Salary Cap: It Must Be Done.

[johnjm22]

Murray was healthy the last two months of the season:

Leafs goalie Matt Murray to return from injury after six-week hiatus | Offside

Toronto Maple Leafs goaltender Matt Murray has been activated off LTIR and is expected to make his return against the Vancouver Canucks.

dailyhive.com

I wonder how he re-injured himself during the summer. Coincidentally this will help the Leafs get out of their cap crunch.

 

[Choralone]

Fake scars on Amazon are only $7.

Please, we have so many people looking to break into the business here that we can find one to do it for free...and better.

 

[jgs]

Based on what is being stated in the posts here it proves one thing. Blake is terrible at managing the cap. Kings even with PLD will not go nowhere because they have weak goaltending. Copley did good but he isn't the answer in net that is needed to carry a team.

 

[AbsentMojo]

The problem with this idea is DD himself would not be on board with it.. he lives for playing 25 min a game every game even if his legs are shot. But it would not be hard to fake using his previous wrist injury if he were on board. This LTIR loophole is def bad for the game.. In my mind the VGK and TB cup wins are slightly tarnished although they did not break any rules. If fans feel that way, its not good for the game. That part of the CBA needs an amendment.

 

[tigermask48]

This LTIR loophole is def bad for the game.. In my mind the VGK and TB cup wins are slightly tarnished although they did not break any rules. If fans feel that way, its not good for the game. That part of the CBA needs an amendment.

Might not want to point that figure too hard. The Kings won two cups taking advantage of back diving long term contracts that got done away with in the next CBA.

You can't fault teams for using the rules in place at the time.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Might not want to point that figure too hard. The Kings won two cups taking advantage of back diving long term contracts that got done away with in the next CBA.

You can't fault teams for using the rules in place at the time.

I dont like the LTIR thing.. thats all my post amounted to. I dont want any cap circumvention as in the past or with the this new one. I think I went out of my way to say that its fair for teams to use the loophole as it stands - so not sure what your point is. The LTIR thing feels more abusable and just doesnt pass the smell test when top line players like Kucherov and Stone miss most of the season and show up right before the playoffs...a small tweak like saying LTIR have to be back 1 month before the playoffs to be eligible for the playoff roster would make sense to me.

 

[King'sPawn]

Might not want to point that figure too hard. The Kings won two cups taking advantage of back diving long term contracts that got done away with in the next CBA.

You can't fault teams for using the rules in place at the time.

Kings actually paid the equivalent of 3 first round picks and a second round pick for Carter and Richards.

So if you're advocating for these teams to lose picks as a result of "taking advantage" then I agree.

 

[tigermask48]

Kings actually paid the equivalent of 3 first round picks and a second round pick for Carter and Richards.

So if you're advocating for these teams to lose picks as a result of "taking advantage" then I agree.

I'm not advocating for anything. All I'm saying is that the Kings took advantage of back end diving contracts when they were legal during their two cup runs, and that allowed them to fit the players they had under the salary cap. Plenty of teams did it, nothing wrong with doing it. Same with this LTIR loophole, until it gets closed with a rule change, you have to accept it as an acceptable practice.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'm not advocating for anything. All I'm saying is that the Kings took advantage of back end diving contracts when they were legal during their two cup runs, and that allowed them to fit the players they had under the salary cap. Plenty of teams did it, nothing wrong with doing it. Same with this LTIR loophole, until it gets closed with a rule change, you have to accept it as an acceptable practice.

But you're comparing the Kings losing assets while "taking advantage" the same ways other teams do. It's a false equivalency.

And yes, we understand this will continue until there's a rule change. AbsentMojo literally said there should be a rule change.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

But you're comparing the Kings losing assets while "taking advantage" the same ways other teams do. It's a false equivalency.

And yes, we understand this will continue until there's a rule change. AbsentMojo literally said there should be a rule change.

It’s really not a false equivalency. The Carter and Richards contracts directly contributed to LA’s ability to field a championship team. No, they didn’t sign the contracts, but they had no problem reaping the benefits of having those contracts on payroll. Whether or not they traded for these players means nothing. VGK lost assets for players they used to fill Stone’s cap vacancy. So what? It’s a complete red herring.

Most teams over the past twenty years can say they abused an LTIR loophole or backdiving contract or whatever to win the Cup. It’s just the way it goes.

