Speculation: is it time to blow it up???

[Sens1Canes2]

Chris Pronger.

Awww F me

 

[HisIceness]

Was it Roman Hamrlik? Or was that Yashin's draft year?

Hamrlik was '92, Pronger was 2nd in '93 after Diagle.

I think it is safe to say we all know who Chris Pronger is.

 

[rocky7]

This would be a mediocre team even at full health and full production.
Blowing it up isn't the answer, because they're young already. They flat out need to acquire better players,

we don't know what happens in the board room with the owners and all we can do is either believe a guy like Francis or not. was what he did, or what he did not do, part of his plan or because of the result of owner instruction, FA's not wanting to sign, truly not being able to move contracts like Ward, etc., etc..?

whatever the case they took a huge risk on the young guys, the top guys playing career years, new coach, risk of injury, etc., etc., again.

also whatever the case may be, it hasn't worked out so far and although we don't really know all the decisions and choices behind closed doors, we can see the results and speculate on why.

acquiring better players is always something that mitigates risk (and also as importantly, permits more options for play style) but for some reason/s Francis chose not to do so. now at this point it does look like they may end up being sellers if this all continues.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

we don't know what happens in the board room with the owners and all we can do is either believe a guy like Francis or not. was what he did, or what he did not do, part of his plan or because of the result of owner instruction, FA's not wanting to sign, truly not being able to move contracts like Ward, etc., etc..?

whatever the case they took a huge risk on the young guys, the top guys playing career years, new coach, risk of injury, etc., etc., again.

also whatever the case may be, it hasn't worked out so far and although we don't really know all the decisions and choices behind closed doors, we can see the results and speculate on why.

acquiring better players is always something that mitigates risk (and also as importantly, permits more options for play style) but for some reason/s Francis chose not to do so. now at this point it does look like they may end up being sellers if this all continues.

Why is acquiring better players a risk ? Could this team get any worse than it is right now ?

 

[rocky7]

^ I was saying they should have signed better players and the risk was not doing so. I think you just misunderstood my post that's all.

 

[BrindAmours Army]

On paper

But really, how do we really know IF we get pick either of them that they don't become Alexandre Diagle 2.0? We don't.

Or Jack Johnson 2.0

 

[Sens1Canes2]

^ I was saying they should have signed better players and the risk was not doing so. I think you just misunderstood my post that's all.

I'm not sure what players they could have signed, they don't have very much cap space and their big contracts are either immovable (Ward, Semin, Liles) or you want to keep (J Staal, to a lesser extent E Staal).

There wasn't any room to do anything, really.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I'm not sure what players they could have signed, they don't have very much cap space and their big contracts are either immovable (Ward, Semin, Liles) or you want to keep (J Staal, to a lesser extent E Staal).

There wasn't any room to do anything, really.

The belief that Francis "chose not to sign better players" is hilarious.

First of all, he signed players that, theoretically, should have filled out the holes in the roster. The biggest issues going into the offseason was the need for a physical presence and depth players. Well, he signed McClement, Malone, and Gleason for less than 4 million (I believe. Don't have their contracts on hand). All three fit the bill of addressing the issues that needed to be addressed. Now, like every signing, there's the risk of it not working out.

Second, as the old saying goes "It takes two to tango." Francis can want to sign "better players" all he'd like, but if those "better players" have no interest in signing here (and no one would blame them), there's not much Francis can do.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

The belief that Francis "chose not to sign better players" is hilarious.

First of all, he signed players that, theoretically, should have filled out the holes in the roster. The biggest issues going into the offseason was the need for a physical presence and depth players. Well, he signed McClement, Malone, and Gleason for less than 4 million (I believe. Don't have their contracts on hand). All three fit the bill of addressing the issues that needed to be addressed. Now, like every signing, there's the risk of it not working out.

Second, as the old saying goes "It takes two to tango." Francis can want to sign "better players" all he'd like, but if those "better players" have no interest in signing here (and no one would blame them), there's not much Francis can do.

