Salary Cap: It Must Be Done.

[tigermask48]

Ok, so the Kings benefited, but it's not the same as the LTIR now? Ok... Keep moving those goalposts buddy.

 

[King'sPawn]

Ok, so the Kings benefited, but it's not the same as the LTIR now? Ok... Keep moving those goalposts buddy.

In the same way other teams benefit from LTIR? No. This isn't that hard of a concept.

 

[BigKing]

Again, back diving contracts were used by every team. The LTIR loophole only makes sense for the 1%'ers. It is a very specific maneuver while the back diving contract became standard negotiating protocol.

Both are loopholes. That's the similarity. One is worse than the other and it's not because the Kings benefited from one of them.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It only worked in two of those very specific circumstances. Other times it failed and in the case of Matt Murray, he's not going to come back and suddenly sweep the Leafs to a Stanley Cup. He's legitimately toast.

Funny enough, I'm more bothered by being able to trade LTIR contacts to teams like Arizona so they don't have to make real efforts to ice a hockey team by using those contracts to meet the floor.

Agree with the seccond point especially from the standpoint of "these are the rules, but we're only going to selectively enforce them since everyone is nod nod wink wink backroom dealing around them"

But the first--Kane, Kucherov, Stone. It's a very specific circumstance but it's AMAZINGLY helpful tp be able to duplicate a top player's salary.

 

[bland]

None of these things are "loop holes". They were all perfectly legal maneuvers.

Just make playoff rosters cap compliant and everything's solved.

 

[johnjm22]

Imagine how good you could make this team with an extra ∼7M in cap space that you'd have by Doughty being on LTIR more than half the season.

 

[Statto]

Exactly. Because your argument is bullshit homerism.

You’re arguing that LA benefiting from cap circumventing contracts is acceptable because:

- they didn’t sign the contracts (even though they honored the exact terms of the contracts)
- they paid assets for the contracts (even though they would’ve paid assets regardless of whether they circumvented the cap or not)

Why can’t you just accept the fact that LA directly benefited from cap circumventing contracts? It doesn’t invalidate our championships. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just an acknowledgment of reality. It’s not a big deal, man.

All of Tampa and VGK’s LTIR business has been approved by the league, too, by the way. So your point about the league approving the Richards/Carter contracts means nothing.

Without getting into the full arguement it’s worth considering that the trade value of Richard’s and Carter was affected by the attractive cap hits. So yes they helped us fit into the cap but it also made them more expensive to acquire.

None of these things are "loop holes". They were all perfectly legal maneuvers.

Just make playoff rosters cap compliant and everything's solved.

Exactly it’s such a simple fix.

 

[Herby]

I don’t have a problem with the Carter and Richards contracts. They were quite common at the time and agreed upon by the players who accepted longer term and security at the expense of more yearly AAV. And it worked out quite well for Richards, he made a lot more money on his 12 year deal than he would have on a 6-7 year deal that would have ended right as his career was falling off the cliff.

I would also say the Kings aren’t innocent on sketchy cap stuff. I think the Richards termination is probably worse than an LTIR but gets forgotten because the Kings didn’t do anything that season. But what if the Kings had won the cup that year? The entire hockey community would have been up in arms about the Kings being able to get out from what was probably the worst contract in the NHL and used some of that to bring in veterans like Lucic and Lecavalier.

 

[King'sPawn]

I don’t have a problem with the Carter and Richards contracts. They were quite common at the time and agreed upon by the players who accepted longer term and security at the expense of more yearly AAV. And it worked out quite well for Richards, he made a lot more money on his 12 year deal than he would have on a 6-7 year deal that would have ended right as his career was falling off the cliff.

I would also say the Kings aren’t innocent on sketchy cap stuff. I think the Richards termination is probably worse than an LTIR but gets forgotten because the Kings didn’t do anything that season. But what if the Kings had won the cup that year? The entire hockey community would have been up in arms about the Kings being able to get out from what was probably the worst contract in the NHL and used some of that to bring in veterans like Lucic and Lecavalier.

I agree. Kings benefitted from this more than the contracts themselves. Imagine if the Kings had
$5 additional million in cap space taken up until the conclusion of the 2020 season?

Ironically, that probably actually hurt the Kings more, because they had more cap space to keep going for it.

 

[Fishhead]

I don't think it's possible to make entire playoff rosters cap compliant without overhauling the way that LTIR works. A simple alternative is to allow teams to carry playoff rosters according to the current rules, but your game-to-game lineups have to be cap compliant.

And using LTIR to pad your lineup isn't the same as a back-diving contract. Every single team had the opportunity to sign those contracts. The current LTIR loophole cannot be utilized by every team. It requires an injury to a key player, which teams should want to avoid. A freak injury during the run of play in November can dictate the winner of a playoff round 5 months later, which obviously is not the spirit of the LTIR rules.

