Jared Cowen: Future top 4 dman or just a man bun aficionado? [MOD Warning: Post 393]

[Vesa Awesaka]

I havent liked Cowen's on ice performance since his rookie year and have been very critical of him since he came back in the shortened season. His play was not good enough or consistent enough to make me think he was anything more then a bottom pairing guy a best. I was particularly disappointed with how he was victimized in the Pittsburgh series more then any other player. Had he actually played up to a competent level i think we could have won a few more games.

This season i've seen little improvement in Cowen but whenever he's brought up there seems to be quite a few supporters who peg him as part of the future or say he's playing at a top 4 level..... So the question i ask is has Cowen played at a top 4 level this season? Simple yes or no. If you feel the need to elaborate or say hes part of the future post a comment but otherwise vote yes or no. Currently my feeling is that we should deal Cowen for the best return possible(ideally top 4 pmd.. unrealistic or a top 6 forward prospect..more realistic). I currently would have a hard time digesting another long term contract given to him over 3.1 mil a year based on how hes performed.

Not sure if the overall sens fanbase likes his play or just a vocal minority

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[Benjamin]

He's been up and down. Sometimes looks like a #4. Sometimes looks like a #5. Sometimes gets healthy scratched for a reason.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Cowen is crap. I'm getting fed up

 

[Xamar*]

he's Luke Schenn

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Patience is a virtue. He's better than Weircioch.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Patience is a virtue. He's better than Weircioch.

his physical tools give him the potential to be better than Wiercioch.

But everything except your subjective opinion tells us otherwise right now

 

[blahblah3]

No chance in hell. The guy has no hockey sense at all. He is forever chasing the play, at a slow place. And the worst part about it is that he doesn't seem too concerned.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Patience is a virtue. He's better than Weircioch.

Both have under performed in their role. Wier's advanced stats back up that this may just be a slump and he carries a shorter lower priced contract. I'd rather role with Wier myself. Ideally they are both replaced. Cowen with a legit shut down top 4 dman and Wier with a productive top 4 pmd

 

[WhiteLight*]

No chance in hell. The guy has no hockey sense at all. He is forever chasing the play, at a slow place. And the worst part about it is that he doesn't seem too concerned.

Agreed. Very disappointing

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

his physical tools give him the potential to be better than Wiercioch.

But everything except your subjective opinion tells us otherwise right now

Everything like what? Advanced statistics?

Weircioch has been in and out of the lineup and NHL for how many years now? If he was as good as you indicate he would have no problem being an NHL regular.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Everything like what? Advanced statistics?

Weircioch has been in and out of the lineup and NHL for how many years now? If he was as good as you indicate he would have no problem being an NHL regular.

Sometimes performance isn't everything. See Phillips still in the NHL

 

[BonkTastic]

He's got all the tools to be a very effective 2nd pairing LD. He has played like a legit 2nd pairing guy at times.

Cowen's problem is he's the single most inconsistent guy on the roster. The fix for that might come with age... or it might not. Defencemen take longer to get the "consistency" part of the game sorted out than most other positions (mostly because defencemen are required to be more consistently on their game than forwards, who have more freedom to have hot & cold stretches), so he's not a write-off or anything, but he needs to find that part of his game, soon.

 

[Super Cake]

If Cowen ate a daily dose of cheeseburgers, he would be a top 2 defenseman. Being that he doesn't, we will just have to settle with him being a top 4 defenseman.

 

[BonkTastic]

RE: Wiercioch vs Cowen

What stats exist right now that can effectively compare a defensive defenceman with an offensive one?



I ask because MAK says this:

But everything except your subjective opinion tells us otherwise right now

... and I'm wondering what "everything" is comprised of.

 

[Hale The Villain]

He's played like a decent top 4 guy for stretches, and he's played like a bottom pairing guy for stretches as well. I don't think anyone can deny though that he's shown flashes of the player he can become.

He'll eventually develop into a top 4 shutdown D in the mold of Braydon Coburn. Not sure if that we'll be with us though. Team seems content to scratch him for long periods of time for rather small issues in his game.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Sometimes performance isn't everything. See Phillips still in the NHL

So what is this touted offensive defencemen brought in to do other than to perform then?

Also, your use of Phillips as a comparison is quite the extreme.

 

[Boud]

RE: Wiercioch vs Cowen

What stats exist right now that can effectively compare a defensive defenceman with an offensive one?



I ask because MAK says this:


... and I'm wondering what "everything" is comprised of.

Agreed. The corsi and fenwick stats
Have to be looked at with context. I like how Murray talked about it a couple weeks ago saying Wiercioch has been the best defensemen on this team for years according to advanced stats, ever better or as good as Karlsson. Is Wiercioch better than Karlsson, Methot, Ceci? Of course not. There is more to hockey than what corsi takes into consideration. Wiercioch is still slow, very bad positioning and such a spaghetti out there. I'd take Cowen everyday before Wiercioch and I strongly believe he is better than Wiercioch. Wier has not been able to land a spot on the lineup for 3 years now. What makes a guy like Gryba,Ceci,Methot and Karlsson stick with the team and not Wiercioch if Wiercioch has better advanced stats?