 

[King'sPawn]

It’s really not a false equivalency. The Carter and Richards contracts directly contributed to LA’s ability to field a championship team. No, they didn’t sign the contracts, but they had no problem reaping the benefits of having those contracts on payroll. Whether or not they traded for these players means nothing. VGK lost assets for players they used to fill Stone’s cap vacancy. So what? It’s a complete red herring.

Most teams over the past twenty years can say they abused an LTIR loophole or backdiving contract or whatever to win the Cup. It’s just the way it goes.

The point is that unlike the teams who exploited and took advantage of these contracts, Los Angeles actually had to spend assets, something that the other teams did not have to deal with.

Philadelphia reaped the benefits of the contracts, because they actually acquired valuable assets in the trade.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

The point is that unlike the teams who exploited and took advantage of these contracts, Los Angeles actually had to spend assets, something that the other teams did not have to deal with.

Philadelphia reaped the benefits of the contracts, because they actually acquired valuable assets in the trade.

This is ridiculous lol.

Whether or not LA paid assets for these contracts means nothing. You keep repeating this. It’s a total red herring. Philadelphia would’ve received assets for these players regardless of their circumventing contracts.

If LA had paid MORE for these circumventing contracts than they would have otherwise, your point would stand. But that’s not what happened.

 

[King'sPawn]

This is ridiculous lol.

Whether or not LA paid assets for these contracts means nothing. You keep repeating this. It’s a total red herring. Philadelphia would’ve received assets for these players regardless of their circumventing contracts.

If LA had paid MORE for these circumventing contracts than they would have otherwise, your point would stand. But that’s not what happened.

Their contracts which was approved of by the league contributed to their value that LA paid. LA didn't extend these players themselves. How is anyone supposed to argue how much more LA paid for these contracts versus some hypothetical we'll never know?

If you can't follow the difference of teams engaging in cap-circumventing shenanigans without penalty after acquiring a player, versus paying assets out on something the league already allowed, then there's nothing to say. These aren't equal situations.

 

[johnjm22]

Speaking of Richards, this is the first season where it feels like his contract penalty is actually hurting us.

We sure could use that extra 700k right now.

 

[Trash Panda]

Speaking of Richards, this is the first season where it feels like his contract penalty is actually hurting us.

We sure could use that extra 700k right now.

Managing the cap like a drunken teenager was always going to become an issue.

 

[johnjm22]

Managing the cap like a drunken teenager was always going to become an issue.

Tons of teams are up against the cap.

It's the nature of the beast.

 

[Herby]

Speaking of Richards, this is the first season where it feels like his contract penalty is actually hurting us.

We sure could use that extra 700k right now.

$26m in centers when the original plan probably accounted for $14m in centers for this season, but yeah the 700k for him doesn’t help either.

I still can’t believe anybody could have watched that guy play hockey in 2013-2014 and thought it would be a good idea to not use the CBO to move on.

It would have been like choosing to keep Edler for $5m the next 3 years.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Their contracts which was approved of by the league contributed to their value that LA paid. LA didn't extend these players themselves. How is anyone supposed to argue how much more LA paid for these contracts versus some hypothetical we'll never know?

If you can't follow the difference of teams engaging in cap-circumventing shenanigans without penalty after acquiring a player, versus paying assets out on something the league already allowed, then there's nothing to say. These aren't equal situations.

Exactly. Because your argument is bullshit homerism.

You’re arguing that LA benefiting from cap circumventing contracts is acceptable because:

- they didn’t sign the contracts (even though they honored the exact terms of the contracts)
- they paid assets for the contracts (even though they would’ve paid assets regardless of whether they circumvented the cap or not)

Why can’t you just accept the fact that LA directly benefited from cap circumventing contracts? It doesn’t invalidate our championships. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just an acknowledgment of reality. It’s not a big deal, man.

All of Tampa and VGK’s LTIR business has been approved by the league, too, by the way. So your point about the league approving the Richards/Carter contracts means nothing.

 

[BaileyFan]

Speaking of Richards, this is the first season where it feels like his contract penalty is actually hurting us.

We sure could use that extra 700k right now.

BLuc needs to get in Bettman's face and ask why the Sharks were arbitrarily allowed to retroactively apply Kane's settlement amount to previous seasons while the Kings are still paying for Richards.

 

[King'sPawn]

Exactly. Because your argument is bullshit homerism.

