age 33, Ovie did it in his absolute prime.

So yes, indeed, Jagrs 2005-2006 season was more impressive than Ovies 2007-2008 season.

Anyone arguing that Ovechkin currently is ahead of Jagr on the all time ranking must be drinking heavily this weekend!

 

[jj cale]

Jagr, better all around offensive player.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Jagr had Ovi beat 121 points to 112, while also having better +/-, all while playing on a worse team, with lesser linemates and dragged the forever dead Rangers to the playoffs against all odds in the process.

I get it, you're a huge Crosby/Pens fan and want to revise history to knock down Ovechkin.

The Rangers in 05-06 had a 100 point season.
The Capitals had a 94 point season.

So no. Absolutely not a worse team.

Jagr played with Straka, who was a 94 point player a few years earlier. He also played a lot at ES with Nylander. 79 and 76 points respectively.

Ovechkin played half with Victor Kozlov and the other half with rookie Backstrom. They scored 69 and 54 points.

So no, absolutely not lesser line mates.

Ovechkin outscored his nearest teammate by 62%. Jagr by 56%.
Ovechkin out-goaled his nearest teammate by 150%. Jagr by 80%.

So Ovechkin compares far more favorably to his teammates than Jagr did to his.

Also, there's this:

25 Best Forward Seasons Since 2005 - #23

Consider only regular seasons for these polls. As the theme is "best seasons," votes should probably be geared more toward final stat lines and award placements than projections ("best players"). Results: 1. Ovechkin 2008 2. Malkin 2012 3. Kucherov 2019 4. Ovechkin 2010 5. Ovechkin 2009 6...

forums.hfboards.com

and this:

Ranking the MVP Seasons Since 2000

Rank the MVP seasons since from 2019 to 2000 - best to worst. (regular season only)

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Regal]

This is such a tough comparison because it really depends on how you want to judge a player. I think you can go either way on who was better at their best, and Jagr was near his best for longer, but Ovechkin has been healthier, and has more quality seasons that weren’t “peak” years, and hasn’t had issues with quitting on the team when things weren’t going well, and has been more willing to buy into the coach’s system. I think Jagr was a more talented player overall, but I think Ovechkin has had the better career at this point, as I put more stock into Ovechkin being a star for as long as he has than Jagr being really good in his 40s, and if you’re drafting one from the start of their career, I think you take Ovechkin, as he was better out of the gate and has been an ideal franchise player for 15+ years.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I think the basic question here is, is it harder to get 5 scoring titles or 9 goal titles?

 

[M2Beezy]

This is Alexander Ovechkin

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Jagr had Ovi beat 121 points to 112, while also having better +/-, all while playing on a worse team, with lesser linemates and dragged the forever dead Rangers to the playoffs against all odds in the process.

And Jagr did it at age 33, Ovie did it in his absolute prime.

So yes, indeed, Jagrs 2005-2006 season was more impressive than Ovies 2007-2008 season.

Anyone arguing that Ovechkin currently is ahead of Jagr on the all time ranking must be drinking heavily this weekend!

 

[Garbageyuk]

Jagr was not a power forward in any typical sense of the term. He was huge and maybe the greatest puck protector of all time, but he didn't really punish people physically. He did go to the dirty areas sometimes, but not as often as a power forward would be expected to. I would agree that I'd be more nervous facing Jagr, mainly because he was a bigger offensive threat.

A power forward is one that uses some form of physicality to “power” his way to the net or to make plays. Jagr’s puck protection skills, probably his hallmark attribute and something he was likely the best in NHL history at, absolutely fits the bill for the definition of a power forward. He used his frame, size, and strength to overwhelm defenders and power his way to the net or to prime playmaking areas, often with one hand on his stick and using the other arm to fend off opposing players. He might be the epitome of a power forward.

 

[Nasti]

Jagr was just a complete offensive weapon. He could beat you any way he wanted. Hands down the better player.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

A power forward is one that uses some form of physicality to “power” his way to the net or to make plays. Jagr’s puck protection skills, probably his hallmark attribute and something he was likely the best in NHL history at, absolutely fits the bill for the definition of a power forward. He used his frame, size, and strength to overwhelm defenders and power his way to the net or to prime playmaking areas, often with one hand on his stick and using the other arm to fend off opposing players. He might be the epitome of a power forward.