 

[Brownie to Pancakes]

Yeah they're obviously not the same genre of evasion. Reminds me of all the smarmy Houston Astros stans who argued that "every team steals signs"

 

[Bandit]

Let's also not forget that the types of contracts we're talking about here with Richards, Carter, Quick etc. were eliminated by the league. The contracts weren't "illegal" when they were signed, but it was determined there was a problem, and it was addressed.

That's all most people I see are asking for: Address the problem and close the loophole.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the LTIR situation, isn't the league medical staff required to sign off on it? IE. you can't make up an injury to put them on LTIR, they have to be evaluated by the league etc.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the LTIR situation, isn't the league medical staff required to sign off on it? IE. you can't make up an injury to put them on LTIR, they have to be evaluated by the league etc.

(d) Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit.

In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination regarding the Player's fitness to play.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

(d) Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit.

In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination regarding the Player's fitness to play.

Ok, so basically if the League thinks it's bogus, they can do something about it.....

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm not saying it's not legitimate if that's the criticism answered to here

I'm just saying that while it's an oddly specific circumstance, it's really telling that MOST of the recent Cup winners put themselves over the top using it.

You have to be 1. a good enough team to be without a superb player with a large cap for a long time; 2. have said superb player get injured but healthy enough for the playoffs; 3. utilize his cap to boost the team with the duplicate salary; 4. have both players in the lineup for the playoffs.

That's not at all like backdiving contracts, only a very small select number of teams can benefit from this. The only way it would be similar is if EVERY team could just take cap off their roster for the year, like if the Kings clinched and then benched Fiala to trade for Hertl at the deadline then were able to play both in the playoffs.

When more teams winning the Cup with this than without, you would think it's worth looking at in some fashion. And no I'm not even mad about it, I'm just looking at it objectively.

 

[Trash Panda]

As it has been said, simply making the playoff rosters required to be cap compliant is a pretty easy way around this scenario.

 

[Surf Nutz]

Speaking of Richards, this is the first season where it feels like his contract penalty is actually hurting us.

We sure could use that extra 700k right now.

Think of it as paying the mortgage on 2 Stanley Cups.

LMAO on the arguments here.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

Imagine how good you could make this team with an extra ∼7M in cap space that you'd have by Doughty being on LTIR more than half the season.

I mean sure.... That's one way to look at it....

But that would also mean the Kings would have to play more than half the season without Drew Doughty.

Which like, sure.. Maybe they'd be fine and other players would step up but that's a pretty big hole in the lineup to fill. Is he worth $11 million?? No, of course not. But is he still a pretty damn good defenseman that can play 25+ minutes a night in all situations and put up 50+ points on a good team?? Yeah, absolutely.

You can't just take a guy like that out of the lineup and expect everything to be all sunshine and rainbows because now you have more money to improve other parts of the roster.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

This whole LTIR cap manipulation thing is a pipe dream tbh and is legit breaking fans into hoping a highly paid player on their team gets injured (Kindaaaaaaaa messed up) so they can utilize LTIR to TRY to avoid the cap crunch.

"But it worked for Vegas!!!!!!!!' Sure....... It worked for Vegas..... But that doesn't mean it's the new norm and the perfect recipe for success. That just means it HAPPENED to have worked perfectly for Vegas.

Vegas winning the division without Mark Stone is super impressive and VERY hard to do. Mark Stone stepping in to the NHL playoffs after missing the full season and performing at a high level is VERY hard to do. The timeline for the player's return from injury also has to be *near* perfect and allow that player to be back right around playoff time (sure, yeah we can argue Mark Stone probably could've came back earlier and sure that's part of the whole 'cap manipulation' thing but the timeline still needs to be relatively perfect). And even if Stone's timeline wasn't actually 'perfect' - Your team still has to be doing well enough where you can afford to keep a player like Stone out of the lineup and still make the playoffs which is... Yeah, you guessed it.. VERY hard to do.

And after allllllll that, you still have to actually WIN the cup.

COULD it potentially work again? Yeah. COULD it potentially work for the Kings? Sure.

But should that be our HOPE going in to next season?? Nah, that ain't it.

Look, virtually EVERY team in the NHL is super cap strapped right now (Hell, even some rebuilding teams are right up against the cap)... And yes, the decisions a team/GM makes obviously have a huge impact on the team's cap situation... But holding out hope for players to get injured so you can try some crazy sh*t just isn't the answer.

At the end of the day, the situation with the cap sucks. The cap has gone up $2 million since the 2019/20 season. A $2 million increase over 5 seasons is freaking insane. For context, the cap increased by a total of $11.5 million over the course of the previous 5 seasons before 2019/20.

That blows, plain and simple. And not to be the "its not entirely management's fault" guy but..... when you offer contracts like the Kopitar contract and the Doughty contract, you don't predict that the world is going to come grinding to a halt for 2 years and the cap is going to stay put for 4 years. You forecast those contracts out for their entire duration, accounting for what the salary cap likely will be down the road during years 5, 6, 7, 8 of the contract. If the cap was say $91 million, the Kopitar contract would be great- even into the later years of the deal. And even the Doughty contract wouldn't be THAT much of an issue at that point.

