Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition

[Breakers]

Every time you think Virtanen has turned the corner he can never back it up.

 

[Josepho]

Every time you think Virtanen has turned the corner he can never back it up.

Depends on what you mean by "turn a corner".

Its doubtful that he's going to be a consistent bonafide top 6 forward, but he absolutely has turned a corner from the disaster that was last season.

But I'd probably classify him as a decent 3rd line winger and I can't help but think that when people say he looks "lost" or whatever they're still fixated on his draft position. I'm pretty sure multiple people have said/implied that Granlund is more useful for the team and to me that's just baffling.

He won't keep up this recent stretch of play, but he'll probably return to a similar stretch at some point down the season.

He's definitely worth keeping in the lineup even if he's streaky as hell.

 

[DL44]

Every time you think Virtanen has turned the corner he can never back it up.

I would describe Virtanen as being in the process of turning a corner.

But you are describing his inconsistency...

That Detroit game... man that looked like he had arrived didn't it. 8 shots, a goal, physical, changed the game... then he drops off. Then he has another game where he looks like the best player on the ice... then he drops off, ice time limited - sometimes due to his play, sometimes game situations... then he has another couple good ones, then drops off and isn't as involved...

The progress we've started to see is those good games slowly come more frequently. i.e. increasing his consistency.

The 10 minute ranger game was just s few games ago so still is a bit of a roller coaster ride, but the dips are getting smaller...

 

[VanJack]

Every time you think Virtanen has turned the corner he can never back it up.

Yes, that's what's been so frustrating so far.....you see glimpses of what he could be and the impact he could have, but then it disappears again.....but this recent stretch of games is his best as a Canuck by a country mile......and Green finally seems to he trusting him late in games and in OT....and he has something you can't teach....world-class skating speed....starting to feel a lot better about him as a 6th overall pick.

 

[GetFocht]

I think Virtanen will carve out a 30-40 point, fast, physical 3rd line winger. He is still very valuable to any team's bottom six and is something that is needed in the playoffs.

 

[Zippgunn]

Well his goal was a fluke (shot it top corner but it went 5 hole) and his assist was a total schmozzle (Leipsic make a silk purse out of a sow's ear) but even so he had what was probably his best game this year. Leipsic made that line work and Archie should have been second star IMHO but you know how it goes when it comes to hype. Ironic that a throwaway 4th liner can invigorate an 8th overall pick isn't it? Still there IS hope...

 

[Zombotron]

6th overall. Pouliot was the 8th overall.

 

[Canucks1096]

He’s got a long way to go but to say he’s the same player offensively is just flat out wrong

When we are talking about offensively. We need to talk about numbers. Rookie year 13 P in 55 games. This year 17 P in 60 games. Considering the fact that scoring is up this year he hasn't really improved offensively.

When your numbers don't go up, Can you justify saying he improved offensively?

Sure he is involve in the play more. But what he is doing. Is still not enough to make his numbers go up

You are telling people are flat out wrong. But you don't have anything prove that they are wrong.

 

[M2Beezy]

Actually had a good game last night if he plays like that every night got no problem penciling him into our top 9 from now on

 

[lawrence]

Since opposing d-men now know he's got serious speed to the outside, he needs to learn how to work that speed to his advantage. Work a start and stop to create space between him and the defender to wait for a trailer to fly in or he can cut to the inside when he thinks a defender is cheating too much to the outside. That's probably the next development in his offensive game.

he can pick his spots too. If he recognizes a dman that is older or slower or that's been out for a while he can then take advantage of that and burn em good.

 

[Askel]

Hope? some people sure... i think Hansen is his floor.

Prime Hansen was a great player, from 2011-2016 he was an elite even strength player who pushed the pace of the game. Was elite defensively a great PK , who could fit on any line (played on the first line for stretches) and was gritty and not afraid to stand up for teammates. We might view prime Hansen differently.

I don't think Virtanen is there yet, if he becomes that player Im very happy, but Virtanen´s floor is not Prime Hansen, Virtanens floor is the guy he is now who doest have the head for the game who gets by on great skating and hard work.

Virtanen has improved this season and I hope he continues to do so, lets hope he can develop his defensive game even more and be a PK, his speed would be a great asset there IMO.

 

[Derp Kassian]

When we are talking about offensively. We need to talk about numbers. Rookie year 13 P in 55 games. This year 17 P in 60 games. Considering the fact that scoring is up this year he hasn't really improved offensively.

When your numbers don't go up, Can you justify saying he improved offensively?

Sure he is involve in the play more. But what he is doing. Is still not enough to make his numbers go up

You are telling people are flat out wrong. But you don't have anything prove that they are wrong.

And has he been put into situations to exceed offensively? Green just put him on the top line right now. Cup of coffee with the twins here or there but that isn't exactly the best situation anymore. I find it weird that Leipsic walked into cushy surroundings and it took Jake almost 4 months when the season has been lost for 2

 

[bossram]

Ehh, prime Hansen was a very good player. Top-six calibre at evens, strong defensive play and top PKer. JV's not even close on that.

