Intensity, possession and being hard to play

[Shady Machine]

San Jose really has everything. I love the make up of that team. I hope they get over the hump this year and make it to the Cup Finals.

 

[Shady Machine]

It's a myth that all enforcers can't skate or play a regular shift in the NHL. Look at hybrid-enforcers like Patrick Bordeleau, Anthony Peluso, and Luke Gazdic. I think that it is important to have an intimidating player on the team that is willing to stick up for their teammates in certain situations. It lifts the weight off the players' shoulders knowing that they have an enforcer that will protect them. Pittsburgh doesn't have a player that is willing to step-up. And, certainly no player that is intimidating. How many times have we seen Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Kunitz get their focus off their game whenever they are victims to agitating? There have been too many times when they react to these agitators, and winded up paying for it on the scoreboard. This team needs someone to care of the dirty business. Even it means that the enforcer takes a penalty. As long as the star players remain on their game.

I shouldn't have stated that San Jose is a soft team. However, the talent that they currently have is built around speed. Not necessarily size and grit. Why do you think that they have players like Havlat, Kennedy, Wingles, and Brown on the team?

You don't need an enforcer, but you need big tough and gritty players that can play hockey. San Jose has that.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

You don't need an enforcer, but you need big tough and gritty players that can play hockey. San Jose has that.

Well, that's great and all, but tough players that can play a top-nine forward are hard to acquire. Because of the lack of tough top-nine forwards that are currently playing in the NHL, and the high demand for them. Even if the management did acquire a power-forward, it doesn't change my opinion that this organization needs an enforcer. I already stated that hybrid-enforcers who are able to play a regular shift can be found.

San Jose isn't a great example of a physical team. They have size, but they are not a gritty team. Boston would be a better example.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well, that's great and all, but tough players that can play a top-nine shift are hard to acquire. Because of the lack of tough top-nine players that currently playing in the NHL, and the high demand for them. Even if the management did acquire a power-forward, it doesn't change my opinion that this organization needs an enforcer. I already stated that hybrid-enforcers who are able to play a regular shift can be found.

San Jose isn't a great example of a physical team. They have size, but they are not a gritty team. Boston would be a better example.

Yeah but we aren't Boston and that will never be our identity. Based on the Pen's core players, I'd much rather them model their roster/game around the Sharks.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

Yeah but we aren't Boston and that will never be our identity. Based on the Pen's core players, I'd much rather them model their roster/game around the Sharks.

What has the Sharks won?

 

[Shady Machine]

What has the Sharks won?

Let's talk after this year's playoffs.

 

[Freeptop]

It's a myth that all enforcers can't skate or play a regular shift in the NHL. Look at hybrid-enforcers like Patrick Bordeleau, Anthony Peluso, and Luke Gazdic. I think that it is important to have an intimidating player on the team that is willing to stick up for their teammates in certain situations. It lifts the weight off the players' shoulders knowing that they have an enforcer that will protect them. Pittsburgh doesn't have a player that is willing to step-up. And, certainly no player that is intimidating. How many times have we seen Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Kunitz get their focus off their game whenever they are victims to agitating? There have been too many times when they react to these agitators, and winded up paying for it on the scoreboard. This team needs someone to care of the dirty business. Even it means that the enforcer takes a penalty. As long as the star players remain on their game.

I guess you and I have a different view as to what constitutes an "enforcer." For that matter, I'm not convinced that the dirty plays stop just because there's someone willing to fight for them. It's not like having Lucic on the team stopped Cooke from hitting Savard in the head, for example. It certainly never stopped Hartnell when the Pens have had Engelland in the lineup (or any other player capable of fighting Hartnell, for that matter).

What the Pens need to do is skate away, rather than engage those agitators. They target the Pens because they know they'll get them to react and retaliate, instead of out-skate and out-score them. They do it precisely because they know if the Pens did ignore them, there's no way they could keep up.

