Jared Cowen: Future top 4 dman or just a man bun aficionado? [MOD Warning: Post 393]

[JD1]

Currently my feeling is that we should deal Cowen for the best return possible(ideally top 4 pmd.. unrealistic or a top 6 forward prospect..more realistic).

This is what I find so funny about HF Boards. You are dumping on Cowen on the one hand and turning around and saying we should trade him for a top 4 puck moving defencemen.

In the NHL, for starters the value of a PMD > the value of stay at home guy. And you don't seem to think that Cowen is a top 4 stay at home guy yet think we should trade him for a top 4 PMD guy. Who makes that trade? What GM in this league makes that trade?

Re the Wiercioch / Cowen debate - IMO both players have their flaws and their flaws are different. But here's something to think about: our hot streak coincides with Cowen being out and Wiercioch in. This team has a better winning percentage with Wiercioch in the lineup than with him out of the lineup. It's as simple as that. He brings a different element to the game than Cowen does and this team seems to benefit from that element.

Cowen has played more hockey than Wiercioch to this point in their young careers but Cowen's career +/- is - 16 and Wiercioch's career +/- is + 17. Just this year, Cowen is -13 and Wiercioch is +9. Put quite simply, the puck goes in our net when Cowen is on the ice and it goes in the other guy's net when Wiercioch is on the ice.

I like both. Think we should keep both.

 

[guyzeur]

RE: Wiercioch vs Cowen

What stats exist right now that can effectively compare a defensive defenceman with an offensive one?


I ask because MAK says this:


... and I'm wondering what "everything" is comprised of.

The eye test and MAK's opinion

 

[guyzeur]

This is what I find so funny about HF Boards. You are dumping on Cowen on the one hand and turning around and saying we should trade him for a top 4 puck moving defencemen.

In the NHL, for starters the value of a PMD > the value of stay at home guy. And you don't seem to think that Cowen is a top 4 stay at home guy yet think we should trade him for a top 4 PMD guy. Who makes that trade? What GM in this league makes that trade?

Re the Wiercioch / Cowen debate - IMO both players have their flaws and their flaws are different. But here's something to think about: our hot streak coincides with Cowen being out and Wiercioch in. This team has a better winning percentage with Wiercioch in the lineup than with him out of the lineup. It's as simple as that. He brings a different element to the game than Cowen does and this team seems to benefit from that element.

Cowen has played more hockey than Wiercioch to this point in their young careers but Cowen's career +/- is - 16 and Wiercioch's career +/- is + 17. Just this year, Cowen is -13 and Wiercioch is +9. Put quite simply, the puck goes in our net when Cowen is on the ice and it goes in the other guy's net when Wiercioch is on the ice.

I like both. Think we should keep both.

Not really fair to compare Cowen while playing for a bad Sens team while Wiercioch was sitting.

Now the new coach has Methot and a healthy Karlsson, Neil, Lehner and Philips are not playing, a better system and they're making less mistakes as a team.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Not really fair to compare Cowen while playing for a bad Sens team while Wiercioch was sitting.

Now the new coach has Methot and a healthy Karlsson, Neil, Lehner and Philips are not playing, a better system and they're making less mistakes as a team.

Not to mention playing in front of Hammond who has been stellar

 

[bonehead]

A core problem with our team is that Cowen, Wiercioch, Boro, Gryba & Phillips are all immobile defense who slot in as 5/6 or 7. Can't play three of them and succeed - regularly - against the big boys. League is just too skilled & fast.

Would love for Cowen to have developed - he was clearly there in his rookie season - but lacks the skill and hockey sense to play higher in the lineup. Hard for many here to accept, but Wiercioch + Ceci has been much steadier/stronger, much better at moving the puck, than Cowen + Ceci. 46 has his flaws, but has a real +ve impact on our offence through quicker/better transition. Cowen is horrible at this. My hope:

- trade Cowen (for whatever)
- trade Gryba & add a mobile 5/6 (to better complement Boro)
- hope Phillips retires
- use Claessen as #7

Methot + Karlsson
Wiercioch + Ceci
Boro + ???
Claessen

 

[LuckyPierre]

Jared Cowen is a liability.

If he let go of his aspirations of being the next Chris Pronger, and accepted that he could be a Luke Richardson, he'd be a valuable component of the bottom four of the defence.