Once again, that's just a forward with elite puck protection. Jagr is in no way, shape or form a power forward. No more than Joe Thornton is one

A power forward is feared physically because they'll hit you then kick your ass. Think Cam Neely.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Once again, that's just a forward with elite puck protection. Jagr is in no way, shape or form a power forward. No more than Joe Thornton is one

A power forward is feared physically because they'll hit you then kick your ass. Think Cam Neely.

You’re talking about an enforcer. Cam Neely just happened to be one who could play and score a lot of goals.

The term “power forward” is loosely defined anyways. Hitting and fighting really has nothing to do with scoring. Neely’s goal scoring was actually mostly finesse and positioning/awareness, rather than him using any kind of physicality to score or make plays.

People just saw goal scoring + hitting + fighting and labelled him a power forward, which is fine if you choose to define the term that way. I don’t, but to each his own. And yes, I realize a lot of people consider Neely the archetype of a power forward. But that’s if your definition of a power forward is “a goal scorer who also hits and fights”. Those 3 things really don’t have much to do with each other, so it’s hard for me consider that as the cohesive definition of a power forward.

 

[Paul4587]

Jagr dominated his peers in terms of offensive production in the late 90s/early 2000s in a way I’ve never witnessed from anyone currently in the league (McDavid with another Ross next year probably matches him though). He’s ahead of Ovi for me.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

How can you not vote for this:

 

[cheesesteak]

Ovi is one of the greats but it’s Jagr. At 40 he was still carrying around NHL d-men on his hip. He has a better all around offensive game. Ovi has hitting and you can give him one timer. There’s a bigger discrepancy between Ovi’s puck possession compared to Jagr’s shot.

I’d take Jagr over anyone from Ovi’s generation (Crosby, Malkin, etc). For me he’s up there at GOAT status with Gretzky and Lemuiex. McDavid seems to be the only player currently with a chance to join them.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Ovechkin can catch him IMO but he might not be able to do it

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Jagr. Ovechkin essentially has 3 years playing at that level then became a sub ppg one time shooter

 

[JackSlater]

A power forward is one that uses some form of physicality to “power” his way to the net or to make plays. Jagr’s puck protection skills, probably his hallmark attribute and something he was likely the best in NHL history at, absolutely fits the bill for the definition of a power forward. He used his frame, size, and strength to overwhelm defenders and power his way to the net or to prime playmaking areas, often with one hand on his stick and using the other arm to fend off opposing players. He might be the epitome of a power forward.

You’re talking about an enforcer. Cam Neely just happened to be one who could play and score a lot of goals.

The term “power forward” is loosely defined anyways. Hitting and fighting really has nothing to do with scoring. Neely’s goal scoring was actually mostly finesse and positioning/awareness, rather than him using any kind of physicality to score or make plays.

People just saw goal scoring + hitting + fighting and labelled him a power forward, which is fine if you choose to define the term that way. I don’t, but to each his own. And yes, I realize a lot of people consider Neely the archetype of a power forward. But that’s if your definition of a power forward is “a goal scorer who also hits and fights”. Those 3 things really don’t have much to do with each other, so it’s hard for me consider that as the cohesive definition of a power forward.

You don't seem to actually know what the term means. Jagr played during quite possibly the peak era of power forwards in the 90s, and I already stated which were the star power forwards. The Neely mention is also good since he's pretty much the prototypical power forward. You might choose, based on your second post, to reject more or less what the term is, but it seems foolish to expect anyone to agree with your own personal definition rather than the accepted definition from when Jagr played. A power forward is more than a big forward who dominates possession - there is a punishment element that Jagr never had, and so he was not a power forward.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Ya it's Ovechkin and I'm a big Jagr fan. If we hold Ovechkin's down years against him than Jagr is behind him here as well as he had more of them. Anyone who says this is an easy decision, or it's clearly one player or the other is just a homer and should be ignored. This is very close.

Jagr. Ovechkin essentially has 3 years playing at that level then became a sub ppg one time shooter

These type of posts should be bannable offenses.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin. Not sure it's even close.

With posts like this I wonder if some people have even read the thread title and OP?

Who is the greater all-time player now? And who do you think by the time their careers are over?

The 4th option is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but Jagr is still playing and he might never retire. Also, Jagr did post a video on his Twitter to warn Ovechkin that he was coming for him after Ovechkin passed him in goals for a European player.