Get the Pens to stop reacting to the agitators, and their antics won't matter. Try to get someone on the ice to intimidate them, and I'll guarantee you they'll amp up the tactics to force the "enforcer" into taking some sort of instigation or retaliation penalty.

I shouldn't have stated that San Jose is a soft team. However, the talent that they currently have is built around speed. Not necessarily size and grit. Why do you think that they have players like Havlat, Kennedy, Wingles, and Brown on the team?

Just because they are built for speed doesn't automatically make them soft. I'd like to see the Pens follow the Sharks' method of building a team a bit more in that regard, in fact. The Pens have the talent to play a fast-paced game while still retaining the kind of toughness I wrote about earlier. The main thing the Sharks have been lacking are the defensemen that can really support them with their speed (which is why they keep trying to trade for offensive defensemen). That's something the Pens already have.

Oh, and for the record, Havlat and Kennedy have been healthy scratches in favor of playing rookies Hertl and Nieto. Two guys who may not be the most physically imposing players, but play with speed, skill and grit.

 

[steveg]

Intensity, possession and being hard to play

What is "what the Pens usually are not, in the Post-Season," Alex...

 

[billybudd]

What the Pens need to do is skate away, rather than engage those agitators. They target the Pens because they know they'll get them to react and retaliate, instead of out-skate and out-score them. They do it precisely because they know if the Pens did ignore them, there's no way they could keep up.

Get the Pens to stop reacting to the agitators, and their antics won't matter. Try to get someone on the ice to intimidate them, and I'll guarantee you they'll amp up the tactics to force the "enforcer" into taking some sort of instigation or retaliation penalty.

Easier said than done. NHL players are human beings. Highly competitive human beings. Competitive enough human beings to have made it pro in a contact sport where compete is as likely to get you there as skill, over a certain level of skill. And where compete level is probably more likely to go hand in hand with advancing in the post-season than skill will.

The very nature of the sport selects against skill players who are content with being punked. Erik Christensen. Peter Prucha.

Someone's going to mention the Red Wings right about now, but that's a misunderstanding of how they play. They ARE the punks. They initiate aggravating play with positively filthy (and unpenalized) stickwork (and in Kronwall's case, flying elbows), then pull a "oh noes, the mean men are picking on poor innocent me" when the refs come over to investigate why the other team's so angry.

That's one way to be difficult to play against without having big, strong, mean guys, but you need to figure out how to get the refs to go to sleep on hooks, spears, slashes and crosschecks to make it work. Nobody knows how they accomplish this and we certainly wouldn't get away with it.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

I guess you and I have a different view as to what constitutes an "enforcer." For that matter, I'm not convinced that the dirty plays stop just because there's someone willing to fight for them. It's not like having Lucic on the team stopped Cooke from hitting Savard in the head, for example. It certainly never stopped Hartnell when the Pens have had Engelland in the lineup (or any other player capable of fighting Hartnell, for that matter).

What the Pens need to do is skate away, rather than engage those agitators. They target the Pens because they know they'll get them to react and retaliate, instead of out-skate and out-score them. They do it precisely because they know if the Pens did ignore them, there's no way they could keep up.

Get the Pens to stop reacting to the agitators, and their antics won't matter. Try to get someone on the ice to intimidate them, and I'll guarantee you they'll amp up the tactics to force the "enforcer" into taking some sort of instigation or retaliation penalty.



Just because they are built for speed doesn't automatically make them soft. I'd like to see the Pens follow the Sharks' method of building a team a bit more in that regard, in fact. The Pens have the talent to play a fast-paced game while still retaining the kind of toughness I wrote about earlier. The main thing the Sharks have been lacking are the defensemen that can really support them with their speed (which is why they keep trying to trade for offensive defensemen). That's something the Pens already have.

Oh, and for the record, Havlat and Kennedy have been healthy scratches in favor of playing rookies Hertl and Nieto. Two guys who may not be the most physically imposing players, but play with speed, skill and grit.

