easton122 said:NHL success turns into management success
What the hell are you talkin about? lol
Jack Johnson or Jay Bouwmeester?
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What the hell are you talkin about? lol
easton122
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Sammy said:
Any World Championship played on bigger ice shouldn't really matter (World Championships) and JBO played on an all-star team for the World Cup so all he had to do was be there and not screw up to garner praise.
The funny thing is Martin is 2 years older than JBO just like JBO is 2 years older than Jack Johnson. Martin has shown more at the NHL stage just like JBO has shown more at the NHL stage than Johnson. JBO is not definitely or way better than Johnson. He has had the opportunity to play on a team that wouldn't dare scratch him no matter what he did and now he has played on a team destined for the AHL championship but brought nothing to the table to help the team.
JBO = Being on the right teams at the right time. He's there but doesn't do too much and he gets a helluva lot of praise for it too...
easton122
Registered User
Wally112pac said:What the hell are you talkin about? lol
Since when is Gretzky the hockey god of picking a team?
Lauser3 said:
2 of the worst points ever on hockeys future.
You're goin extremely low when you say 8 of his points were secondary assists.
So were about a quater of the points scored in the NHL in 03-04. lol. EVERY PLAYER GETS SECONDARY ASSISTS!
The fact is he played on Team Canada. When Jovo (i think it was Jovo) got healthy he didn't lose his spot becasue he was playin so well.
You named some forwards that were checkers for Canada much like Draper and Zamuner were. Name some defenseman.
Pitkanen has outshined Jbo? lol.
Pitkanen's time on ice/game 03-04 16:35
Jbo's time on ice/game 03-04 23:02
Jbo has earned more ice time so he must be better?
Pitkanen was a HEALTHY scratch for Finland in the World Cup. Jbo played for Canada even when defenseman got healthy.
Take away the AHL. That is AHL points. Who gives a crap. I compare NHL points. That's all that matters to me.
David Ling scored 88 AHL points in 80 games this year after scoring 3 NHL points in 50 games with the Jackets in 03-04. I hope that speaks for itself.
easton122 said:
Gretzky, Hitchcock, Quinn, Martin, etc.
I trust their judgement over anyone's in the world.
Wally112pac said:
Ummm.. You really don't watch a lot of hockey do you? Seriously, you lol at that is not because it's funny.
Put JBo on the Flyers and he's ice time would be no better.
Yeah, and a player that's clearly been better then him and could play for Canada wasn't on the team. JBo was only on Team Canada for the future. They have the luxury of being able to put him on the team and just letting him play. Finland didn't do that.
So the AHL doesn't matter but Team Canada does?
So JBo should have scored 1000 points? Is that your point?
Liquidrage said:Ummm.. You really don't watch a lot of hockey do you? Seriously, you lol at that is not because it's funny.
Put JBo on the Flyers and he's ice time would be no better.
Yeah, and a player that's clearly been better then him and could play for Canada wasn't on the team. JBo was only on Team Canada for the future. They have the luxury of being able to put him on the team and just letting him play. Finland didn't do that.
So the AHL doesn't matter but Team Canada does?
So JBo should have scored 1000 points? Is that your point?
No, i do watch a lot of Hockey. I don't go by stats when i say Pitkanen hasn't outshined Jbo.
"Put JBo on the Flyers and he's ice time would be no better."
Correct. I'm tryin to see things logically.
Flyers = strong defence
Panthers = weak defence
Wally112pac said:
Ling was never projected to be a strong NHLer. Spezza is projected as a NHLer, Vanek is projected as an NHLer and both had very good seasons. In comparison, Jay-Bo is garnered as a top, elite #1 defenseman. Yet he never showed a strong glimpse of it playing in a league where, in all due respect, he should have dominated if he is indeed is going to be a force in the NHL.