Try explaining that to ^^^

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

I'll have y'all know that Chris Pronger is still an 85 OA defenseman in nhl 14 even though he hasn't played in like four years.

ea sports is GOAT tbh #tbh

 

[rocky7]

we don't know what happens in the board room with the owners and all we can do is either believe a guy like Francis or not. was what he did, or what he did not do, part of his plan or because of the result of owner instruction, FA's not wanting to sign, truly not being able to move contracts like Ward, etc., etc..?

whatever the case they took a huge risk on the young guys, the top guys playing career years, new coach, risk of injury, etc., etc., again.

also whatever the case may be, it hasn't worked out so far and although we don't really know all the decisions and choices behind closed doors, we can see the results and speculate on why.

acquiring better players is always something that mitigates risk (and also as importantly, permits more options for play style) but for some reason/s Francis chose not to do so. now at this point it does look like they may end up being sellers if this all continues.

I'm not sure what players they could have signed, they don't have very much cap space and their big contracts are either immovable (Ward, Semin, Liles) or you want to keep (J Staal, to a lesser extent E Staal).

There wasn't any room to do anything, really.

The belief that Francis "chose not to sign better players" is hilarious.

First of all, he signed players that, theoretically, should have filled out the holes in the roster. The biggest issues going into the offseason was the need for a physical presence and depth players. Well, he signed McClement, Malone, and Gleason for less than 4 million (I believe. Don't have their contracts on hand). All three fit the bill of addressing the issues that needed to be addressed. Now, like every signing, there's the risk of it not working out.

Second, as the old saying goes "It takes two to tango." Francis can want to sign "better players" all he'd like, but if those "better players" have no interest in signing here (and no one would blame them), there's not much Francis can do.

Try explaining that to ^^^

pretty sure I said just those things in my original post and of course it's all speculation. etc., etc.,.........except we can see some of the early results. and now interpret things how ever you wish.

 

[What the Faulk]

They have/had a couple million in cap space they just chose not to use it. For all intents and purposes their budget is pretty much the cap though, so it's not really any different. But you can't really lay that at the feet of Francis. If he's not allowed to spend he can't do anything. You can't lay it at the feet of PK either. He's already losing a bunch of money and still holds most of the financial burden. You can't even lay it at the feet of the fans. Tickets aren't exactly a scarce resource when the team isn't winning, and no one wants to commit themselves to 26-41 nights of letdown. It's just a perfect system of checks and balances right now.

That said, c'mon BB let's not even pretend like the moves he did make "Should have filled out the holes". The problems from last year remain. They're missing another top four defenseman. They have, at best, 6-7 top nine forwards, and that's only because guys like Nash and Rask gave blown apart everyone's expectations.

I'm not so sure the guys they did sign are any different than the guys they replaced: Mcclement is Malhotra, Malone is Westgarth, Bellemore is Bellemore. Gleason is really the only "addition".

If there's one move they *need* to make, it's finding another useful defenseman. Combine that with the return of Jordan in January, and suddenly this team looks a whole lot better.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

They have/had a couple million in cap space they just chose not to use it. For all intents and purposes their budget is pretty much the cap though, so it's not really any different. But you can't really lay that at the feet of Francis. If he's not allowed to spend he can't do anything. You can't lay it at the feet of PK either. He's already losing a bunch of money and still holds most of the financial burden. You can't even lay it at the feet of the fans. Tickets aren't exactly a scarce resource when the team isn't winning, and no one wants to commit themselves to 26-41 nights of letdown. It's just a perfect system of checks and balances right now.

That said, c'mon BB let's not even pretend like the moves he did make "Should have filled out the holes". The problems from last year remain. They're missing another top four defenseman. They have, at best, 6-7 top nine forwards, and that's only because guys like Nash and Rask gave blown apart everyone's expectations.

I'm not so sure the guys they did sign are any different than the guys they replaced: Mcclement is Malhotra, Malone is Westgarth, Bellemore is Bellemore. Gleason is really the only "addition".

If there's one move they *need* to make, it's finding another useful defenseman. Combine that with the return of Jordan in January, and suddenly this team looks a whole lot better.