When did I ever mention that Pittsburgh needed to acquire an enforcer because they were victims to "cheapshots". What billybudd already mentioned, it easier said than done not to retaliate against agitating. If someone constantly gets in your face, pushes you, and continuously yells insults at you, then you are most likely going to retaliate as it gets annoying.

I already stated in my previous that regretted labeling San Jose as soft.

Easier said than done. NHL players are human beings. Highly competitive human beings. Competitive enough human beings to have made it pro in a contact sport where compete is as likely to get you there as skill, over a certain level of skill. And where compete level is probably more likely to go hand in hand with advancing in the post-season than skill will.

The very nature of the sport selects against skill players who are content with being punked. Erik Christensen. Peter Prucha.

Someone's going to mention the Red Wings right about now, but that's a misunderstanding of how they play. They ARE the punks. They initiate aggravating play with positively filthy (and unpenalized) stickwork (and in Kronwall's case, flying elbows), then pull a "oh noes, the mean men are picking on poor innocent me" when the refs come over to investigate why the other team's so angry.

That's one way to be difficult to play against without having big, strong, mean guys, but you need to figure out how to get the refs to go to sleep on hooks, spears, slashes and crosschecks to make it work. Nobody knows how they accomplish this and we certainly wouldn't get away with it.

Exactly. I agree with your entire response. Detroit plays a gutless brand of hockey. They are frequently
abusing opposing players with their hockey sticks and throw borderline dirty hits. Yet, they are never willing to drop the gloves when challenged to a fight. The entire organization act like they're victims whenever any player retaliates to the utter ******** that they pull. There is a reason why they haven't been relevant for the last few seasons. Too soft and undersized. They claim that the powerplay is their "enforcer", yet they haven't done **** with them.

 

[ColePens]

I want San Jose to win if it's not us. Their style is sickening awesome

 

[Ogrezilla]

Letang for Burns. Hell; Letang for Wingels.

 

[SEALBound]

Sadly I believe we are starting to see the end of the era in which Crosby and Malkin can win you a cup without a strong supporting cast.

I think in the years coming it will become more and more vital for Sid and Geno to be surrounded by a cast that is every bit as capable of winning a cup as those two are. I think the "make due with less" myth is dead. Absolutely dead. Those two NEED support. They NEED players that can take the pressure off of them. Yes they are still all-stars but they are not the all-stars of past that can overcome any obstacle. A tight defensive unit and/or shutdown line is VERY capable of shutting them down. Quite easily as we've seen.

And here's the thing...I don't think management and the owners put as much pressure on a Cup as much as regular season winnings / meh playoffs that keeps the cash rolling in. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the owners are every bit as happy with the current season (assuming a playoff burnout in say the next round) as the Cup year. I think the money / ROI in more important to them. That is why no one is pressuring Shero, that is why Bylsma was brought back, and that is why the team has a well established, grass rooted country club motif. It "looks" better to have a nice family oriented team that wins and brings in the money than a blood and guts, claw your way through the playoffs, win the Cup at all costs. That is why the intensity is gone, that is why the passion is gone, and that is why we are where we are.

I guess this off season we will see how truly dedicated to winning the organization. Losing the duffers, booting the good ol boys to the curb, and reloading with a supporting cast is painfully clear what needs to happen. If it does, well hoo-yah! Bring on the next season! If it doesn't...sadly I will likely have a serious decision to make in how I support this organization going forward.

 

[Freeptop]

When did I ever mention that Pittsburgh needed to acquire an enforcer because they were victims to "cheapshots". What billybudd already mentioned, it easier said than done not to retaliate against agitating. If someone constantly gets in your face, pushes you, and continuously yells insults at you, then you are most likely going to retaliate as it gets annoying.

Explain to me, please, how an "enforcer" would do anything to prevent an agitator from agitating. Please note that Getzlaf was complaining about the Stars targeting his busted face in their series. If any team has the kind of "enforcers" that you're talking about, it would be the Ducks.

