Dab
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Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition
- Thread starter Bleach Clean
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[QUOTE="personally I don't think he will be a top 6 player, although Canuck fans have a history of being wrong "player ends up being better then initial projection" would love to see it happen.[/QUOTE]
My view of Virtanen in a top 6 role isnt to be "the driver of offense", but rather be a very important cog in "facilitating offense" - like Burrows. He will help his linemates score throught the tools he brings, forechecking, turnovers, physical play, and also be the beneficiary of playing with good players and that will help his stats but he will play a valuable role imho.
You don't score 40 goals in junior (the way he did) without offensive hockey IQ. We've seen him snipe shots, use his speed to wheel around NHL dmen. He has to work on his hands, and puck handling, and adding some nuance to his offensive game. But his shot alone is capable of getting him 20 goals. He certainly has better hands than Hansen or Burrows ever did.
Again, as a top 6 player he will never be the 'driver' but his tools will help the other linemates have room and time, so they can utilize their offensive game, whether that be on a line with Bo and Boeser, on the off wing, or Peterson and Dhalen, he can fit in very nicely.
My view of Virtanen in a top 6 role isnt to be "the driver of offense", but rather be a very important cog in "facilitating offense" - like Burrows. He will help his linemates score throught the tools he brings, forechecking, turnovers, physical play, and also be the beneficiary of playing with good players and that will help his stats but he will play a valuable role imho.
You don't score 40 goals in junior (the way he did) without offensive hockey IQ. We've seen him snipe shots, use his speed to wheel around NHL dmen. He has to work on his hands, and puck handling, and adding some nuance to his offensive game. But his shot alone is capable of getting him 20 goals. He certainly has better hands than Hansen or Burrows ever did.
Again, as a top 6 player he will never be the 'driver' but his tools will help the other linemates have room and time, so they can utilize their offensive game, whether that be on a line with Bo and Boeser, on the off wing, or Peterson and Dhalen, he can fit in very nicely.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
so you're suggesting that video implies he DOESN'T have good hands? LOL WHAT?!!!!
Omg man- you try and bash the kid and then show me a video of goals where all he's doing is sniping LOL
hahahaahhaha
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Why do I keep trying to engage you.
Look at the part I bolded in your post for a hint of what Im talking about...
Dishonest about what? LMAO -what does that even mean? Dishonest about him having hands? LOL
1. to score 40 goals at the major junior level you need offensive hockey IQ -does it mean you'll score 40 in the NHL no, but you need high offensive awareness
2. To put yourself in the right positions offensively to score 40 goals you need a high hockey IQ
3. To know when to release the puck to beat a goalie you need a high hockey IQ
4. To snipe like he does, you need to know where the holes are on a goalie, how to move him to open up those holes, when to release the puck etc, which rqire a high hockey IQ
It is clear you've never laced them up son. LOL, Junior goalies don't let a shot in because its hard lol...omg
DL44
Status quo
I wonder what a high IQ winger's goal reel looks like.
Maybe Kane, Kane, Wheeler, Ov, Boeser, Kessel, Gaudreau, etc...
When people talk about Virtanen's lack of IQ, they are talking about playmaking aspect... not how he scores goals..
That poster who posted about the Virtanen goal scoring video didn t prove what he thought he was proving.
Maybe Kane, Kane, Wheeler, Ov, Boeser, Kessel, Gaudreau, etc...
When people talk about Virtanen's lack of IQ, they are talking about playmaking aspect... not how he scores goals..
That poster who posted about the Virtanen goal scoring video didn t prove what he thought he was proving.
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maybe he skates up the ice backwards, goes through all five guys, with the puck on his blade like its a lacrosse stick?
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Already with the ad hominem fallacies. Neat.
I like how you didn't reply to the point that you didn't know how he scored his goals in the WHL.
Im going to take a wild guess and say you are just assuming these things you are saying with no stats or even "eye test" to back it up.