If you can't see the flaws(many many flaws) in Wier's game you have to either be blind or rejecting the fact that he's not as good as stats tell you. Cowen on the other hand definitely has some things to work on like intelligence and his pinches but I like the progress I've seen. He's not where we'd like him to be but I see him as a Coburn type
Defensemen. He may not be a true top pairing guy but will be able to play some solid minutes down the road thanks to sound positioning and strenght to take people out of the front of the net. He can provide some offense but it's not flowing at this point, very raw and non confident when he pinches. However, Wiercioch has nothing that tells me that he'll be a regular defensemen in the NHL ever. You need positioning and strenght as a defensemen playing against top lines and he doesn't have that. Especially if he has no speed. Very bad combo. Only thing he has is a good first pass and sometime pinch but what good does that do when you cant come back in time .

 

[DrEasy]

Cowen before the hip injury was definitely top 4 material, with potential for even more. I mean, he was a beast: dynamic, hard-hitting, great shot, no hesitation to his game. Imposing. He's been much more muted since his comeback from injury. Don't know if it's a physical issue still or his confidence is shot. I'd opt for the latter because he does show flashes of early Cowen from time to time. Sitting him for long stretches can't help either.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Agreed. The corsi and fenwick stats
Have to be looked at with context. I like how Murray talked about it a couple weeks ago saying Wiercioch has been the best defensemen on this team for years according to advanced stats, ever better or as good as Karlsson. Is Wiercioch better than Karlsson, Methot, Ceci? Of course not. There is more to hockey than what corsi takes into consideration. Wiercioch is still slow, very bad positioning and such a spaghetti out there. I'd take Cowen everyday before Wiercioch and I strongly believe he is better than Wiercioch. Wier has not been able to land a spot on the lineup for 3 years now. What makes a guy like Gryba,Ceci,Methot and Karlsson stick with the team and not Wiercioch if Wiercioch has better advanced stats?


If you can't see the flaws(many many flaws) in Wier's game you have to either be blind or rejecting the fact that he's not as good as stats tell you. Cowen on the other hand definitely has some things to work on like intelligence and his pinches but I like the progress I've seen. He's not where we'd like him to be but I see him as a Coburn type
Defensemen. He may not be a true top pairing guy but will be able to play some solid minutes down the road thanks to sound positioning and strenght to take people out of the front of the net. He can provide some offense but it's not flowing at this point, very raw and non confident when he pinches. However, Wiercioch has nothing that tells me that he'll be a regular defensemen in the NHL ever. You need positioning and strenght as a defensemen playing against top lines and he doesn't have that. Especially if he has no speed. Very bad combo. Only thing he has is a good first pass and sometime pinch but what good does that do when you cant come back in time .

You are so unforgiving of wier's flaws yet you are quick to dismiss Cowen's or at least down play them. I think Cowen is worse then Wier and i'm not particular happy with Wier. I reject the notion that Cowen has good positioning. Guy can't read the play worth **** so how is suppose to know where to be? At least Wier had 23 points in 53 games. Cowen is suppose to be at the very least semi responsible defensively yet he constantly misreads plays and make the dumbest pinches imaginable.

Comparing Cowen to Wier is pointless though... they both arent good enough in their roles.


I look at Wier and see a guy you might be able to shelter and get some points out of. I look at Cowen and see a guy who still thinks hes in junior. Hasnt been able to catch up to the NHL game yet. I'm not holding out hope. He wouldnt be the first guy with all the tools and no tool box to fail. More often then not its the players that can't think the game at an NHL level that crash in burn in top 6 and top 4 roles then the players with physical limitation. Not saying Wier is some sort of hockey sense genius but at least he knows what he is and plays within his limitation.


The flashes are complete BS. Zibanejad showed flashes....Cowen has showed little to nothing. People want to see something thats not there. More often then not hes a liability. People exaggerate a big hit or a fight or a game where he thankfully doesnt absolutely suck but there are no flashes of a solid top 4/top pairing guy.

Slowly but surely it seems people are starting to see what Cowen is. Hopefully sens management figures it out before the rest of the league.

I dont ask for much from Cowen.... Just dont get exposed and dont consistently be the worst or second worst dman on the ice for the sens

The idea that Cowen isnt confident puzzles me too. Guy held out, said he didnt understand why he was being scratched and was confident enough to question his suspension. This compounded with his willingness to pinch aggressively and occasionally rush the puck makes me think he is somewhat confident. Low confidence players dont want the puck. Cowen seems to try to do to much with the puck.