Yes, it gets annoying. But the way to get even isn't to go with a hack or slash back - it's to on the scoreboard. That's the best way to get back at an agitator. Send them home early while the Pens move on. The refs always call the retaliation. Don't retaliate.

I'm not saying it's easy. But it would be the best way to deal with it. Other teams seem to not feel the need to retaliate as much as the Pens do, so I don't buy that it's simply impossible to not retaliate.

I already stated in my previous that regretted labeling San Jose as soft.

When you used the phrase "however", you were negating your statement that you regretted calling them soft. The sentence translated, effectively, to: "I regret calling them soft, however, here's why I called them soft." If you were trying to make a different point, that wasn't clear.

 

[lastcupever75]

And it's not gonna change anytime in the near future.
Maatta and pool of look like 2 more guys that don't like to engage in contact

Pittsburgh Ballerinas

 

[lastcupever75]

As for 'retaliation'

I seem to remember the team having quote a bit of success when they did indeed retaliate in 08 and 09

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

Explain to me, please, how an "enforcer" would do anything to prevent an agitator from agitating. Please note that Getzlaf was complaining about the Stars targeting his busted face in their series. If any team has the kind of "enforcers" that you're talking about, it would be the Ducks.

Yes, it gets annoying. But the way to get even isn't to go with a hack or slash back - it's to on the scoreboard. That's the best way to get back at an agitator. Send them home early while the Pens move on. The refs always call the retaliation. Don't retaliate.

I'm not saying it's easy. But it would be the best way to deal with it. Other teams seem to not feel the need to retaliate as much as the Pens do, so I don't buy that it's simply impossible to not retaliate.



When you used the phrase "however", you were negating your statement that you regretted calling them soft. The sentence translated, effectively, to: "I regret calling them soft, however, here's why I called them soft." If you were trying to make a different point, that wasn't clear.

I will try to explain in a different way. Maybe it will help.

Put very simply, "the book" on the penguins is to turn the game into a chippy war of a game. It negates our skill, and we lack the means to succeed in that type of game due to personnel and attitude. It is the kind of hockey we are least well equipped to play.

Unfortunately, the way playoff hockey is called (and i personally say thank god it is this way) it is very easy to turn a game into this knock down - drag out style. Suddenly special teams are 50% of the game, there is little flow, and systems are out the window. You can walk away all you want, the game won't be a clean, smooth, open game.

The best teams, and forgive my aggressive obviousness, can win in many different types of games. Clean systems games, skill games, low scoring, barn burners, and wars. I say especially wars, because watch any series and compare it to the regular season. Rarely is intensity, checking, agitation, effort, or anything else reduced. Its why the cup is so hard to win.

In these discussions, those saying we need toughness get backed into a corner where the argument is reduced to "a goon to fight doesn't stop X". And here the non-toughness people are correct. One fighter doesn't change everything. Not even team toughness changes EVERYTHING. But its about "the book" on the team.

Rivalries 100 years old aside (montreal for ex.), No team game-planning the bruins, ducks, flyers, St Louis go in saying. "lets make this a gritty, physical, game" "Lets poke the bear and turn this into a slugfest". Its not a good idea, not a good strategy, and even the players will acknowledge.....yeah i dont want my ass kicked for a minimum of 4 games.

Against the penguins, its exactly the opposite. Lets make this an unskilled game, because they suck at it, it frustrates them, and there is nothing they can really do to respond (no deterrent). The pens PP isn't going to go 3-5 every game, so this gives us our best shot to win the series. Shero has had years to add inexpensive pieces who could help this. The games will still get chippy, but we should be better equipped to play that way.

Hopefully this makes sense, and adds some clarity. I hope you don't say "BUT THE FLYERS SUCK". If so your reading comp is horrible and you missed the part about being able to win any type of game. The flyers are lacking in other departments.

