They had those players, but they also had Pavelec, who played a huge role in that underachieving that you speak of.
Jack Eichel vs Patrik Laine
- Thread starter Asiantuntija
- Start date
- Status
They had those players, but they also had Pavelec, who played a huge role in that underachieving that you speak of.
MattySnipes
Registered User
No. But I love how you bring up Matthews in an Eichel vs. Laine threadSo your saying Laine is better than Matthews?
Oh, because Matthews has been injured this year right? You're so clever
....not!Matthews' injuries this year were fluke/unlucky so you can't chalk that up to "a skill in itself".
1st. Concussion (out of his control)
2nd. Sandwiched between two players (unlucky)
If his injuries were not unlucky then it's a different story. For other unlucky injuries see McDavid collarbone injury, see Laine injury from McCabe last year (bit unlucky, but more so his own fault for having his head down along with the teammate that gave him a suicide pass). It happens.
Rogue Winger
Registered User
- Mar 10, 2018
- 102
- 64
The phrase "Nostetaan kissa pöydälle" ("Let's put/lift the cat on the table") origins from checking if the cat is male or female.
However, the phrases common usage refers roughly to the quote above.
Last edited:
Gotta love seeing the Jets score 5 goals every night and Laine doesen't need to be any part of it.
Life must be rough on that team.
Meanwhile the guy who's losing poll creates all the offense on his team which still isn't enough because his team has NOTHING on the Jets.
People that think the TEAMS who surround these players have nothing to do with the results are fooling themselves.
Anyway, in a FULL HEALTHY season and playing on a better team, (god knows when that will happen, maybe in a couple years if we get lucky in draft lottery) it's going to be very interesting to see how far ahead Eichel is then Laine in pts every year. I have no doubts at all.
Laine is an incedible goal scorer.
That don't make him better then other elite young talent. He's got a chance to be in that Tarasenko bracket, maybe a better goal scorer then Senko, but probably not a better player. And I know, he;s put up over 40 as a "TEENAGER" Jets fans, even though he's been an adult for two years. (Settle Down Canadian media trying to pander to Jets fans to make it sound more impressive) but he's just about as relevant as that, with an even better shot, better team, better potential. That in itself is a big compliment to Laine by the way.
Life must be rough on that team.
Meanwhile the guy who's losing poll creates all the offense on his team which still isn't enough because his team has NOTHING on the Jets.
People that think the TEAMS who surround these players have nothing to do with the results are fooling themselves.
Anyway, in a FULL HEALTHY season and playing on a better team, (god knows when that will happen, maybe in a couple years if we get lucky in draft lottery) it's going to be very interesting to see how far ahead Eichel is then Laine in pts every year. I have no doubts at all.
Laine is an incedible goal scorer.
That don't make him better then other elite young talent. He's got a chance to be in that Tarasenko bracket, maybe a better goal scorer then Senko, but probably not a better player. And I know, he;s put up over 40 as a "TEENAGER" Jets fans, even though he's been an adult for two years. (Settle Down Canadian media trying to pander to Jets fans to make it sound more impressive) but he's just about as relevant as that, with an even better shot, better team, better potential. That in itself is a big compliment to Laine by the way.
Last edited:
It's funny how that old Hockey saying Coaches like to use "What have you done for me lately?" is so relevant to who leads/wins these polls.
If this poll took place 6 weeks ago, Eichel wins in a landslide.
Then of course Eichel got hurt, Laine blew up, then in the last few days, after Eichel scores 2 on the Leafs and Laine misses a game and goes a bit quiet, the poll again starts to swing a bit as Jack has gotten like 10-12 of the last 15 votes it looks like.
Animal cruelty.
I'm sure your cat brings more value to you.
You realize Eichel's two injuries were both freak injuries and the only injuries he's ever sustained in his whole life right?
Just saying this because your saying Matthews had a freak injury as if Eichel's werent meanwhile you gave credit to Laine's ability to stay healthy is a skill in itself and ironically he's actually been injured (In small sections) here and there. Pretty confusing.
