Is Kucherov the undisputed # 1 RW now?

[VoluntaryDom]

Also Kane is not a top 10 player overall anymore imo. Mcdavid Crosby malkin Kucherov marchand Karlsson Hedman Hall mackinnon Bergeron giroux doughty subban Barkov Matthews etc...

 

[DFC]

BTW

for all the education Einsteins in this discussion

Have I out and out said that Laine is better--but tossed out a stat and some opinion that the topic is not UNDISPUTED

so nice so many people went right to insults and acting all hurt without actually thinking about the topic

If Kuch lead in every single stat then we could say undisputed-- but he doesn't and we ask is he helped by the depth the bolts have? Bolts have a pretty deep team and most post have made it clear that Stamkos and Kuch hardly ever play on the same line--same can not not be said about the jets top guys as Laine is on the ice with most of them at some point in time

Stamkos and Kucherov played on the same line most of this year, but not always. Kucherov produces regardless. And he produced last year when the Bolts, despite all that depth, couldn't score goals to save their lives. So I mean, it's one thing to say "Kuch's numbers get inflated by TB's depth," but TB was NOT a good team last year, and most of the team struggled offensively. Kucherov (and Hedman) produced anyway. This year, with the team healthy, he produced again. All the guy does is produce. From the moment he got the icetime regularly reserved for star forwards, he's produced like a star forward.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Also Kane is not a top 10 player overall anymore imo. Mcdavid Crosby malkin Kucherov marchand Karlsson Hedman Hall mackinnon Bergeron giroux doughty subban etc...

Its hard to make some of these generalizations after one season. Kane had his worst season in awhile. Hall had his best season and may not repeat.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Only to sane fans.

If you are insulted by Kucherov being compared to Laine, you need to stop taking things so seriously.

 

[TheGoldenGod]

Its hard to make some of these generalizations after one season. Kane had his worst season in awhile. Hall had his best season and may not repeat.

I agree...Other guys may have had a better season but dang Patty Kane is still Patty Kane. He was an All-NHL 1st teamer last year (ahead of Kuch) and only 2 years removed from a Hart trophy. Its not like he's done anything to prove he's fallen off. 1 year with 10-15 less points on a terrible Chicago Blackhawks team doesn't prove very much at all. This is all subjective opinions anyways.

 

[daver]

You missed his point. He said Kane had a "better" year at his peak. But based on the sustainability of his underlying numbers, he doesn't believe he was as good of a player as the numbers suggest, which I tend to agree with. Kane's seasons from '13 to last year outside of '15 are a better representation of his actual ability. Meanwhile, Kucherov's underlying numbers the past two years suggest this is his actual ability and not inflated numbers.

And while Kane's numbers those seasons outside of '15 and Kucherov's the past two years are similar, comparing scoring and PPG placements within the top 5 are flawed. The competition at the top changes a lot year to year and it's clear this year was an especially good year for top scorers.

I'm not sure if I'd fully agree with Kucherov being better than Kane ever was. As much as sustainability matters, it can be argued that players are also creating better opportunities in those years and those underlying numbers are as much a sign of playing "better" as getting lucky. Also, while Kucherov is a better all around player, I'm not sure if it's enough to be a significant factor, and Kane has also put up big numbers in years without much help from his linemates. It's definitely not an outrageous position though.

There really isn't a good argument that he is better than Kane was last year or in 2014/15, let alone his 15/16 season.

One more year of the same from Kucherov and the "undisputable" becomes more reasonable. There certainly is dispute for now.

 

[daver]

And while Kane's numbers those seasons outside of '15 and Kucherov's the past two years are similar, comparing scoring and PPG placements within the top 5 are flawed. The competition at the top changes a lot year to year and it's clear this year was an especially good year for top scorers.

I don't see any "106 points in 15/16" level from any player this year. There were four or five that would have hit the 90 point level in 15/16, maybe McDavid hits a 100.

 

[Regal]

Only for those who put more importance on points than goals. The title of the thread us UNDISPUTED and if you only want to look at points and not goals and depth of the team then I can see where you could claim that. Jets do not have the depth of the Bolts and some could make the case out that the bolts player is helped by the fact that when they play teams--the opposition team needs to decide between Stam and Kuch as to who will be the primary target of the night for the top checkers with the other guy getting the second line checkers. With the jets, Laine gets the top checkers every game

At what point do points matter then? If a 5 goal lead is worth 30 points, is a 6 goal lead worth 36 points? Because somehow I doubt you'd argue Laine was anywhere close to McDavid last year.

And the idea that Laine gets better checkers doesn't make any sense. The Jets have just as deep of a forward group as the Lightning, and Laine isn't on the top line while Kucherov is. Connor-Scheifele-Wheeler is the Jets top line, and Kucherov played most of the season with Stamkos on the Bolts top line.

 

[Regal]

I don't see any "106 points in 15/16" level from any player this year. There were four or five that would have hit the 90 point level in 15/16, maybe McDavid hits a 100.