The detroit points earlier fit this well. They go about their own way, but they can win the chippy game, they also can win the skill games (more so with zetts). Hence, they tend to do well.

 

[Dacks]

So... after two games in Pittsburgh, the six Penguins D-men have combined for 9 hits total. Brooks and Niskanen leading the way with 3 each. For comparisons sake Columbus D is listed with 22.

Our D is listed for 0 takeaways, and 10 giveaways.
Columbus is listed for 2 takeaways and 2 giveaways.

Beyond the eye test, one could suggest that this says a lot about who is trying to make themselves harder to play.

As for the forwards... it is of course much, much worse.
Our strength down the middle is based on having the puck, not our centers suffocating opposition and beating them up. Crosby, Malking, Sutter combines for three hits, and we know that none of them dominate that way. Hence, in the best of times, it has been the wingers who supplied that kind of intensity for them, in order to open ice for our talent and we should have been getting players in support for them who could do that.
Kunitz and Stempniak do it. Bennett a little bit. Neal occasionally puts in a big hit, but isn't a consistent checker at all. Dubinsky and Boone Jenner have more hits between them (29) than our top 9 combined. Only our 4th line is hitting frequently and that is as a consequence of them not having the puck, virtually ever.

Our forwards have 12 giveaways (Sid with 6 of them) and are noted for 7 takeaways. For Columbus these numbers are 2 giveaways and 8 takeaways. If anything I think our giveaway totals there are very generous, but of course it tells you a lot.

So, the above would be sort of OK if we were the ones owning possession, but we don't. Despite being the team chasing more, we are outhit almost by a 2/1 ratio, and we give away possession much cheaper than Columbus when we have it. Obviously because they stress us much more and much better than we do them.

A lot of this is roster composition and conscious choices from our coaching staff though. Moreover, it has been called, predicted... call it what you will... for a long, long time in advance.
If Sid/Malkin don't make offense happen by themselves and through the PP, we are a ****** team. Given the roster we have, that is just a sick, sick fact.

The only thing one can do about this is to try desperately to make adjustments to make us able to maintain possession better and stress the opponent with the weapons we do have. We cannot match their physical forecheck because our team isn't like that. Hence we have to maintain the puck and evade their forecheck. We cannot batter their D with our forwards consistently, so we have to stretch them with speed. Moreoever, we have to make sure that our top players are in a position to be effective.

This mans - before anything else- that Jokinen must be removed from Geno's line in order to give them a chance at winning battles and keeping possession of the puck in the offensive zone.

With Crosby I don't know... I suppose it would be crazy not to retry Gibbons on his RW with how he started yesterday, but in the end I think Stempniak ends up there as a fixture and Bennett on Malkin's LW, or vice-versa.

But no matter the lineup choices, prioritizing possession also means making sure that there is puck support - both when we bring the puck out of defense, and that we then get the puck deep with a purpose - ie. we put the puck deep in locations where a fellow forward will expect the dump in to come so he can chase it, and with the third forward moving up to support that area and take advantage of cut backs or forced turnovers. We cannot just rely on the stretch pass or neutral zone rushes as our avenues for creating offense. I know, I know.... would have been nice if this was not a realization coming to Dan in the playoffs.

With Stempniak and Bennett needed in other positions.... It is a shame to switch up Sutter's line now that it looks a positive, but ultimately that has very little significance if insuring his lines solidity prevents getting the top6 right.

Prioritizing possession should also mean getting more size and snarl on D while insuring that there are at least two pairings that can support our top6 at all times. If Letang was not a wreck perhaps this would be the case already, but clearly he is and Scuds is just too poor to be played right now. I have absolutely no doubt that Despres-Bortuzzo would be an upgrade on present Scuderi-Letang. That could of course be considered sad when thinking about cap issues next season.... or it could be considered a major opportunity...

I'd insert anyone with pace and hustle instead of Gladams, but I would also welcome Pyatt if the other two players were Vitale and Megna for instance. Enough hustle there to cover for Pyatt's skating and that line could cycle and create havoc in front of the net like a good 4th line should.