Problem is, he simply can't help himself from trying to be what he isn't. Ironically, a demotion to Bingo under Luke last year would have likely solved many of his problems. That's a Murray mistake, as was not trading Cowen at the deadline.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

There is no reason to think he can become a Braydon Coburn type at the very least, which is a solid top four d-man with predominantly defensive responsibilities. Pairs with an elite offensive partner (Ceci?) and is one of the first guys out for the PK and key defensive zone starts.

Part of Cowen's problem is his skillset offensively is slightly better than average for a defensive d-man, so he has tried to do too much at times. That was probably a year or two ago, and the start of some of his trouble. He finally realized he isn't going to be Shea Weber, and then, when he recognized he needed to become more defensive focused, he got distracted with big hits which took him out of position yet again.

He'll figure it out, and hopefully with us. Because when he does figure it out, he'll be the type of player we covet. Basically a better version of water Gryba is right now.

The main issue in the next year or two is his salary, but we have time to over pay him a bit in hopes he can settle in to his role. Ya gotta be patient with big d-men and sometimes the worst thing that can happen to them is playing well right away in the NHL. Creates expectations. But he played such a simple game early on in his career, he really needs to go back to that.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Jared Cowen is a liability.

If he let go of his aspirations of being the next Chris Pronger, and accepted that he could be a Luke Richardson, he'd be a valuable component of the bottom four of the defence.

Problem is, he simply can't help himself from trying to be what he isn't. Ironically, a demotion to Bingo under Luke last year would have likely solved many of his problems. That's a Murray mistake, as was not trading Cowen at the deadline.

as was the huge contract. Murray got schooled on that one and everyone knew it

 

[guyzeur]

Jared Cowen is a liability.

If he let go of his aspirations of being the next Chris Pronger, and accepted that he could be a Luke Richardson, he'd be a valuable component of the bottom four of the defence.

Problem is, he simply can't help himself from trying to be what he isn't. Ironically, a demotion to Bingo under Luke last year would have likely solved many of his problems. That's a Murray mistake, as was not trading Cowen at the deadline.

as was the huge contract. Murray got schooled on that one and everyone knew it

Why are you two bringing Murray when the topic is Cowen as a top 4.

 

[Lenny the Lynx]

I'm happy with the first pairing, I like Boro/Gryba as the 3rd and I like Ceci as the 2nd pairing RD.
We desperately need someone to step into the 2nd pairing LD. Ideally this person should be able to play on the PP as we are a bit light in that area.

I don't really care about the Cowen/Weir debate because to me neither of them have shown they are ready for that 2nd pairing LD role. Both have had good stretches and bad stretches, which is pretty typical for young guys (Ceci is an exception)

Best case scenario for next season is a trade/UFA brings in a mobile LD that can handle a top 4 role, then one of these guys is traded and the other is the 7th man. If that doesn't happen, we are stuck with the rotation of these two guys and hopefully one or both of them step up their games.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Why are you two bringing Murray when the topic is Cowen as a top 4.

Murray thinks/thought Cowen was a top 4. Seems relevant as he is the manager

 

[guyzeur]

Murray thinks/thought Cowen was a top 4. Seems relevant as he is the manager

Does the OP want your opinion or Murray's?

His salary and trade value have really nothing to do if he is qualified as a top 4.

 

[DrEasy]

Jared Cowen is a liability.

If he let go of his aspirations of being the next Chris Pronger, and accepted that he could be a Luke Richardson, he'd be a valuable component of the bottom four of the defence.

Problem is, he simply can't help himself from trying to be what he isn't. Ironically, a demotion to Bingo under Luke last year would have likely solved many of his problems. That's a Murray mistake, as was not trading Cowen at the deadline.

I disagree. If we project him as the next Luke Richardson we might as well trade him. It's precisely because some of us still see his potential as a mini-Chara that we want to to give him more time: I want him to shoot (we know he can), fight (we know he can), deliver big hits (we know he can), go on big bulldozing offensive rushes (we know he can) on a regular basis (that's the problem...).

He can be a fearsome guy on the ice. I just don't know if it's health or lack of confidence that is getting in the way.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I still believe in Cowen because when he is on his game he is a difference maker. He changes complexity of a game by his strength alone. Yall kno how rare dat is? And he's shown stretches where he plays like top 2-4 defender so i'm bless.