I think Jake settles out as a middling Booth-Torres hybrid, as I maintained since we drafted him. Can show flashes of that net drive, big hits, good in the neutral zone (in Booth's case) but just doesn't have the hockey IQ to really come out as more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener player.

 

[F A N]

I think Jake settles out as a middling Booth-Torres hybrid, as I maintained since we drafted him. Can show flashes of that net drive, big hits, good in the neutral zone (in Booth's case) but just doesn't have the hockey IQ to really come out as more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener player.

David Booth was very effective prior to his concussion(s). Torres was not held back by his hockey IQ.

 

[DL44]

Prime Hansen was a great player, from 2011-2016 he was an elite even strength player who pushed the pace of the game. Was elite defensively a great PK , who could fit on any line (played on the first line for stretches) and was gritty and not afraid to stand up for teammates. We might view prime Hansen differently.

I don't think Virtanen is there yet, if he becomes that player Im very happy, but Virtanen´s floor is not Prime Hansen, Virtanens floor is the guy he is now who doest have the head for the game who gets by on great skating and hard work.

Virtanen has improved this season and I hope he continues to do so, lets hope he can develop his defensive game even more and be a PK, his speed would be a great asset there IMO.

Unless you think its possible Virtanen has peaked after 120 games at the age of 21... then ok... this is his floor. I dont share that opinion.

Looking ahead 4-5 yrs...during his peak yrs, at absolute worst i think hes going as good as peak Hansen.

Production - easily. Hansen had one great productive offensive season where you dont need to add up his ice time subract his special teams ice time then divide it by 60 then take that number and divide into his goal or point totals to try to explain why he was more than a 1 one time 20 g scorer offensively.

Defensively, Virtanen's been pushing the play the right direction since he entered the league. And getting better. Next step become our Grabner on the PK.

Consider developmental curves and amount of runway left. Virtanen is way ahead at the same in their careers.

Achieving Hansen-type peak performance seems like a forgone conclusion. my expectations for his prime are higher than that.

End of day though... at least Virtanen doesnt have a high bar to achieve to impress and make some people happy.

 

[Intangibos]

Unless you think its possible Virtanen has peaked after 120 games at the age of 21... then ok... this is his floor. I dont share that opinion.

Lots of players peak around now. Lots of drafted players are at their peak and never manage to take any step up from junior hockey at all.

Looking ahead 4-5 yrs...during his peak yrs, at absolute worst i think hes going as good as peak Hansen.

Production - easily. Hansen had one great productive offensive season where you dont need to add up his ice time subract his special teams ice time then divide it by 60 then take that number and divide into his goal or point totals to try to explain why he was more than a 1 one time 20 g scorer offensively.

Defensively, Virtanen's been pushing the play the right direction since he entered the league. And getting better. Next step become our Grabner on the PK.

Hansen was an elite 3rd liner. Burrows tier defensively and could chip in offensively. Hansen has shown more on both sides of the puck than Virtanen has so far.

Consider developmental curves and amount of runway left. Virtanen is way ahead at the same in their careers.

This isn't really how things work. Hansen's first full season was when he was, I think, 23 and scored 9G/20A in a bottom 6 role. In reality he had 2 "full" seasons before that that were I guess shortened by injury with some conditioning stints in Manitoba. He outperformed Virtanen offensively at the same age and is a solid player defensively.

Not only that but players progress at different rates. Virtanen has the potential to be far far better than Hansen, but you can't just expect linear development from players. Garrison wasn't a full time NHLer until like 25 or 26, but he's far better than a number of defensive prospects are every going to be even if they are ahead of where he was at the same age.

Achieving Hansen-type peak performance seems like a forgone conclusion. my expectations for his prime are higher than that.

End of day though... at least Virtanen doesnt have a high bar to achieve to impress and make some people happy.

Both parts of this are wrong. Hansen-type performance would be very good, but it's certainly not a forgone conclusion. He also does have a very high ceiling, but it gets less and less likely he reaches it every bad month of the season.

Also, a Hansen type player really isn't what we want Virtanen to be. He has far better hands and shot that Hansen ever had, but doesn't have the hockey IQ Hansen did either. I don't think they're even remotely comparable other than they're both mid-6 (if Virtanen continues to improve) players who can skate fast.

 

[VC]

Virtanen will never have Hansen's defensive/pk game. The only similarity I see with them is as a speedy forechecker that can chip in some goals. Hansen has the better defensive game and Virtanen the better shot.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

6th overall. Pouliot was the 8th overall.

To add on this
Gud Branson was 3rd overall
People who still can’t let go the thought of “Virtanen needs to be a top 6 forward” because of his drated position, they need to give themselves a head shake

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Lots of players peak around now. Lots of drafted players are at their peak and never manage to take any step up from junior hockey at all.



Hansen was an elite 3rd liner. Burrows tier defensively and could chip in offensively. Hansen has shown more on both sides of the puck than Virtanen has so far.