Jake was a very physically mature player at a young age and a volume shooter who did 1 thing well;
Skate down the offwing with speed and beat the defender with his speed / strength against inferior competition in the WHL, or take a low% shot from the perimeter.
That is the same play he defaults to in the NHL with the puck. Obviously it doesn't produce at this level (shooting at ~7%, 17 goals in 140 games).
Goalies are better so the low% shot rarely goes in and the defenders are faster and stronger so he doesn't have enough of an advantage (he is big and fast, even when compared to NHL competition).
(Stop typing "hahahah" "LOL" "son" etc. they make it really hard to take any of your points seriously. Unless your goal isn't to discuss but to just try to annoy people of course.)
You don't see the difference between the way Virtanen scored his goals vs Boeser, Kessel, Ovie etc?
what ad hominem fallacies are those? it's clear you've never played competitive hockey son
anyone who's played competitively knows it's not easy to score 40 goals at the major junior level sorry
i'm right
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
We are not talking about what is hard or what is easy in major junior.
We are talking about what translates from jr to pro hockey.
You are making this way too easy.
Who here is saying Virtanen has the same level of offensive ability as a kid who was on pace for 40 in his rookie year, the best scoring in the last 12 years in the NHL (and one of the greatest goal scorers ever) and a perrenial 35 goal man?
Please don't shift the argument, the point was you said Jake didn't have a high hockey IQ. You then post a video that shows he does lol.
Now the argument is he's not a 40 goal man or doesn't score the way you think he should? Ok, yes we know, he only had like 8 goals last year. He still needs time and he probably wont ever be a 40 goal man.
Do you have to be a 40 goal man to have a high hockey IQ? what if you only get 30? no iq? is that the binary inflection point for team troll Jake?
40 = High hockey IQ
<40 No hockey IQ -
Ok cool beans.
I didn't respond to the first quote because in all honesty I have no idea what you are trying to say with what I had said.
Button's Mock draft had the Canucks taking him? Wonder why he had that idea...
His personal ranking are what I was obviously talking about.
Yes it was easy to prove your case wrong when you provided video evidence of Jake having a high offensive hockey IQ given how he scored his goals in junior. You defeated your own argument lol. So it was too easy you're correct
thanks for posting it.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Im guessing you didn't even watch the video if this is the evaluation you took from it.
Or maybe you just don't know what to look for? No shame in that.
Yes 40 goals in major junior requires a high hockey IQ, that is correct. See ya bro. have a nice life
mossey3535
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Tons of guys have scored tons of goals in major junior and then didn't see it translate in the AHL, let alone the NHL.
Jake does not have high hockey IQ. I don't know what in his NHL play would lead you to believe that he has high HIQ for the NHL level.
Early in the year, he didn't go to the net. Hell you can say "early in his career" and it would be correct.
He started it a little, but it took like 15 games to start doing it consistently.
When he finally started doing it regularly, he started overdoing it to the point where he was losing possession. He wasn't using his linemates. When he did get to the net he wasn't making the extra play that most goal scorers make to get those garbage goals. He was just happy to put it into the goalie's pads. He didn't understand when he had time and space and often made poor decisions.
It basically took him half a season to figure out he should drive the net, and when he did figure that out, the natural plays I expect a goalscorer to make were not coming. That means he has to figure that out - which to me means his hockey IQ isn't high.
Most of the stars in the NHL are excellent instinctual players. The very best supplement that with a lot of video analysis and listening to their coaches. From what I see, Jake has to build up those patterns from scratch.
Again, I am cheering for Jakey. I like the guy and obviously the Canucks will benefit hugely if he actually develops. But I don't understand how anyone could watch him in the time he's been in the league and said "wow, high hockey IQ".
Jake does not have high hockey IQ. I don't know what in his NHL play would lead you to believe that he has high HIQ for the NHL level.
Early in the year, he didn't go to the net. Hell you can say "early in his career" and it would be correct.