Next season tho is do or die.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Agree on Cowen, re: some of his attributes are worth being patient with his development and progression. On the other hand, totally understand people who are fed up with not seeing any progress with this guy. I'm likely to think he can improve. I think he has the physical tools to be a serviceable guy, if nothing else. But man oh man if this guy can tap in to his vast potential he could be such a huge difference maker on our blue line.

 

[bert]

Not even remotely close to a top 4. Looks like a borderline NHL'er to me, with all that physical talent its astounding how little of a positive impact he can make in a game. The lack of hockey sense and puck skills makes him a liability and I believe with him in the lineup it makes the team worse. I wish he was going to be a player, his speed and strength have definitely improved this season but he cant seem to make good decisions.

 

[bert]

I still believe in Cowen because when he is on his game he is a difference maker. He changes complexity of a game by his strength alone. Yall kno how rare dat is? And he's shown stretches where he plays like top 2-4 defender so i'm bless.

Next season tho is do or die.

I honestly tried to think of a time he changed a game with his physical play and the only time that come to mind was the hit against Skinner then fight against Larose against Carolina.

Do you have any other examples?

 

[bert]

I disagree. If we project him as the next Luke Richardson we might as well trade him. It's precisely because some of us still see his potential as a mini-Chara that we want to to give him more time: I want him to shoot (we know he can), fight (we know he can), deliver big hits (we know he can), go on big bulldozing offensive rushes (we know he can) on a regular basis (that's the problem...).

He can be a fearsome guy on the ice. I just don't know if it's health or lack of confidence that is getting in the way.

Luke Richardson was drafted 7th overall and played over 1400 games in the NHL. an unbelievable player for a very long time, if Jared Cowen gets to that level I will be ecstatic.

Do people actually think Cowen is going to be like Chara? You are all going to be very sadly mistaken. Its like no one around here has ever seen a big defensive D man before... There are tons in the NHL that were 4,5,6 guys which at this point is really the best they are going to get out of him.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He has the tools to be a mini-Chara

Him getting there is another matter entirely and yes, it doesn't seem likely

Chara looked like a surefire bust for a while too though

 

[JD1]

Not really fair to compare Cowen while playing for a bad Sens team while Wiercioch was sitting. .

possibly Cowen playing and Wiercioch sitting contributed to the team being bad????

just sayin'

 

[StefanW]

I liked Cowen during his rookie season. Since his injury he has not been as physical and he seems a step behind the play. People attribute this to processing speed, but I am not so sure. Maybe his hip just wasn't the same after coming back.

Regardless, he is running out of rope as far as I am concerned. I think the team has been willing to cut him extra slack because he brings toughness to the lineup, which still has some value. However, if the value added does not exceed the value lost in poor play then it is time to move on.

I am 100% on board if he is a part of the package that brings in the forward BM keeps pining for. Apparently Edmonton really likes Cowen, and they are good trade partners for us right now.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Luke Richardson was drafted 7th overall and played over 1400 games in the NHL. an unbelievable player for a very long time, if Jared Cowen gets to that level I will be ecstatic.

Do people actually think Cowen is going to be like Chara? You are all going to be very sadly mistaken. Its like no one around here has ever seen a big defensive D man before... There are tons in the NHL that were 4,5,6 guys which at this point is really the best they are going to get out of him.

I don't think he'll be like Chara, but mostly because I hate the idea of quantifying people by using direct, but ultimately inappropriate, comparisons. However, with that said, Chara was nothing to write home about and I bet if this forum were around with these very same people back in Chara's Islander days you would see a lot of the same things that are said about Cowen would be said about Chara.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah I'm thinking the home stretch is going to be determining if Cowen stays or not

 

[Sensinitis]

Chara is bigger more physical (consistently) and meaner than Cowen though.

 

[pm88]

Chara is bigger more physical (consistently) and meaner than Cowen though.

The thing is I really feel Cowen can be like that. he has all the tools to go out there and just impose his will on guys and be a real nasty guy to play against all the time. I'm not sure whats holding him back from taking the next step. I'm curious to see how much more patience management has with him..he's 24 now so who knows how many more years he has to prove something in this organization