I'd rather Gavi than Provorov, but neither of them play the right side and when Babs was going to be coach he wanted one of each on every pairing.
Player Discussion: Ivan Provorov
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Cowumbus
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CBJWerenski8
Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
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I thought for the most part he was pretty good.
However, we already have guys who do what he does well. If we can move him out for a package of picks and either use those picks to get a more stout defender, or sign a better defender, then I’m all for it.
If not, and we run it back. That’s fine too.
That's kinda where I'm at, in a perfect scenario I hope Mateychuk makes Provy redundant and we keep him for a playoff push. In a more realistic scenario, we just trade him at the TDL because we likely aren't making the playoffs
MoeBartoli
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Early in the season Provorov impressed me. He was eating big minutes and was maybe our best DMan. As the season progressed I thought he regressed, making more gaffes than I liked.
Ideally he would be a TDL move next season. I have little interest in extending him.
Ideally he would be a TDL move next season. I have little interest in extending him.
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Cowumbus
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CBJWerenski8
Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
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Yeah, I’d say that’s fair
Werenski a low end 1 high end 2
Provorov and Severson as 4
Boqvist, Gudbranson and bean as a 6 (although I do think Boqvist was starting to grow a lot before his end of season injuries)
We needed help on D. Nobody ever considered Severson and Provorov as perfect additions, but, with Bean still around as IMO a very similar player, along with Mateychuk seemingly ready to go and probably better right now, I can’t help but think we could have better used the pick to acquire a different type defender or possibly a decent center.
I would look to move him as soon as possible for a defensive defenseman or an adequate center. He’s not good in the defensive zone/around the net.
I would look to move him as soon as possible for a defensive defenseman or an adequate center. He’s not good in the defensive zone/around the net.
koteka
Registered User
I’d say
Werenski a mid to low end 1 or high end 2 - he needs a defensive partner if he is a 1 on a good team
Provorov is a 4 whose best quality is his availability, I don’t think he loves hockey
Boqvist could be a 4 with the right partner, but that parter better play d have and have good size
Severson is a third pair guy on a good team, and could use a defensive minded partner
Gud 5,6
Bean 6
So for the team to be good, we need a defensive minded vet right D to pair with Werenski and a left D who can play D and hopefully has some size. I think if Mateychuk and Jiricek both work out, they could be a good pair eventually, Boqvist would not be needed, but we still need a defensive partner for Werenski
Provorov is in a contract year. I hope he plays like it. He shows up every night, but he doesn’t seem to be engaged or care or something every night.
We have the same problem we had last summer that we didn’t solve - when we need a stop, who do you put on the ice?
For context, we had a lot of folks here trashing Gavrikov and calling him a 4/5 or worse, and then he goes to L.A. and is an essential shutdown D in their system, looks like a solid #3.
Our system asks a lot from our defenders, they have to be everything for everyone on the ice, and it's generally a chaotic team. They are going to make more mistakes on our club than they do for most other clubs. Consider Peeke and how effective he is in Boston in a predictable simplified role.
So we can put these numbers on our D in Columbus but that doesn't necessarily tell you much about how they'd fit in other contexts.
Werenski this year was one of the best 5v5 D in the league, high end #1 not high end #2. His biggest issue continues to be his misuse on the PP - he either needs a change towards a PP system that uses his strengths (weaving) or he needs off the PP.
It's interesting that Werenski had his best success with Boqvist, who is improved but still well below average defensively. We had this debate with Vancouver for years where Quinn Hughes needed a partner since Chris Tanev left, it was always assumed that he needed a Tanev type defender, but then he actually has a Norris caliber season with Filip Hronek. If you always keep the puck on the attack then it works. This is just food for thought for me, I'm not sure what type of partner is best with Werenski.
On the other hand, a guy who never stops playing, even with countless small injuries, must have a love for the game. We might just be making too much of an ornery guy. Or maybe he just doesn't love being stuck on yet another bad team.
Our system asks a lot from our defenders, they have to be everything for everyone on the ice, and it's generally a chaotic team. They are going to make more mistakes on our club than they do for most other clubs. Consider Peeke and how effective he is in Boston in a predictable simplified role.