just to be annoying...if you extrapolate Fedor Tyutin's PPG average in his rookie NHL season out to a full season, he'd match what bouwmeester put up in the NHL (about 22 points for Tyutin). not to mention his AHL totals are about the same and his juniors career matches up well in terms of point totals (though Tyutin only played 1 year and in a different league)
considering Bouwmeester theoretically should be a lot better than Tyutin, especially since he always seemed to be billed as an offensive defenseman, his offensive production thus far has been quite dissapointing compared to a guy who was never billed as an offensive defenseman and who is approx. the same age. (though actually bouwmeesters PPG average was better in his second year considering # of games played and points scored, it's still relatively close)
i don't mean to turn this into some kind of conversation as to who is better or anything like that...in my mind bouwmeester *should* be better and i wouldn't argue with anyone who would take him over tyutin obviously...just trying to highlight a little bit the fact that bouwmeester doesn't seem to be living up to the hype yet and i think he'll be considered a bit of a dissapointment if he doesn't improve here eventually...being nonphysical and not putting up points isn't a great way to make your mark as a NHL defenseman
considering Bouwmeester theoretically should be a lot better than Tyutin, especially since he always seemed to be billed as an offensive defenseman, his offensive production thus far has been quite dissapointing compared to a guy who was never billed as an offensive defenseman and who is approx. the same age. (though actually bouwmeesters PPG average was better in his second year considering # of games played and points scored, it's still relatively close)
i don't mean to turn this into some kind of conversation as to who is better or anything like that...in my mind bouwmeester *should* be better and i wouldn't argue with anyone who would take him over tyutin obviously...just trying to highlight a little bit the fact that bouwmeester doesn't seem to be living up to the hype yet and i think he'll be considered a bit of a dissapointment if he doesn't improve here eventually...being nonphysical and not putting up points isn't a great way to make your mark as a NHL defenseman
This whole discussion is completely ridiculous, and another example of how people disregard the top prospects of a few years past to hop on the current bandwagon.
Team Canada obviously feels he is one of their top twelve or they would not have selected him. This is irrefutable evidence of how highly some of the most respected people in hockey view this player. And its not as if he was chosen by a nation that is lacking in defence. The Canadian national team has easily the most impressive defensive depth of any nation. There was NO RULE which stated that teams needed to take players under 22. And there is no immediate need for Canada to start playing inferior players just because of their age. It's not as if Pronger, Blake, Foote, Niedermayer, etc are on their deathbed. It's an aging four guys, but its still a hell of a lot better than any other nation can boast as its top four. Yes, it's true, he was an injury replacement, and that's why I did not claim he was a top eight defender. In reality, I could have fairly said he's top ten, but I left some room for argument's sake. In terms of his NHL point production, and I say this with the backing of a pretty formidable Canadian management team (I hear Pat Quinn, Kevin Lowe, Steve Tambellini, Kevin Hitchcock, etc, etc, know a little bit about hockey), apparently this isn't indicative of his offensive abilities. Let's keep in mind Florida had one of the most anemic offences in the NHL.
But if you want to nitpick, let's compare how they did as youths. Jay Bouwmeester was on Canada's WJC team from the age of 16. Sixteen. In an international under-20 tournament. That seems moderately impressive to me. And when he was older, he was pretty damn good in those tournaments. How was Jack Johnson last time around? Oh wait, he was cut from a team that boasted a, mostly, embarassingly bad defensive unit.
Of course, yes, there are some other issues and extenuating circumstances, but if we're going to ignore other factors, like a few seem to, let's do the same with all parties.
So I stand by my statement and see absolutely no reason why it is unfair. If Jack Johnson ever develops into the calibre of defenceman that will make a Team Canada at a major international event, I would be very happy if I were the team that selected him. I fail to see this is an unfair comment. And if he is able to do it before his 21st birthday, I'd jump up and down and party in celebration.