You’re arguing that LA benefiting from cap circumventing contracts is acceptable because:

- they didn’t sign the contracts (even though they honored the exact terms of the contracts)
- they paid assets for the contracts (even though they would’ve paid assets regardless of whether they circumvented the cap or not)

Why can’t you just accept the fact that LA directly benefited from cap circumventing contracts? It doesn’t invalidate our championships. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just an acknowledgment of reality. It’s not a big deal, man.

All of Tampa and VGK’s LTIR business has been approved by the league, too, by the way. So your point about the league approving the Richards/Carter contracts means nothing.

So with all the times I've criticized the org, you've decided to take this moment of disagreement to suggest that I'm using bullshit homerism? f*** off.

I admit the Kings benefited from back diving contracts. Heck, I'll add that the Kings benefited from being able to settle Richards' contract the way they did. Is your beacon of objectivity shining bright yet? But we're talking about teams (this time, Toronto in particular) who cleared a player to play in the playoffs and dressed him, but now that they're in cap hell, they are putting a previously declared-healthy player on LTIR to get them OUT of the cap hell they've put themselves in.

I don't see how the contracts the Kings benefited from, which have SINCE HAD NEW RULES PUT IN PLACE TO LIMIT THEM, as equivalent to another sketchy tactic that is currently being abused by teams in cap hell. And you know? I didn't complain when the Blackhawks signed Hossa to the 12-year contract. But I did complain when he was LTIR the moment he wasn't getting paid as much money. My stance has been pretty consistent.

And if the Kings were to try to put Doughty or any player on LTIR to get out of cap hell, or if it was sketchy circumstances, I'd criticize the shit out of it, too.

 

[tigermask48]

KP, you do realize Quick had one of those contracts that Lombardi signed right? To lesser extent Gaborik as well. Gabby signing that long term deal that tailed was the only reason the Kings could keep him beyond 2014. The Kings benefited from Quick's deal for years. It wasn't just Richards and Carter that had those types of deals that LA took advantage of. Let's also not forget that LA is still paying for those sins of the past with the Richards recapture and up until the end of last season Gaborik (via the Phaneuf buyout.)

 

[johnjm22]

The way LA got out of Richards contract was also controversial.

A lot of teams around the league were upset that LA was able to "terminate" his deal. Allowing them to get rid of his contract almost Scot-free.

 

[King'sPawn]

KP, you do realize Quick had one of those contracts that Lombardi signed right? To lesser extent Gaborik as well. Gabby signing that long term deal that tailed was the only reason the Kings could keep him beyond 2014. The Kings benefited from Quick's deal for years. It wasn't just Richards and Carter that had those types of deals that LA took advantage of. Let's also not forget that LA is still paying for those sins of the past with the Richards recapture and up until the end of last season Gaborik (via the Phaneuf buyout.)

Yes. I'm aware.

And the biggest issue with these back-diving contracts wasn't an issue for at least two of the players. Both Quick and Carter played their contracts through. The Kings didn't just benefit from a low cap hit during the player's primes - they were also subject to the same cap hit when the player was past their peak. If the Kings CPOed Richards, that wouldn't have been an issue either.

The LTIR and early retirement are and were tools teams were using to make the back-diving contracts unfair - because teams would sign players to these ridiculous contracts but they could just retire when they were no longer able to compete. Which is why the league finally stepped in with Kovalchuk's 17-year contract.

Plus, again, the league has since changed the rules on these contracts that can no longer be more than 8 years. Just because the Kings took advantage of these deals doesn't mean the issue's the same thing as another unmodified tactic that other teams are taking.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I mean they're apples to apples in the sense that they are cap loopholes

but they're not really the same thing

EVERYONE had the ability to sign back diving contracts

Not everyone has the ability to hide a guy on LTIR to make other moves, that's a matter of specific circumstance

Again I don't really fault anyone for taking advantage of what's in front of them but you would think it's really telling that damn near every Cup champion is doing one of these things and the NHL AND the teams are okay with it

 

[kingsholygrail]

It only worked in two of those very specific circumstances. Other times it failed and in the case of Matt Murray, he's not going to come back and suddenly sweep the Leafs to a Stanley Cup. He's legitimately toast.

Funny enough, I'm more bothered by being able to trade LTIR contacts to teams like Arizona so they don't have to make real efforts to ice a hockey team by using those contracts to meet the floor.