So we can put these numbers on our D in Columbus but that doesn't necessarily tell you much about how they'd fit in other contexts.
Werenski this year was one of the best 5v5 D in the league, high end #1 not high end #2. His biggest issue continues to be his misuse on the PP - he either needs a change towards a PP system that uses his strengths (weaving) or he needs off the PP.
It's interesting that Werenski had his best success with Boqvist, who is improved but still well below average defensively. We had this debate with Vancouver for years where Quinn Hughes needed a partner since Chris Tanev left, it was always assumed that he needed a Tanev type defender, but then he actually has a Norris caliber season with Filip Hronek. If you always keep the puck on the attack then it works. This is just food for thought for me, I'm not sure what type of partner is best with Werenski.
On the other hand, a guy who never stops playing, even with countless small injuries, must have a love for the game. We might just be making too much of an ornery guy. Or maybe he just doesn't love being stuck on yet another bad team.
What about Gudbranson and what his haters think about him?? Gavrikov wasn’t so much a problem, as he just wasn’t the answer. Better option/style to fit with the current CBJ than Provorov, no doubt.
That said, I’m really not sure why we keep acting like Gavrikov not staying with the team was all on the team, however. Hypothetically, where do Jones and Foligno, and what the fans feel about their departures, fit into this concept?
Interesting that you blame the “system” for asking a lot of our defenseman. In actuality, IMO, it’s the lack of on ice (defensive and overall) awareness that the MAJORITY of our team has. And that includes many of these defenseman.
And that includes #1D, highly paid, Zack Werenski. His biggest issue is and always been his overall intensity and defensive zone performance, not anything to do with the PP. HE is a huge reason why everything is so much harder on the other defenseman. We need to “build around”/protect him the same way we do with Laine and Gaudreau.
You keep saying this. What “success” did they have?? I’m not sure you can come up with any worse combo of DEFENSIVE pairing that doesn’t include Jiricek. ANY good/“heavy” line eats Werenski-Boqvist up. They’d be good on the PP together, I’ll admit that.
The “problem” with predicting which combo of players will work is that each individual players style and game varies greatly and is much more complex than the simplistic EA Sports player descriptions. IMO, Werenski needs a D partner who’s extremely mobile, defensively capable, who would ideally also play with some type of extreme intensity, whether that be physical play or just consistently being extremely mobile/attacking on the ice.
Or maybe he wants to be used regularly on the PP and as an offensive weapon, which along with the MAJORITY of our defenseman, he would be better used as. All of Werenski, Provorov, Severson, and Boqvist are better on the PP than on the PK. Not to mention Bean and Jiricek. Other than Jiricek (right now) all arguably would “deserve” a spot on the 2nd PP of essentially every team in the league. PK, not so much.
What opponents?
Against what teams and what lines/opposing players? Genuinely curious and genuinely will not look it up myself. I’ll make the claim/prediction that it was against shit opposition. Feel free to post in a different thread.
Talking Provorov, I’m curious if anyone can explain to me why they wouldn’t look to move Provorov during this offseason/as soon as possible? Is the idea that he will return more at the deadline? I don’t understand that, teams have always paid a bit extra for the extra half of the season played, no?
That's our number 1 defenseman, who draws good quality opposition in big minutes. This isn't a third pairing that can be sheltered.
koteka
Registered User
Teams might not want to carry his salary all season (especially because he isn’t that great) but might need / want a minute-eating left at the end of the season. And since it is a contract year, he might play better than he showed the last few years.
It could be that he hates being on bad teams and then just coasts, but what kind of teammate does that make him? The biggest thing about Provorov is nobody in Philly misses him, and nobody in Columbus would miss him if we could trade him for a 1st round pick.
There are definitely a ton of guys on this team that lack defensive awareness. It certainly hasn’t seemed to be a priority for our drafting or our signing of free agents.
Not a good fit for us.
But I also presume there are many defensemen on good teams that would have similar attitudes here.
He seemed to have a good start, you might be onto something here. If that's true it's not "great" but then again it's also not necessarily black and white. It's just difficult to play in a bad team on so many levels, probably even more so for a defender and the mental aspect is certainly part of it.
The games I watched he mostly exceeded my expectations, but I'm still ready to fight anyone who thought the trade was good