This isn't really how things work. Hansen's first full season was when he was, I think, 23 and scored 9G/20A in a bottom 6 role. In reality he had 2 "full" seasons before that that were I guess shortened by injury with some conditioning stints in Manitoba. He outperformed Virtanen offensively at the same age and is a solid player defensively.

Not only that but players progress at different rates. Virtanen has the potential to be far far better than Hansen, but you can't just expect linear development from players. Garrison wasn't a full time NHLer until like 25 or 26, but he's far better than a number of defensive prospects are every going to be even if they are ahead of where he was at the same age.



Both parts of this are wrong. Hansen-type performance would be very good, but it's certainly not a forgone conclusion. He also does have a very high ceiling, but it gets less and less likely he reaches it every bad month of the season.

Also, a Hansen type player really isn't what we want Virtanen to be. He has far better hands and shot that Hansen ever had, but doesn't have the hockey IQ Hansen did either. I don't think they're even remotely comparable other than they're both mid-6 (if Virtanen continues to improve) players who can skate fast.

To be fair
Virtanen’s shot is hard but with bad accuracy.l, so yes he has better hands than Hansen, but no his shot isn’t really better than Hansen

 

[rune74]

Gud Branson was 3rd overall
People who still can’t let go the thought of “Virtanen needs to be a top 6 forward” because of his drated position, they need to give themselves a head shake

What if we would like him to be? Shake our heads?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

What if we would like him to be? Shake our heads?

You can want him to be m
But the reality is, the possibility of getting lower and lower.
Talented top 6 forward usually show their offence early in their career

 

[rune74]

You can want him to be m
But the reality is, the possibility of getting lower and lower.
Talented top 6 forward usually show their offence early in their career

I disagree it was already really low, recent performance is making more likely then what we felt at the start of the year.

He is 21 still. He is showing progression. This is what we should all want.

 

[bossram]

David Booth was very effective prior to his concussion(s). Torres was not held back by his hockey IQ.

Booth was good pre-concussion. He had that one 60 point season, but was more a 20-20 player. Kinda what I see JV's top-end range being, considering he is also held back by hockey IQ like Booth. They both have that great neutral zone skating ability and net drive (occasionally), but really just lack offensive awareness. That still makes a useful player, just not as good as we'd hope he'd be.

The Torres comparison is more just in terms of physicality.

 

[iceburg]

I expect that he will end up (at peak) bouncing between the 2nd and 3rd lines depending on match-ups, linemates etc. I agree, a solid 20-20 player is what we should hope for. That's not to say that, with the ideal circumstances, he couldn't get closer to 30 goals, but it shouldn't be the expectation. Just like Kesler shouldn't be considered a 40 goal scorer just because he did it one year when in no other year did he top 26 goals.

 

[DL44]

So much wrong with this.

Lots of players peak around now. Lots of drafted players are at their peak and never manage to take any step up from junior hockey at all.

You're mistaking their hockey careers peaking (level of hockey achieved) vs the player's actual ability peaking. There's a significant difference.

Hansen was an elite 3rd liner. Burrows tier defensively and could chip in offensively. Hansen has shown more on both sides of the puck than Virtanen has so far.

That's quite the general statement. And a liberal use of 'elite'.
I don't think we ever saw Hansen take over and change the game over the course of his shifts like Virtanen did in the Detroit game. Or even last game.. They are physically different types of players. Virtanen is trending towards being more than being a 3rd liner.
"Hansen has shown more on both sides of the puck than Virtanen has so far" is also kinda irrelevant since we're talking about projecting to Virtanen's peak. Hansen at the same age didn't show anything comparable to what Virtanen has been capable at so far.

This isn't really how things work. Hansen's first full season was when he was, I think, 23 and scored 9G/20A in a bottom 6 role. In reality he had 2 "full" seasons before that that were I guess shortened by injury with some conditioning stints in Manitoba. He outperformed Virtanen offensively at the same age and is a solid player defensively.

Not only that but players progress at different rates. Virtanen has the potential to be far far better than Hansen, but you can't just expect linear development from players. Garrison wasn't a full time NHLer until like 25 or 26, but he's far better than a number of defensive prospects are every going to be even if they are ahead of where he was at the same age.

I definitely don't expect linear. Virtanen's career so far has been anything but linear.

Both parts of this are wrong. Hansen-type performance would be very good, but it's certainly not a forgone conclusion. He also does have a very high ceiling, but it gets less and less likely he reaches it every bad month of the season.

How can my opinion be wrong? It's an opinion. Go ahead and disagree with it. But it's isn't wrong. I think it IS a foregone conclusion.

Also, a Hansen type player really isn't what we want Virtanen to be. He has far better hands and shot that Hansen ever had, but doesn't have the hockey IQ Hansen did either. I don't think they're even remotely comparable other than they're both mid-6 (if Virtanen continues to improve) players who can skate fast.

I think you are misremembering the exact type of player Hansen was prior to his final two seasons with the Canucks. Defensively - very good effort player, physically limited, PK capable. - Offensively -One of the more infuriating lack of hands/lack of finish/skate all over-accomplish little type players. Was not a great fan till he started producing.

Floor.