Team Canada obviously feels he is one of their top twelve or they would not have selected him. This is irrefutable evidence of how highly some of the most respected people in hockey view this player. And its not as if he was chosen by a nation that is lacking in defence. The Canadian national team has easily the most impressive defensive depth of any nation. There was NO RULE which stated that teams needed to take players under 22. And there is no immediate need for Canada to start playing inferior players just because of their age. It's not as if Pronger, Blake, Foote, Niedermayer, etc are on their deathbed. It's an aging four guys, but its still a hell of a lot better than any other nation can boast as its top four. Yes, it's true, he was an injury replacement, and that's why I did not claim he was a top eight defender. In reality, I could have fairly said he's top ten, but I left some room for argument's sake. In terms of his NHL point production, and I say this with the backing of a pretty formidable Canadian management team (I hear Pat Quinn, Kevin Lowe, Steve Tambellini, Kevin Hitchcock, etc, etc, know a little bit about hockey), apparently this isn't indicative of his offensive abilities. Let's keep in mind Florida had one of the most anemic offences in the NHL.
But if you want to nitpick, let's compare how they did as youths. Jay Bouwmeester was on Canada's WJC team from the age of 16. Sixteen. In an international under-20 tournament. That seems moderately impressive to me. And when he was older, he was pretty damn good in those tournaments. How was Jack Johnson last time around? Oh wait, he was cut from a team that boasted a, mostly, embarassingly bad defensive unit.
Of course, yes, there are some other issues and extenuating circumstances, but if we're going to ignore other factors, like a few seem to, let's do the same with all parties.
So I stand by my statement and see absolutely no reason why it is unfair. If Jack Johnson ever develops into the calibre of defenceman that will make a Team Canada at a major international event, I would be very happy if I were the team that selected him. I fail to see this is an unfair comment. And if he is able to do it before his 21st birthday, I'd jump up and down and party in celebration.
i agree completely.He's one of our best defensemen right now.People have to watch this kid more.Matt MacInnis said:
But he got no points & he isnt physical.cyclops said:
I cant believe how stupid Hockey Canada is. They obviously havnt been watching him play or looking at his stats.
Wally112pac said:
With the Panthers defense being so bad, Bouwmeester was given every chance to become a leader on that team. He failed on all levels to become a leader in Florida. But because he plays in Florida, everyone from Hockey Canada believes that it's the environment that Jay plays in that makes him seem like a mediocre defender. If anybody watched the AHL this year and watched Bouwmeester play, then you would be able to see that he did nothing there as well. He was expected to dominate on all ends, and he failed. Failed Miserably.
Pitkanen had a better year this year than Bouwmeester. That is nothing of dispute. When Jay had a chance to go down and really dominate, he failed to do so. Don't say, well it was because of the team. He's expected to be a leader. He failed to take charge. He was content at being a follower. Pitkanen improved every facet of his game.
I'm willing to bet that when the season starts up, Pitkanen will be even further ahead in terms of his development. Do I think Jay has a chance to turn it around with Jacques Martin on board? Absolutely, but I'm also going to say that Pitkanen will be the next dominant defenseman in the league.
Yeah,but the kid can stick to just about anyone(well,anyone) with his incredible skating, he knows how to play 'd' too,just watch his coverage.He has some down games but he really knows how to cover guys,can stay with any skater in the league and move the puck out of the zone and get you out of trouble like nobodies business when the mood suits him (he needs to do more of this) He played really well at the world cup under difficult circumstances and looked like he was a seasoned veteran all-star most shifts.He's poised and his physical gifts are incredible.I don't think he'll ever be a great scorer and he don't have to be for me. As long as he get's more agressive with his confidence and uses game in and game out the incredible skill set he does have he can still be a norris type defenseman and impact d-guy that no other team has a replica of.Sammy said:
While i'd like him to start knocking the stuffing out of guys he does'nt have to in order to be great...................Lidstrom does'nt and he's great.I know a guy like Nick is much better offensively but Bouwmeester can do other things that can make him an impact player in a different way......he just has to do them reguarely and i think he eventually will. I really like j-bo a lot and can think of few defensemen who can play on world class teams and look in his element at such a young age. I'm not sure if Johnson will be better or not(only seen him play once,not much to go on) but i can say that if he turns out to be as good as i think Bouwmeeester already is and will be then i think the team that drafts him will have done very well.
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How can either of these defenders be "the next Pronger"?
Bouwmeester doesn't use his size and Johnson is only 6 foot.