Obviously that's not the case, and that's why NHL teams are in 'cap hell' but I think it's worth reminding people that while yes, management has made mistakes, this situation would be significantly better if it weren't for an abrupt/unpredictable world event that threw a massive wrench in everyone's plans, professional sports teams included.

We want an extra ~$7 million to fill out the roster... Well, that's where it went. I agree if the Kings had an extra $7 mil to drop they could make the team seriously incredible. But for now, gotta make the best of an unfortunate situation and hope the team you have can get the job done.

 

[BaileyFan]

This whole LTIR cap manipulation thing is a pipe dream tbh and is legit breaking fans into hoping a highly paid player on their team gets injured (Kindaaaaaaaa messed up) so they can utilize LTIR to TRY to avoid the cap crunch.

"But it worked for Vegas!!!!!!!!' Sure....... It worked for Vegas..... But that doesn't mean it's the new norm and the perfect recipe for success. That just means it HAPPENED to have worked perfectly for Vegas.

Vegas winning the division without Mark Stone is super impressive and VERY hard to do. Mark Stone stepping in to the NHL playoffs after missing the full season and performing at a high level is VERY hard to do. The timeline for the player's return from injury also has to be *near* perfect and allow that player to be back right around playoff time (sure, yeah we can argue Mark Stone probably could've came back earlier and sure that's part of the whole 'cap manipulation' thing but the timeline still needs to be relatively perfect). And even if Stone's timeline wasn't actually 'perfect' - Your team still has to be doing well enough where you can afford to keep a player like Stone out of the lineup and still make the playoffs which is... Yeah, you guessed it.. VERY hard to do.

And after allllllll that, you still have to actually WIN the cup.

COULD it potentially work again? Yeah. COULD it potentially work for the Kings? Sure.

But should that be our HOPE going in to next season?? Nah, that ain't it.

Look, virtually EVERY team in the NHL is super cap strapped right now (Hell, even some rebuilding teams are right up against the cap)... And yes, the decisions a team/GM makes obviously have a huge impact on the team's cap situation... But holding out hope for players to get injured so you can try some crazy sh*t just isn't the answer.

At the end of the day, the situation with the cap sucks. The cap has gone up $2 million since the 2019/20 season. A $2 million increase over 5 seasons is freaking insane. For context, the cap increased by a total of $11.5 million over the course of the previous 5 seasons before 2019/20.

That blows, plain and simple. And not to be the "its not entirely management's fault" guy but..... when you offer contracts like the Kopitar contract and the Doughty contract, you don't predict that the world is going to come grinding to a halt for 2 years and the cap is going to stay put for 4 years. You forecast those contracts out for their entire duration, accounting for what the salary cap likely will be down the road during years 5, 6, 7, 8 of the contract. If the cap was say $91 million, the Kopitar contract would be great- even into the later years of the deal. And even the Doughty contract wouldn't be THAT much of an issue at that point.

Obviously that's not the case, and that's why NHL teams are in 'cap hell' but I think it's worth reminding people that while yes, management has made mistakes, this situation would be significantly better if it weren't for an abrupt/unpredictable world event that threw a massive wrench in everyone's plans, professional sports teams included.

We want an extra ~$7 million to fill out the roster... Well, that's where it went. I agree if the Kings had an extra $7 mil to drop they could make the team seriously incredible. But for now, gotta make the best of an unfortunate situation and hope the team you have can get the job done.

People are forgetting that Vegas tried the exact same stunt last year in order to fit Eichel on the roster post-surgery and it blew up in their face. They sucked and had to bring Stone back early and LTIR Lehner because they were desperate for points and still missed the playoffs. It's not like some foolproof strategy.

 

[Statto]

I don’t have a problem with the Carter and Richards contracts. They were quite common at the time and agreed upon by the players who accepted longer term and security at the expense of more yearly AAV. And it worked out quite well for Richards, he made a lot more money on his 12 year deal than he would have on a 6-7 year deal that would have ended right as his career was falling off the cliff.

I would also say the Kings aren’t innocent on sketchy cap stuff. I think the Richards termination is probably worse than an LTIR but gets forgotten because the Kings didn’t do anything that season. But what if the Kings had won the cup that year? The entire hockey community would have been up in arms about the Kings being able to get out from what was probably the worst contract in the NHL and used some of that to bring in veterans like Lucic and Lecavalier.

I’m not sure the say they handled the Richard contract was correct, but I understood why they did it. There was a case for it given what he did and I’m a big Richard’s mark. Ironically, given this discussion, putting him on LTI R would actually have been the smart move and the way he was beaten up, as well as his other issues, meant it would’ve been a viable valid approach to dealing with it. It’d have been easy for a doctor to not medically clear him, even if Richard’s disagreed.