Ultimately however, whichever lineup we play, there has to be a plan for how we are trying to manufacture offense that fits to the lines and material we have. As MtlPen put it in his his great post yesterday - we are confused and in-between strategies, trying to play a type of hockey we do not have the resources for, and in several instances we are keeping players out who would be better at that type of hockey than guys who are playing.

We are a mess, but we are a mess of our own making. Rather than trying to mix and match to maximize our strengths however, we actively inflate our problems. We have done so for several years, and really that is the main reason I soured on Byslma four years ago and simply loath him today.

I agree with your sentiment, but in general, are hits and giveaways a good measure of possession?

For example, only team without possession can register a hit. And only the team without possession can register a takeaway.

Again, not disagreeing with your overall sentiment, and by the eyetest alone you can see we have a lot of bad, unnecessary giveaways and are getting outhit - I just don't know if those stats are that meaningful when measuring possession.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I want San Jose to win if it's not us. Their style is sickening awesome

I've always rooted for them because Marleau and Thornton get a ton of undue criticism for being heartless when nothing could be further from the truth.

Plus, I always root for non traditional markets with a rabid fanbase who understand and appreciate the sport for what it is. That place is loud, and they love their team and their hockey and quite frankly, live and die by them.

Frankly, if anyone watched that game last night and still doesn't realize why hockey's the greatest sport in the world should punch themselves in the face.

There's a team that's built the right way. Tons of speed, tons of size, and a tons of attitude.

I don't know how any of the chuckleheads in the Pittsburgh media can watch Torres and Brown and think that Tanner ****ing Glass comes close to providing what either of them do.

 

[KIRK]

I've always rooted for them because Marleau and Thornton get a ton of undue criticism for being heartless when nothing could be further from the truth.

Plus, I always root for non traditional markets with a rabid fanbase who understand and appreciate the sport for what it is. That place is loud, and they love their team and their hockey and quite frankly, live and die by them.

Frankly, if anyone watched that game last night and still doesn't realize why hockey's the greatest sport in the world should punch themselves in the face.

There's a team that's built the right way. Tons of speed, tons of size, and a tons of attitude.

I don't know how any of the chuckleheads in the Pittsburgh media can watch Torres and Brown and think that Tanner ****ing Glass comes close to providing what either of them do.

That's a team that isn't afraid to go younger or to sell and buy to get better like last year.

EDIT: Raffi Torres is a dirty SOB who scares the **** out of other players and would help to protect Sid and Geno. There's no place for that in Pittsburgh.

 

[#66]

You don't need an enforcer, but you need big tough and gritty players that can play hockey. San Jose has that.

Yeah but those big guys would never look good on the Pens because their puck management is so bad. With puck management that bad those players would look slow and we would mistakingly think they're garbage... even though they're not.

This team is about "puck get" and not "puck keep". That's a huge issue. This team is about getting to loose pucks, moving their feet and working hard. Role player hockey...Those are just good habits... you don't base your entire way of playing around that.

My biggest issues with the Pens are what they do with the puck. Its the same unstructured, unsupported, freelance BS, blaze attitude that does them in every year. This goes back to the Jagr/ Lemieux era... so you know where that horse **** comes from.

Crosby is not only getting manhandled but he is getting owned by Dubinsky up and down the ice. Think about that and let that sit in... OWNED by Dubinsky. This isn't exactly the Bruins. Owned by CBJ and Dubinsky.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah but those big guys would never look good on the Pens because their puck management is so bad. With puck management that bad those players would look slow and we would mistakingly think they're garbage... even though they're not.

This team is about "puck get" and not "puck keep". That's a huge issue. This team is about getting to loose pucks, moving their feet and working hard. Role player hockey...Those are just good habits... you don't base your entire way of playing around that.