Jaromir Jagr:

Regular Season GP = 1733
Regular Season G = 766
Regular Season A = 1155
Regular Season PTS = 1921

Playoffs GP = 208
Playoffs G = 78
Playoffs A = 123
Playoffs PTS = 201

Stanley Cups = 2
Olympic Gold Medals = 1

Hart = 1
Lindsay/Pearson = 3
Art Ross = 5
Conn Smythe = 0
Rocket Richard = 0

1st All-Star Team = 7
2nd All-Star Team = 1

Top 10 G Finishes = 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9 (8 total)
Top 10 A Finishes = 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7, 9 (10 total)
Top 10 PTS Finishes = 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9 (11 total)



Alexander Ovechkin:

Regular Season GP = 1274
Regular Season G = 780
Regular Season A = 630
Regular Season PTS = 1410

Playoffs GP = 147
Playoffs G = 72
Playoffs A = 69
Playoffs PTS = 141

Stanley Cups = 1
Olympic Gold Medals = 0

Hart = 3
Lindsay/Pearson = 3
Art Ross = 1
Conn Smythe = 1
Rocket Richard = 9

1st All-Star Team = 8
2nd All-Star Team = 4

Top 10 G Finishes = 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5 (14 total)
Top 10 A Finishes = 6, 6, 10 (3 total)
Top 10 PTS Finishes = 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8 (8 total)

 

[wetcoast]

Ya it's Ovechkin and I'm a big Jagr fan. If we hold Ovechkin's down years against him than Jagr is behind him here as well as he had more of them. Anyone who says this is an easy decision, or it's clearly one player or the other is just a homer and should be ignored. This is very close.

These type of posts should be bannable offenses.

Exactly because since then he has 881 points in 878 games and just happened to have 3902 SOG while the guy in second had 2978 right?

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

also the more down years are post age 35 (actually 39 since he left for the KHL) so it's not exactly an honest argument there.

Jagr has a longer consistent prime and peak than Ovi does and that's never going to change no matter on how views this poll question.

 

[Garbageyuk]

You don't seem to actually know what the term means. Jagr played during quite possibly the peak era of power forwards in the 90s, and I already stated which were the star power forwards. The Neely mention is also good since he's pretty much the prototypical power forward. You might choose, based on your second post, to reject more or less what the term is, but it seems foolish to expect anyone to agree with your own personal definition rather than the accepted definition from when Jagr played. A power forward is more than a big forward who dominates possession - there is a punishment element that Jagr never had, and so he was not a power forward.

You have over 15,000 posts - you’ve been around the block a few times. Don’t act like debate over the definition of the term doesn’t come up in every thread about it. That’s being disingenuous.

That definition you stated near the end of your post is one you made up yourself; I never said that.

Lastly, explain to me what the difference is between “a goal scorer who also hits and fights”, and “an enforcer who also scores goals”. You mentioned Neely as your example of a power forward because “he could hit you, then kick your ass after.” The “power forward” part has to have something to do with the players production, otherwise you are just talking about an enforcer, but calling it something else. Neely did not use a “power game” or physicality to score goals much at all. Like I said, he was mostly a finesse player in that regard who relied on positioning and awareness/IQ to get scoring opportunities.

I fully expect you to find a way to back out of this and give a non-answer response because this doesn’t seem like a debate you’re interested in, and that’s fair, but I just wanted to explain my reasoning.

 

[JackSlater]

You have over 15,000 posts - you’ve been around the block a few times. Don’t act like debate over the definition of the term doesn’t come up in every thread about it. That’s being disingenuous.

That definition you stated near the end of your post is one you made up yourself; I never said that.

Lastly, explain to me what the difference is between “a goal scorer who also hits and fights”, and “an enforcer who also scores goals”. You mentioned Neely as your example of a power forward because “he could hit you, then kick your ass after.” The “power forward” part has to have something to do with the players production, otherwise you are just talking about an enforcer, but calling it something else. Neely did not use a “power game” or physicality to score goals much at all. Like I said, he was mostly a finesse player who relied on positioning and awareness/IQ to get scoring opportunities.

I fully expect you to find a way to back out of this and give a non-answer response because this doesn’t seem like a debate you’re interested in, and that’s fair, but I just wanted to explain my reasoning.