But that's BB's point...those guys don't grow on trees AND they have to want to come here or you need a willing trade partner. It's not as easy as plug and play NHL 2K14, and I know you know that. Malone you can complain about, but one can always find something wrong with the 12th/13th forward. McClement's been good, Gleason's been good.

I think something that's been lost in the whole Semin thing, is that the same thing has basically happened to Murphy. Nobody has asked Peters (at least I don't remember) why one of the only guys who can move the puck isn't playing in the NHL. According to some on here, he had played fairly well in the first few games (I didnt watch much early on).

 

[What the Faulk]

I think that McClement's been fine as a fourth liner, but when he starts moving up the depth charts, he impedes offense. I get the whole screen the goaltender thing, but that sounds like other guys need to "buy into the system" and do that, to use a familiar buzzphrase.

Anyway, yeah, I know moves are a two-way street, but for free agents, I think having to "bribe" someone to play here is overblown. For a guy like Parise or Suter, sure, but most player just want to play. It can be a tiebreaker, but I doubt there's a big, flashing "NO CAROLINA" sign in every agents' office.

I agree with you on Murphy. He really can't be any worse than JML and Harrison have been in the last 10+.

 

[Unsustainable]

I just realized we are paying 950k this year and next for Ruutu.

I'd like to see us clear a few of JRs mistakes and retool after next years draft.

Hopefully Fleury is ready.

Maybe we can find a taker for Semin and Liles. Draft Hanafin. Build a nice D. Make a couple of moves for a power forward like Evander Kane.

 

[bleedgreen]

Blowing us up doesn't add the two top 4 dmen we need, three if sekera won't sign. The only benefit from blowing up is ensuring that we get a top 2 pick. If we are in line to do that as is there's no real point. I just don't think if we are healthy we're getting a top three pick.

Getting a top two pick, and using estaal to get a legit dman or two solid support players would be the closest to blowing up we can get. I think as long as semin plays this way we can't move him out to save money, we'd have to retain too much to make it worth it.

Limited choices and options that would produce results.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Anyway, yeah, I know moves are a two-way street, but for free agents, I think having to "bribe" someone to play here is overblown. For a guy like Parise or Suter, sure, but most player just want to play. It can be a tiebreaker, but I doubt there's a big, flashing "NO CAROLINA" sign in every agents' office.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. While we'll never know for sure how hard JR (in the past) went after UFAs, this team has rarely ever signed even an above average UFA, except when they are re-signing their own or have ties to the organization some how. My speculation is that this team has been low on the list of UFAs. What happens with Sekera will be interesting, but I see them struggling to re-sign him.

 

[What the Faulk]

The explanation could just as easily be that they never wanted to shell out money in the first place. I'm sure its not exactly high on anyone's list but I can't imagine the premium is more than a couple hundred K

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Well, the general consensus for most players is they either play for the money or play for the championship. Carolina hasn't been able to offer the chance at either of those in a long, long time. So what exactly does the organization have to offer free agents? Raleigh's a nice place to live and raise a family?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The explanation could just as easily be that they never wanted to shell out money in the first place. I'm sure its not exactly high on anyone's list but I can't imagine the premium is more than a couple hundred K

Could be, like I said, we'll never know for sure. I feel it's a little bit of both.

As per the "premium", I don't think you can put 1 number on it like that. If a guy really doesn't want to sign here, a couple hundred K isn't going to change his mind (if he's signing a $4-5M deal). On the flipside, if a guy is ok with coming here, it probably wont' take much more than what you stated. The premium could be anywhere from a couple hundred K to - there isn't enough money in the world to play there. It's going to be different from player to player.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well, the general consensus for most players is they either play for the money or play for the championship. Carolina hasn't been able to offer the chance at either of those in a long, long time. So what exactly does the organization have to offer free agents? Raleigh's a nice place to live and raise a family?

TBH that might be the main selling point right now.

The only other thing I can think of is that Francis/Brindy/Wesley/Nieuwendyk/Stillman/Smith probably have a fair amount of cred among the players. Especially for guys of an age to have grown up watching them.

 

[enviSAGE]

Just remember, no one remembers who is picked #2

I still remember Malkin.