Bouwmeester doesn't use his size and Johnson is only 6 foot.
Why compare? Jay is doing just fine and Johnson is very young. Personally, Johnson is more like a Potvin than anybody in my opinion. Definately old school, and just watch, his offensive skill will really come out at Michigan. The US coaches, worlds most incompetent, held him back all year. Totally political, had to make Kessel the star. I saw this from the beginning. Example, Johnson had 7 points in one game, did you read about it anywhere? No way, but if it was Kessel it would have been front page news. USA hockey can't stand all the hype about Crosby and thought Kessel was their counter, unfortunately they oicked the wrong kid. Peter Mueller will go ahead of Kessel next year!!!!!
FlyersFan10 said:
What do you mean become a leader?
The kid is super shy. He's not captain/leader material at 19/20 years old.
I find it hilarious that everyone rags on young Jbo cause he hasn't scored very much in the NHL. But people love older Kronwall and what has he done in the NHL to date?
Wally112pac said:
I don't like Kronwall at all. I'm a Pitkanen fan and I think he'll be the next big thing in terms of defenders. I don't see greatness with Bouwmeester. If he ever wants to be great, then he will need to step up and be the top dog on the Florida blueline. You said it best. He's super shy. And as long as that's the case, he'll never be number 1.
A shy player can't be 'top dog' on the Florida bluleine?FlyersFan10 said:
I think you need to wait a few years before you pass judgement, here.
FlyersFan10 said:
Geez, somebody should have told that to Orr when he was 20.
And pitkanens fast becoming unbelievably overrated.
Matt MacInnis said:
Bull. No, obviously Team Canada feels it's in their best interest to put him on there. Because, just like many teams, it's important to give young guys a look.
The flat, 100% reality is in two years in the NHL he hasn't been as good as Van Ryn on his own team.
That is the reality.
All this "He's already Top 12" stuff is garbage. If you really want to say that then you 100% have to say Van Ryn is at least Top 11. Are you willing to do that?
I mean, I like the kid. But some of these arguements are rediculous. The only thing obvious is Canada put him there thinking of the future. It's a good move. You want to see someone like him get a chance now because it will pay off in the future. And with a D like Canada has, they have room for it.
Jay is no where near Top 12 RIGHT NOW amongst Canadian Dmen. No where. Like I said, if you believe so then explain Van Ryn's exclusion. Because for 2 years now, on the same exact team, he's been better.
Boumeester, Orr, Coffey, Lowe, Leetch, Phillips, Morris, Sydor, Stuart...etc.Liquidrage said:
The list is endless.
And your Van Ryn argument illustrates the depth of a number of things, not limited to your knowledge.
And thats not a compliment.
Sammy said:
1. Now. It should have been obvious. Orr. Coffey. Etc... Don't count. Pitkanen isn't getting trumped as an all-time great. Just as a great prospect.
2. If you're going to claim Van Ryn hasn't been better then feel free to say anything you want in rebuttle because you know not which you're talking about. It's totally ironic watching people try to pretend then have a clue and say JBo's been better then Van Ryn the last two years. They are on the same team. One has been head and shoulders above the other. That one would be Van Ryn. That people are even trying to argue it is abusrd. No, don't bother coming back with your prospect love. I don't care for it. Pitkanen wasn't better then Johnsson or anything. I'm not the one trying to make some absurd claim that JBo is already Top 12 Canadian Dmen. Yeah, he doesn't hit. Doesn't play great D. Doesn't score points. WTF? It's stupid. I'm done. If you want to show how biased you are or how little you actually watch hockey, keep posting that currently JBo > Van Ryn
I hate to say this but Sammy has a point. J-Bo's strength is difficult to measure. We only look at goals and assists. That should be an afterthought for a defenseman. J-Bo is a great skater and seems to stay with his man very well. He did have a disappointing year in SA. He seemed to play no better in the minors. It is reasonable to question but the Panthers make it difficult to shine. Let's see how he does this year. Shouldn't we expect more from Pitkanen on the Flyers than J-Bo on the Panthers? Just a thought... It IS a TEAM sport.
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