It's not a debate in any real sense. You've taken a fairly ridiculous stance by claiming that Jagr was a power forward. I'm sure that he's been called such before but it's akin to calling Ovechkin a playmaker because he passes sometimes and has the capacity to theoretically play that way or describing Crosby as a sniper because he led the NHL in goals twice. Your description of Neely is also fairly baffling and inaccurate. Power forward is not an obscure term, most fans have a general idea of what it means, you seem not to and for whatever reason keep trying, poorly, to twist around rather than learning a pretty common phrase.

A power forward is, or more so was, a player who played a physical game (hitting, grinding the opposition down) regularly that punished players physically in addition to helping them score. Jagr was not that player. He was huge and a great puck protector and playmaker. He lacked the physical, punishing element to be called a power forward.

 

[Garbageyuk]

It's not a debate in any real sense. You've taken a fairly ridiculous stance by claiming that Jagr was a power forward. I'm sure that he's been called such before but it's akin to calling Ovechkin a playmaker because he passes sometimes and has the capacity to theoretically play that way or describing Crosby as a sniper because he led the NHL in goals twice. Your description of Neely is also fairly baffling and inaccurate. Power forward is not an obscure term, most fans have a general idea of what it means, you seem not to and for whatever reason keep trying, poorly, to twist around rather than learning a pretty common phrase.

A power forward is, or more so was, a player who played a physical game (hitting, grinding the opposition down) regularly that punished players physically in addition to helping them score. Jagr was not that player. He was huge and a great puck protector and playmaker. He lacked the physical, punishing element to be called a power forward.

“It’s not a debate” because you don’t want it to be? Ok lol that’s one way of handling opposing arguments.

The take on Neely isn’t inaccurate at all. He didn’t use physicality or a “grinding” or “punishing” game to score goals. He hit and fought, but his goal scoring style didn’t have much to do with that. He wasn’t one to bull rush his way to the net or smash someone in the corner, dig the puck out and score consistently. I’m sure it happened the odd time, but the bulk of his scoring came from finesse and skill, and being in the right place at the right time - like most great goal scorers.

And lol. There is plenty of debate around the term. Everyone who’s posted here a while knows that. You want to pretend there isn’t in order to pass off your own definition as inarguable fact. Doesn’t work like that buddy.

 

[JackSlater]

“It’s not a debate” because you don’t want it to be? Ok lol that’s one way of handling opposing arguments.

The take on Neely isn’t inaccurate at all. He didn’t use physicality or a “grinding” or “punishing” game to score goals. He hit and fought, but his goal scoring style didn’t have much to do with that. He wasn’t one to bull rush his way to the net or smash someone in the corner, dig the puck out and score consistently. I’m sure it happened the odd time, but the bulk of his scoring came from finesse and skill, and being in the right place at the right time - like most great goal scorers.

And lol. There is plenty of debate around the term. Everyone who’s posted here a while knows that. You want to pretend there isn’t in order to pass off your own definition as inarguable fact. Doesn’t work like that buddy.

It's not a debate in any real sense because you've taken the losing position and wrapped yourself up in it. Jagr was not a power forward any more than Crosby is or peak Thornton was. He was a playmaker who dominated puck possession and used stickhandling to get into prime positions, but who did not use physicality to punish the opposition or as his first means of attack. You can refuse to learn what a pretty common term means, but you refusing to understand a term doesn't mean that you can debate that term.

 

[wetcoast]

“It’s not a debate” because you don’t want it to be? Ok lol that’s one way of handling opposing arguments.

The take on Neely isn’t inaccurate at all. He didn’t use physicality or a “grinding” or “punishing” game to score goals. He hit and fought, but his goal scoring style didn’t have much to do with that. He wasn’t one to bull rush his way to the net or smash someone in the corner, dig the puck out and score consistently. I’m sure it happened the odd time, but the bulk of his scoring came from finesse and skill, and being in the right place at the right time - like most great goal scorers.

And lol. There is plenty of debate around the term. Everyone who’s posted here a while knows that. You want to pretend there isn’t in order to pass off your own definition as inarguable fact. Doesn’t work like that buddy.

You could always do a poll and in the most common everyday sense most people would agree that Jagr wasn't a "power forward".

When people think "power forward" they will answer a guy like cam Neely way more often than Jagr.