If this poll took place 6 weeks ago, Eichel wins in a landslide.
Then of course Eichel got hurt, Laine blew up, then in the last few days, after Eichel scores 2 on the Leafs and Laine misses a game and goes a bit quiet, the poll again starts to swing a bit as Jack has gotten like 10-12 of the last 15 votes it looks like.
Animal cruelty.
I'm sure your cat brings more value to you.
No. But I love how you bring up Matthews in an Eichel vs. Laine thread
Oh, because Matthews has been injured this year right? You're so clever
Matthews' injuries this year were fluke/unlucky so you can't chalk that up to "a skill in itself".
1st. Concussion (out of his control)
2nd. Sandwiched between two players (unlucky)
If his injuries were not unlucky then it's a different story. For other unlucky injuries see McDavid collarbone injury, see Laine injury from McCabe last year (bit unlucky, but more so his own fault for having his head down along with the teammate that gave him a suicide pass). It happens.
You realize Eichel's two injuries were both freak injuries and the only injuries he's ever sustained in his whole life right?
Just saying this because your saying Matthews had a freak injury as if Eichel's werent meanwhile you gave credit to Laine's ability to stay healthy is a skill in itself and ironically he's actually been injured (In small sections) here and there. Pretty confusing.
Last edited:
Narow
Registered User
- Nov 11, 2016
- 5,927
- 706
Last 3 games yes....hes coming off an insane streak...check the 20 or so games prior to that and while scheifele was injured...
Laine was the jets offense...ups and downs of a season calm down mate
It's funny how that old Hockey saying Coaches like to use "What have you done for me lately?" is so relevant to who leads/wins these polls.
If this poll took place 6 weeks ago, Eichel wins in a landslide.
Then of course Eichel got hurt, Laine blew up, then in the last few days, after Eichel scores 2 on the Leafs and Laine misses a game and goes a bit quiet, the poll again starts to swing a bit as Jack has gotten like 10-12 of the last 15 votes it looks like.
Animal cruelty.
I'm sure your cat brings more value to you.
You realize Eichel's two injuries were both freak injuries and the only injuries he's ever sustained in his whole life right?
Just saying this because your saying Matthews had a freak injury as if Eichel's werent meanwhile you gave credit to Laine's ability to stay healthy is a skill in itself and ironically he's actually been injured (In small sections) here and there. Pretty confusing.
I like how you're trying to put a ceiling on a kid who is still very raw yet showing flashes of brilliance and even then some by going on a hot streak that no other teenager has done before
he's not just a goal scorer. he has vision and a pretty good hockey iq. he can makes moves out his own zone and he can contribute on the back check
you want to simplify him as a goal scorer because you barely watch the kid play and because hos goal scoring ability is talked about the most
talk to me when eichel puts up a better season than laine because it's not gonna be this year
I'm not saying he won't, but he has yet to score 60 points in the league
INJURY OR NOT HE HAS YET TO DO IT
MattySnipes
Registered User
Really? Were they freak injuries? Sorry, I don't follow the Sabres so I didn't realize they were freak injuries. I know Laine has only been injured once and that's because I was watching that game last year against the Sabres and saw the hit. However, if you refer to the poll results I actually voted "Eichel" because I find a C more valuable than a W. If they were freak injuries than of course, it's very similar to the Matthews situation regarding unlucky injuries. Regardless, doesn't change my view on who is better - Eichel.
kelsier
Registered User
- Aug 17, 2013
- 4,280
- 1,741
Some rather amusing outbursts & overreactions here, ha.
Also the narrative seems pretty funny, a one man's team versus a player who's on a pedestal of an insane team with full support cast behind him that is only constructed so that this player would score points.