He started it a little, but it took like 15 games to start doing it consistently.
When he finally started doing it regularly, he started overdoing it to the point where he was losing possession. He wasn't using his linemates. When he did get to the net he wasn't making the extra play that most goal scorers make to get those garbage goals. He was just happy to put it into the goalie's pads. He didn't understand when he had time and space and often made poor decisions.
It basically took him half a season to figure out he should drive the net, and when he did figure that out, the natural plays I expect a goalscorer to make were not coming. That means he has to figure that out - which to me means his hockey IQ isn't high.
Most of the stars in the NHL are excellent instinctual players. The very best supplement that with a lot of video analysis and listening to their coaches. From what I see, Jake has to build up those patterns from scratch.
Again, I am cheering for Jakey. I like the guy and obviously the Canucks will benefit hugely if he actually develops. But I don't understand how anyone could watch him in the time he's been in the league and said "wow, high hockey IQ".
please show me where i said that comment i have bolded
please don't put words in people's mouths. making up an argment that does not exist, to try and create a defense for your false claims is disingenuous. There is no such argument I have made.
It seems you don't understand the point. It appears by deduction, you believe, that if I say Jake scored 40 in the WHL and that I believe that takes a high hockey IQ, it means somehow he will automatically score 40 in the NHL? Please show me how may players in major junior scored 40+ and were able to fully translate that level of scoring to the NHL. such an argument shows a lack of base knowlege of the game.
Clearly the NHL is a much tougher league. You have the best of the best, so 100% translation is not common. That being said, just because you as a player don't score at the same pace, it doesn't follow that you don't have a high hockey IQ, it means that the level of competition is higher.
It still takes a high hockey IQ to score 40 at the juior level. Your argument is not grounded in basic logic.
try scoring 40 goals in major junior without it. ridiculous. There is a transition period for most players you know, its called development?? And no that does not mean I am saying he'll score 40 in the NHL, but he has a high enough hockey IQ to score 40 in junior so that means he has talent.
beating a goalie at that level is not just skating real fast and having a hard shot man, you have to know how to get to the right spots, how to release, when to release, how to bet defenders, how to use your positioning and your offensive assets to your advantage and take advantage of defenders and goalies weaknesses = hockey iq
The issue is, when you get to the NHL, things are faster, players are better, you have to learn to adjust. And that's where he is now. Learning to adjust his game. Not every player adjusts as fast as McDavid.
How long did Bo take to adjust? hmmm does he have a low hockey IQ? Baer?
mossey3535
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Look I understand what you're trying to say. But look at Boeser. That guy, from the start, does everything right. His inherent IQ is very high.
Even Baertschi - it also took him awhile (about 1.5 seasons) to figure out that he can't be successful if he plays a perimeter game. But once he embraced getting pummeled to make plays, he made skill plays. Once he was in the right place, he could make the little nuanced plays that lead to scoring or helping out other guys on his line.
Jake often has no idea where to be on the ice. I don't know what to say to you if you haven't seen multiple instances of that from him. And we're not talking just on the defensive end, where he has had to learn a lot of lessons. He often doesn't know where to be, PERIOD.
Guys just get away with stuff in junior. If they are just bigger and/or faster, no they don't need high IQ to score a lot of goals. Or at least not the IQ that will let them succeed in the AHL! Let alone the NHL! And for Jake, the cold hard reality is that his IQ is being tested in THE LEAGUE.
But if he had the IQ you claim in junior, we would be seeing less cluelessness from him at this level. We would have seen more production from him in the AHL, where you can also get away with a lot of bad habits. But we're not.
I really do hope he turns it all around. But it's going to be a monumental effort.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
You forgot to mention you are now talking about Jake Virtanen and 40 goals in the NHL not the 40 goals you brought up earlier that actually has scored in the WHL.
Sorry, I legitimately have trouble following your train of thought.