The competition was in relation to Kane's '17 and Kane's typical level of play in his prime. 90+ points in '16 would be better than Kane's 89 points in '17, which finished 2nd. Which means it's not as simple as comparing scoring finishes within the top 5.

And the fact you keep bringing up the 106 points means you're again missing the point. You keep wanting to box these arguments within your own framework of analyzing players. It's fine to disagree on how to make those evaluations but you're not going to have any meaningful discussion if you keep failing to understand how someone else is making theirs. He's not arguing about how the 106 point season fits into league scoring. He's admitting it's a "better season" in terms of production. But he is arguing that those totals are not representative of Kane's quality of play that season. An 82 game season may seem long but in terms of actual sample size it's still prone to variance.

 

[TheGoldenGod]

Assume Kane plays next to Bergeron and Pasta I guarantee he puts up a lot more the 74 points

Or if Kane switched spots with Hall, Kuch, Giroux, Matthews etc...

Cant just look at stats or single season success and use that to determine who the best players in the league are

Everybody was ready to write off Giroux anyways and he comes back and has a huge season

 

[Arkantoss]

Mark Stone

 

[Jumptheshark]

and are two other stats to think about

Laine did his damage playing 3 minute less a night then Kuch

Remember LOOK AT THE TITLE OF THE THREAD--it says undisputed

I have already posted the definition of undisputed awhile ago

Undisputed would also usually indicated a clear difference between player X and any other player

Kuch just scored 8 more points then Kessel and 9 more points then Wheeler (and he is an example of why I put goals over assists)

for those getting their pink panties in a bunch--did I post that kuch was not the best RW--my problem is the title of undisputed--as Laine scored more goals, Wheeler more assists

for me when you use the word undisputed--you are talking about a player who leads that position in all CATAGORIES

Kuch is also 7th for rw in +/- with a plus 15 ( a stat that even I tend to ignore unless it is for a fantasy league)

Laine 20 PPG vs Kuch 8
and you can not say Kuch is not on the power play as PPP Kessel has 42 vs Kuch 36
Laine has 8 GWG vs 7

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

"Best" is very subjective and often at the mercy of who got which bounces in a year, but "most complete" might be accurate. Great two-way player, and his offensive skillset not only has the Kane dynamics but that Crosby/Pavelski game near the net too.

 

[Chef de Cuisine]

kaner

 

[Daximus]

Undisputed best? No.
Among the best and in the conversation for the best? Yes.
But it's in no way, shape or form undisputed.

 

[Sky04]

and are two other stats to think about

Laine did his damage playing 3 minute less a night then Kuch

Remember LOOK AT THE TITLE OF THE THREAD--it says undisputed

I have already posted the definition of undisputed awhile ago

Undisputed would also usually indicated a clear difference between player X and any other player

Kuch just scored 8 more points then Kessel and 9 more points then Wheeler (and he is an example of why I put goals over assists)

for those getting their pink panties in a bunch--did I post that kuch was not the best RW--my problem is the title of undisputed--as Laine scored more goals, Wheeler more assists

for me when you use the word undisputed--you are talking about a player who leads that position in all CATAGORIES

Kuch is also 7th for rw in +/- with a plus 15 ( a stat that even I tend to ignore unless it is for a fantasy league)

Laine 20 PPG vs Kuch 8
and you can not say Kuch is not on the power play as PPP Kessel has 42 vs Kuch 36
Laine has 8 GWG vs 7

30+ points difference, Laine can't touch that. Like comparing McDavid to Marner, not even close.

Laine did less damage playing less minutes, sounds about right if he could do more they would've played him more

 

[Holtbyisms]

Only if Ovi decides not to switch back to RW ever again.

 

[NiL8r87]

Kucherov is absolutely the #1 RW.

 

[SotasicA]

Flavor of the month. There's a lot of season-to-season variation among players.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Flavor of the month. There's a lot of season-to-season variation among players.

2+ years is a really long month.

 

[daver]

2+ years is a really long month.

He certainly wasn't indisputably better in 16/17.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

He certainly wasn't indisputably better in 16/17.

Personally, I hate the word undisputed. Nobody is undisputed best at anything or we wouldn't even have conversations about it. My response was more about Kucherov being called a "flavor of the month" when he's been among the best for years now.

 

[Oak]

People picking Kane over Kucherov is suprising. I'd take Kucherov any day of the week if having to pick between the two. Kucherov is a superior hockey player.

 

[These Are The Days]

He's very close. I still give the edge to Kane for now simply because of Kane's track record of consistency. I think that Kucherov is still coming into his own and I'm not so sure if he has peaked yet because he goes through these funks that hamper his point production. It's not anything no player ever goes through but if he ever learned to overcome and never go more than 2 games in a row without a point he'd be a 100 point regular and Art Ross contender. It seems like the answer is yes but I'll answer yes to Kucherov being the undisputed #1 RW next year if he's putting up another season like this.

Just because you could match a boxer for a couple of rounds didn't mean you were better than him.