Had I not watched the Jets game this season and only checked the stats, I might just buy that story. However that's nowhere near the truth. There were no handouts for Laine this year and he has played a whole lot of 2/3 of a game at even strength together with Scheifele. Yes, the same Scheifele who's been feasting with Wheelers for points and prime game time. Meanwhile Laine has always remained in the background and somehow despite of playing either in the second or third line, he's managed to score 43 goals and this while icing some 16+ minutes per game. He was practically married to Little for half a season and the line wouldn't click no matter what, yet instantly when moved next to Copp (who's maybe a 3rd line center at best) things started to happen. Had they figured it out sooner, the kid might have broke the 50 barrier already. Never know and lets not forget that we are still talking about a mere teenager.
If someone (let alone 19 year old) can race for the Rocket in today's era while playing in the 2nd/3rd line, you can only imagine what he will do once he's slotted in the first line with 20+ minutes ice time. I've admired Eichel ever since I first saw him play in an international tournament, but if I had to pick between the two, I wouldn't hesitate for a second by going with the young Finn.
Also the narrative seems pretty funny, a one man's team versus a player who's on a pedestal of an insane team with full support cast behind him that is only constructed so that this player would score points.
Had I not watched the Jets game this season and only checked the stats, I might just buy that story. However that's nowhere near the truth. There were no handouts for Laine this year and he has played a whole lot of 2/3 of a game at even strength together with Scheifele. Yes, the same Scheifele who's been feasting with Wheelers for points and prime game time. Meanwhile Laine has always remained in the background and somehow despite of playing either in the second or third line, he's managed to score 43 goals and this while icing some 16+ minutes per game. He was practically married to Little for half a season and the line wouldn't click no matter what, yet instantly when moved next to Copp (who's maybe a 3rd line center at best) things started to happen. Had they figured it out sooner, the kid might have broke the 50 barrier already. Never know and lets not forget that we are still talking about a mere teenager.
If someone (let alone 19 year old) can race for the Rocket in today's era while playing in the 2nd/3rd line, you can only imagine what he will do once he's slotted in the first line with 20+ minutes ice time. I've admired Eichel ever since I first saw him play in an international tournament, but if I had to pick between the two, I wouldn't hesitate for a second by going with the young Finn.
HenrikW
Registered User
- Feb 21, 2018
- 655
- 505
This is a bad comparison. Eichel has been injured both his last 2 seasons and plays for the worst team. Everyone will pick Laine because of what he has done in recent memory. Lets have this discussion for real in 5 years.
I have a feeling Eichel is a more valuable asset. How do you compare a top #1C with a goal scoring phenom? If I was building a team around either player I'd pick Eichel any day of the week.
I have a feeling Eichel is a more valuable asset. How do you compare a top #1C with a goal scoring phenom? If I was building a team around either player I'd pick Eichel any day of the week.
Talk to you when he puts up a better season then Laine? Okay lets talk.
Laine has never has a season averaging more points per game then Eichel.
And if a player misses significant time (like Eichel has) Points Per Game is the fairest evaluation.
Last Year
Eichel finished the year with a 0.94 PPG.
57 pts in 61 Games = 0.93.5 PPG
Laine finished the year with a 0.88 PPG.
64 pts in 73 Games = 0.87.5PPG
Sure it's harder to keep up average when youy play more as Laine played 12 more games but that MORE then evens itself out when you comparee the teams of both players and goals for , for each team....or the fact Eichel came back from a SPRAINED ANKLE of all injuries. (One of the hardest to come back on) and averaged this high of PPG (t-10th in league) on that team, and lead them to the #1 powerplay in the League.
---
This Year
(Editted including today's games)
Eichel has 57 in 62 = 0.93.4 PPG
Laine has 68 in 77 = 0.88.4 PPG
Again, more games, but cancelled out by the Jets scoring a cozillian more goals, more help, to Buffalo's last place GF (unlike the year before)
THIS IS on a team that scores like 70 goals less, with no other high end talent, where as Laine's situation is a polar opposite..
Normally I wouldn't say OH he's on a high scoring team as an argument. But when were talking about arguably the best offensive team in the whole league to the worst offensive team in the whole league, then yeah it's definitely a relevant factor that needs to be considered here.