Only real question is would this team have a better chance at a cup if it was a core of Staals and a rising support cast Lindholm, Fleury, etc. or a core of Eichel and the return of a E Staal & J Staal to Nsh or Tor for Jones+ or Smith&Wilson+ or Nylander+JVR and Semin's return.

The questions of life

 

[RodTheBawd]

TBH that might be the main selling point right now.

The only other thing I can think of is that Francis/Brindy/Wesley/Nieuwendyk/Stillman/Smith probably have a fair amount of cred among the players. Especially for guys of an age to have grown up watching them.

This was actually my thinking. I would think RF would be a whole lot more convincing to come play for than a guy like JR, particularly over the last 5-7 years. JR might have been able to convince money first guys and "older" guys with families that would love the area, but not win first and younger guys.

 

[danvincent78]

I'd like to see Francis go ahead and start (if he hasn't already) talking to Sekera and Tlusty about contract extensions. If we can sign them to the right deals, they are worth keeping. If not, then we need to move them both for future assets. Both could help us in the future, but only if they want to be here, and we don't have to break the bank to keep them.

After that, we have some upcoming UFAs who could be moved for picks
MCClement
Dwyer
Gleason

Try to move them for some sort of picks or b prospects who don't have to pass through waivers yet
They don't have great value, but all are trade able.

Trade Murphy as he still holds decent value

Figure out what they are doing with Ward. He has played very well this season....is he worth keeping as he only has 1 more year left on his deal? Or do they move out the contract for a low return?

I'd prefer they keep Eric. He wants to be here and again looks like our most talented player on the ice

Liles... Pretty much an unmovable contract. If they can dump him, they should....if not, buy him out in the offseason

Semin....the hardest one right now. Has negative value with his contract. Has played better the past few nights. Keep playing him, pray he starts to play even better so that his contract is moveable

JR left the Canes in a mess...too many bad contracts and not enough high end prospects. But there is still a good young core of players
Lindholm
Skinner
Faulk
staalx2
Fleury (hopefully)

This is a good draft to try and restock in.

My 2 cents

 

[My Special Purpose]

This may surprise a few people, but I'm actually not as down on the Canes' future as I have been the past few seasons. IMO, our forwards are actually fairly solid. We haven't really had any lines click yet, but having your No. 2 center on the shelf for half the season tends to throw the lines into a bit of disarray. But I think Eric Staal has cleared up a lot of concerns with his two-way play and leadership so far this season. Skinner is a stud (when he's not concussed), three young forwards have taken giant steps forward (Lindholm, Nash, Rask), another has legit upside (Nestrasil), and guys like Tlusty, Gerbe, Boychuk, Terry, Dwyer and McClement have been fine in their roles. That's 12 forwards that have been decent or better. Add Jordan and get Semin back on track somehow and we have a very representative forward unit. (Malone is the only forward who is just plain bad at hockey.)

And I think the goalies have been OK. Ward's resurgence is certainly a surprise, but I honestly feel that we're fine in goal even if his play falls off a bit, because I feel Khudobin is better than he's showed so far in a backup role.

However, then there's the defense. I wholeheartedly support blowing up this unit. I think our failings on the back end are affecting our breakouts, our speed through the neutral zone and our ability to use the points in the offensive zone. In other words, a lot of our offensive struggles are really issues with our d-men.

If we're being honest, we've only got two legit NHL defensemen, and I think we're overrating both of them. If Sekera hadn't had the season he had last year, we'd be losing it over his d-zone turnovers. And if Faulk didn't give us visions of Drew Doughty his first two seasons, we'd be losing it over his amazing ability to look completely lost on most nights. Hainsey, Gleason and Bellemore are fringe guys, at best, and Harrison and Liles don't belong in the league (although I think Liles has skill and could play if he wanted to, but as far as I can tell, he only cares in games against teams that have let him go).

The bottom line is that we really need to overhaul the defense. I'm actually to the point where I wouldn't mind trading Sekera or Faulk if we can get payment based on what the perception of them seems to be around the league, and not actual production. There's just not a lot here and nothing should be off the table.