The last 20 games of the season Jake looked like the same Jake in that Junior video, other than he was snakebitten around the net. I don't assume a player has no hockey IQ (when he struggles early in his career) given my experience in the NCAA and europe, and knowing what it takes to score at that level (and junior).
He knows how to score. He has a high hockey IQ (is it like Boeser's or Petterson's no, but to say he doesn't have strong hockey iq is absurd, there are gradients), he was immature and not ready to handle what it took mentally day to day to be a pro, and had to learn to be defensively responsible. I have seen many young players experience what he did, confusion because he's told too many things, and is overloaded.
Result, you start 'thinking the game' rather than playing your game, and letting it come to you. Green had to force feed this into him because he was immature professionally. Not all kids are as mature as Bo.
That being said, if you saw the last 20 games, the fact Green gave him PK, PP, OT time that should tell you what he thought of Jakes progression, and what did we then see with a little confidence? Flashes of why he was drafted, a kid driving the net, creating turovers, creating odd man chances, breakaways, the way he did in junior.
Alot of people on this site are going to pretend they never bashed this kid in 2 years. I am sure we're going to see alot of 'revisionist' history from some of team troll jake at that time.
I appreciate your skepticism, your view is honest and well articulated, and a fair concern and thankfully not part of the troll Jake brigade.
That being said, I have said this prior as well, next season is a big one for him. He needs to take the next step professionally, and that is earning the trust of Green as a key player. Once he gets that, he gets consistent ice. Once he gets consistent ice, he gets more confidence, once he gets more confidence, you will see more of the Hockey IQ come out. That's how it works, and that's coming from someoe who's played the game.
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mossey3535
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Bo has almost outscored Jake's CAREER NUMBERS in his ROOKIE season, which wasn't even a full season. Also Bo has known where to be on the ice on both ends since I watched him at his first prospects camp. So that isn't a particularly good example for your argument here.
Hell, Gaunce has more hockey sense than Jake. Which is sad because he doesn't have a tenth of the tools Jake has.
The problem with your argument is that almost every junior player is a high scorer. Then the vast majority of those scorers cannot score in minor pro. Then the vast majority of those who score in minor pro can't score in the NHL.
Of course you can't just take a dude off the street and have him score 40 goals in major junior. But year after year you see an overager explode for a ton of goals. Why? Because he is just bigger and more experienced that half the league.
If you watch the 2014 draft again. They ranked the players out of 5 on their skating, shot and hockey IQ and a few more skillset as well. His hockey IQ was ranked 3 out of 5. It's one of the lowest out of all the 1st round picks He was also was of top goal scorer in the draft as well. So Yes without a high hockey IQ you can still score a lot of goals in Junior. You can get by in Junior if you have some skill and are faster and bigger than most of the player. Nhl is completely different animal.
Anytime Virtanen is facing higher level competition regardless if it is in the wjc/AHL/Nhl. He has failed to produce. Why did he failed to produce? A higher level of hockey you can't just get by with speed an size. You need to think the game at a higher level. That's why Virtanen in every level of hockey that higher than the chl failed to produce.
The Canucks did send Virtanen down to the AHL last season to work on his all around game. Reason for that is because he doesn't process the game well enough.
All the Virtanen fans only see his sexy skating. But for some reason a lot of you are not seeing all the mistakes he makes on the ice. Why does he makes so many mistakes because he doesn't process the game well enough.
A few example. Dallas game horrible pass that led to a shorthanded goal. Col game gives the puck a way at center ice and col scores the game winning goal.
Simple question. Do you see a lot of mistake Virtanen makes? Example like give aways, don't know where to go on the ice. Yes or No? You can't just see what you want to see.
perhaps you're having a tough time understanding since I never said half of the things you are making up.
Jake has never scored 40 goals in he NHL so I am not sure how you would assume I am suggesting or even implying he scored 40 goals in the NHL since we all know he has not.
SMH
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