If you watched Eichel for 3 games its clear as day who has most of the better skill attributes and who does more all over the ice. Unfortunately the massses likely don't watch a Sabres team that can't score without Eichel on the ice and DO watch an exciting top placed Jets team that scores all the time. With or Without Laine where he doesen't even have to be the best player or even a first line player.
HOWEVER
due to Laine's potential and raw scoring ability, he is definitely in the same tier.
So Same tier.
Just make sure you do research before making a claim that Eichel has never had a better season and so far in Laine's two seasons, Eichel has been more productive (PPG) on a team that's way worse, with way less help.
Yup.
Unfortunately they were. The day before last season a pleyr behind him had his stick down, and he backed up a bit in front of the net and doofus tripped him and he sprained his ankle.
This year he got tripped up into the boards on a weird angle, same ankle. Despite this being among the toughest injuried to recover from, both times he returned 6 weeks later and didn't miss a beat. He went on to finish 10th in PPG in just his 2nd season...ON BUFFALO.
This year he is 35th in PPG (Among players who have played at least 50 games) and just a few pts from top 15 in that regard.
Glad your decision makes sense.
Last edited:
JetsWillFly4Ever
Registered User
Tarasenko's career high in goals is 40.
Laine's got 43, with time left in the season, in his 2nd season, at 19 years of age.
He's already in the Tarasenko tier and has the potential to blow it out of the water. No offense to Tarasenko who is a very good hockey player.
That's why if you read the paragraph below (I mention Laine's age because I knew someone would hit the quote button and perhaps not finish reading) and went on to say he is and will be a better goal scorer.
A bit of an unfair comparison for the future perhaps I can admit TODAY. I think Laine will be more of a superstar
Last edited:
JetsWillFly4Ever
Registered User
So your argument is basically Laine is only putting up these numbers because he is on the Jets?
There really is no argument that Tarasenko is in a different tier than Laine, unless you claim Laine is only successful because he is on the Jets. It's a weird argument though. Laine would be playing with the top players on any team, and probably getting more ice time if he wasn't on the Jets. You don't play guys like him with scrubs, that would just be stupid.
It's just weird to say Laine has a chance to be in the Tarasenko tier when almost all evidence suggests he already is, and he's only 19. You seem to want to tear down Laine to prop up Eichel, which you don't need to do. Eichel is a tremendous talent, I voted for him in this poll.
I guess if you value possession stats very highly you could use that over to put Tarasenko ahead of Laine. I don't know, he may be better but suggesting he is on another level and Laine's potential is only being as good as him just seems odd to me.
No that's not my argument. My argument is explained best in the post right above your first one, where I wrote it out. I mention the variables, like goals for, ice time, played more games just moments ago, its lengthy and goes over it all. It's just few posts up.
I say there in the same tier, I just mention it helps Laine but both guys have things FOR and AGAINST them and I tried do spell that out accurately in the post above your first one (you may of missed it because it was seconds after I posted it.)
I think Laine is tremendous, I will be cheering for him and the exciting jets in the playoffs!
Not because there CANADIAN but because there one of the only CANADIAN teams I can stand. (Other then the OILERS)
I hate cheering on nations in playoffs. Leave that to WOrlds and Olympics.
Snippit
Registered User
- Dec 5, 2012
- 16,630
- 9,961
Snippit
Registered User
- Dec 5, 2012
- 16,630
- 9,961
Points are a better metric for offensive ability than goals
Yeah I actually agree but I'm just saying if stat-watching was all that was needed to determine who was better, then we wouldn't need polls. I prefer Laine because he is a goal-scoring machine and goals are VERY important but can definitely see the arguments for putting Eichel ahead
Of course you wouldn't hesitate.
Just like I wouldn't hesitate with Jack who's getting pretty hot scoring again today, Laine has been quiet since coming back. Haven't suggested that means anything at all as Laine was just white-hot, but what's the problem, has he been getting chances at least?
I love Laine, but I actually watch both teams (Not all the time, but I've seen about 20 Jets games this year and always the highlights) ...and while both players so are in the same tier, again I wouldn't hesitate either.