I think Wier has better positioning then Cowen. When given the time to skate back in an organized fashion he can use his stick and reach well. Where he struggles is when he has to go into the corners or behind the net. He usually loses the battles and when the puck gets moved quickly he cant skate back into position fast enough

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Overall, Cowen has spent more time looking like a #4 guy than not. He made a lot of positive strides this year. Heck, there were a number of times here he even took the puck and made some nifty rushes up the ice, and distributed well in the offensive zone.

Look at the way Myers is blossoming this year....there's a very good chance we'll see Cowen impress the same way next year. Just have some patience. All that injury time screwed up his development, we need to remember that.

 

[Micklebot]

Right now, Cowen is a LD version of Gryba except unlike Gryba he gets asked to play in a a top 4 roll when in the lineup.

In fact, I think Gryba has been the better of the two.

Cowen seems to have higher highs and lower lows, which imo is a bad trait for a defensive D.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He's been inconsistent but he's been a fine top 4 dman when at his best.

I remain hopeful he'll put it all together but time is growing short, his upside remains considerable and that's why I'm more positive about Cowen then about Weircioch

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Cowen has been as unpredictable as Homer Simpson's wild mood swings. Sometimes he looks great, playing hard and physical defence, standing up at the line, good lateral mobility and clearing the net with authority. Then the very next game, he'll look like molasses, constantly chasing the puck around, focusing on the puck and not the man.

I'm willing to give him more time to figure it out. But I have a sense that his hockey IQ isn't up to snuff to be a great defender. I'd be happy if he could just become a consistent top 4, never mind what he was projected to be at the draft.

 

[starling]

I was preparing to eat crow a couple of months ago but it looks more and more like eventually I won't have to.

 

[Bileur]

You are so unforgiving of wier's flaws yet you are quick to dismiss Cowen's or at least down play them. I think Cowen is worse then Wier and i'm not particular happy with Wier. I reject the notion that Cowen has good positioning. Guy can't read the play worth **** so how is suppose to know where to be? At least Wier had 23 points in 53 games. Cowen is suppose to be at the very least semi responsible defensively yet he constantly misreads plays and make the dumbest pinches imaginable.

Comparing Cowen to Wier is pointless though... they both arent good enough in their roles.


I look at Wier and see a guy you might be able to shelter and get some points out of. I look at Cowen and see a guy who still thinks hes in junior. Hasnt been able to catch up to the NHL game yet. I'm not holding out hope. He wouldnt be the first guy with all the tools and no tool box to fail. More often then not its the players that can't think the game at an NHL level that crash in burn in top 6 and top 4 roles then the players with physical limitation. Not saying Wier is some sort of hockey sense genius but at least he knows what he is and plays within his limitation.


The flashes are complete BS. Zibanejad showed flashes....Cowen has showed little to nothing. People want to see something thats not there. More often then not hes a liability. People exaggerate a big hit or a fight or a game where he thankfully doesnt absolutely suck but there are no flashes of a solid top 4/top pairing guy.

Slowly but surely it seems people are starting to see what Cowen is. Hopefully sens management figures it out before the rest of the league.

I dont ask for much from Cowen.... Just dont get exposed and dont consistently be the worst or second worst dman on the ice for the sens

The idea that Cowen isnt confident puzzles me too. Guy held out, said he didnt understand why he was being scratched and was confident enough to question his suspension. This compounded with his willingness to pinch aggressively and occasionally rush the puck makes me think he is somewhat confident. Low confidence players dont want the puck. Cowen seems to try to do to much with the puck.


I think Wier has better positioning then Cowen. When given the time to skate back in an organized fashion he can use his stick and reach well. Where he struggles is when he has to go into the corners or behind the net. He usually loses the battles and when the puck gets moved quickly he cant skate back into position fast enough

The things you are saying about Boud's analysis of Wiercioch's game certainly also apply to your assessment of Cowen's game. Statements like "the flashes are complete BS" just show that you're not willing to really see what's there.

Cowen has played pretty well for stretches this season and terrible for other stretches. When he's on his game he's certainly a top 4 defenseman. His problem is consistency, like many young guys.

Truthfully, that second pair is in a pretty tough situation. We're trying to develop 2 of Ceci, Cowen and Wiercioch as a second pair guys while giving none of these guys a reliable veteran partner. When they hit rough patches it's harder for another young guy to shore up the mistake and help them stay focussed. We've seen Gonchar have that effect in the past and we still see Methot have that effect on Karlsson.

The idea now is to try to make the bad stretches shorter and increase the length of the good stretches between them.

I'd keep giving him time. I don't believe the potential return on a trade will be as high as the potential we might still be able to wring out of Cowen.

He's got all the tools to be a very effective 2nd pairing LD. He has played like a legit 2nd pairing guy at times.

Cowen's problem is he's the single most inconsistent guy on the roster. The fix for that might come with age... or it might not. Defencemen take longer to get the "consistency" part of the game sorted out than most other positions (mostly because defencemen are required to be more consistently on their game than forwards, who have more freedom to have hot & cold stretches), so he's not a write-off or anything, but he needs to find that part of his game, soon.

I think this is a fair assessment.