I wonder if you've watched any Buffalo games? I mean, that would at least explain the non-existant hesitation to me. But look, I'm not suggesting it's ludicrous to pick Laine at all. I just think for an outsider it's easy to see a guy like him on that team which you can't deny at all factors in, especially when the other talent's team is a polar opposite, it would seem obvious to pick the SNIPER who's scored an average of 40 goals his first 2 years.
But the eye test is important. And I feel a large amount of Laine voters here haven't done that.
But hey, we all can't watch all the games.
Holymakinaw
Registered User
This is a pretty good poll, but I'm going with Laine. Smack talking & Matthews vs. Laine polls aside...........Laine is the real deal. And I think he's more dynamic and will have a better career than Eichel.
kelsier
Registered User
- Aug 17, 2013
- 4,280
- 1,741
That's great to hear that you are happy with the pick and you should be. I've seen some games yes as I follow up on Ristolainen time to time so it's pretty difficult not paying attention to Eichel on the process.
I absolutely take in count everything when evaluation or comparing players. Starting from ice time to line mates and then of course age. I've read a few of your posts where you ignore the age difference entirely and that's not the proper way of comparing two young kids. Just like it would be unfair to compare Laine's 17-18 season to lets say Rantanen's 17-18 season, because they are year apart from one another. You can just look what they accomplished at what age. So if one thinks the two are close to one another right now, it's the next year of Laine that should be compared to Eichel's 17-18 as opposed to looking at Eichel and Laine today. If you take Eichel's two first seasons, then look at Laine's two first seasons, I just don't see it particularly close.
Also it's quite correct that one plays in a powerhouse and the other in a bottom feeder. However it's incorrect to claim that Laine would somehow have an insane benefit from the deep Jets roster. He's not playing in the first line that gets the minutes and the only times he's getting any advantage from Scheifele or Wheelers is on the powerplay. Where as the Sabres are build around Eichel. I cannot but imagine if the Jets already built around Laine instead of Scheifele/Wheeler. There's little to no doubt in my mind he would be a PPG+ player and possibly even already competing with the very best players in the league in total production (imagine a line of Laine - Scheifele - Wheelers for instance). But no, he was kept at the bay with minimal/average ice time and had a center he had absolutely zero chemistry with and one that isn't exactly known for his excellent playmaking abilities (just look at Little's assist totals from the past seasons even when he played in the first line). I think the fact of one playing 20+ minutes compared to other's 16+ minutes on average, more than compensates any difference created by the team disadvantage.
Laine isn't just a sniper. He has terrific hockey IQ and vision and I've said it many times over that it's his hockey IQ that has enabled him to have the early success in his career, despite of lots of fans who only see him as the shooter. No player could achieve anything of this magnitude (at every level he has ever played at) if he was only equipped with similar scoring arsenal. This kid hasn't even fully grown into his 6"5 frame just yet, but once he does, he will set the league on fire. His resume speaks on his own behalf, all the way from FEL to international ice and finally the NHL. No one has anything similar in their pockets. Laine's success at all of the three mentioned (FEL, international and NHL) has been historical, and he has yet but to scratch the surface. So no, I would not look back on that decision.
Eichel is a different type of player relying on different strengths and great by his own right, but so far looking at age to age achievements in hockey I don't see him being on the same level. Will it remain that way? I don't have the crystal ball to make bold statement there. Anyway, both of them are future faces of the NHL and I'm sure any team would give king's ransoms just to get even one of them.
Hunter368
RIP lomiller1, see you in the next life buddy.
- Nov 8, 2011
- 27,061
- 23,741
Considering all the hype, being giving everything in Buffalo, etc.....I'm still waiting for Jack to prove he's the real deal. So far not exactly super impressed with what he's done. He will tease you with potential but doesn't keep it up.
- Status
Ad
Upcoming events
-
Gold Medal 2024 IIHF WORLD CHAMPION - PICK ONLY ONE TEAMWagers: 7Staked: $36,600.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
-
-