My biggest issues with the Pens are what they do with the puck. Its the same unstructured, unsupported, freelance BS, blaze attitude that does them in every year. This goes back to the Jagr/ Lemieux era... so you know where that horse **** comes from.

Crosby is not only getting manhandled but he is getting owned by Dubinsky up and down the ice. Think about that and let that sit in... OWNED by Dubinsky. This isn't exactly the Bruins. Owned by CBJ and Dubinsky.

Sid never seemed to get owned like this when this team was about 'puck keep' instead of 'puck get', to borrow two of your phrases.

Heck, as I said elsewhere, Malkin absolutely was flying tonight. Have you ever seen him this ineffectual when he's flying like that?

Forget the points. At the very least, his line should be generating 10+ shots, sustaining offensive zone pressure, etc. They barely tilted the ice.

This whole team is a cluster****. 'Puck get' on a team with Sid and Geno.

 

[Tender Rip]

I agree with your sentiment, but in general, are hits and giveaways a good measure of possession?

I don't believe I argued that they were? Rather those stats were indicative of who are making themselves harder to play, also when we take the different styles of play into account.

What I am interested in when talking possession is that our style of play should fit out roster; and more importantly we have to make sure that the fits we have on the respective lines fit with our best players tendencies and put them in a position to success. I think I have given a lot of reasons why I believe we are all at sea in that respect.

Further, I argue that the only way this team can genuinely become a very successful possession team is by 1: making sure that Geno has help doing what he can do; he is a one man possession army when playing well (as he is now), but he is neutered offensively if he has to do all the grind work himself and also create and finish. 2: Employ speed rather than the sad excuse for hockey players such as Glass (and Adams, despite a very good 1st period today... too much sucktitude on too many nights).
3: I suppose this is actually by far the most important thing.... I believe our team is dramatically under coached or poorly coached as regards having well drilled schemes for outletting the puck from D, transition through the neutral zone with support, zone entries and cohesion between F and D when attempting a cycle or forecheck.... I mean basically any kind of systematic approach to manufacturing offense in any other scenario than rush offense/feasting on turnovers appears absent.

You cannot win against good teams like that in the playoffs.

NB: The flip side when saying under coached is that past players believe our defensive system is super complex, and that just astounds me as it certainly does not seem very elaborate how we exit out zone. Rather it seems confused or extremely simplistic when we just fire it up the wall whenever there's pressure.

 

[Freeptop]

I will try to explain in a different way. Maybe it will help.

Put very simply, "the book" on the penguins is to turn the game into a chippy war of a game. It negates our skill, and we lack the means to succeed in that type of game due to personnel and attitude. It is the kind of hockey we are least well equipped to play.

Unfortunately, the way playoff hockey is called (and i personally say thank god it is this way) it is very easy to turn a game into this knock down - drag out style. Suddenly special teams are 50% of the game, there is little flow, and systems are out the window. You can walk away all you want, the game won't be a clean, smooth, open game.

The best teams, and forgive my aggressive obviousness, can win in many different types of games. Clean systems games, skill games, low scoring, barn burners, and wars. I say especially wars, because watch any series and compare it to the regular season. Rarely is intensity, checking, agitation, effort, or anything else reduced. Its why the cup is so hard to win.

In these discussions, those saying we need toughness get backed into a corner where the argument is reduced to "a goon to fight doesn't stop X". And here the non-toughness people are correct. One fighter doesn't change everything. Not even team toughness changes EVERYTHING. But its about "the book" on the team.

Rivalries 100 years old aside (montreal for ex.), No team game-planning the bruins, ducks, flyers, St Louis go in saying. "lets make this a gritty, physical, game" "Lets poke the bear and turn this into a slugfest". Its not a good idea, not a good strategy, and even the players will acknowledge.....yeah i dont want my ass kicked for a minimum of 4 games.

Against the penguins, its exactly the opposite. Lets make this an unskilled game, because they suck at it, it frustrates them, and there is nothing they can really do to respond (no deterrent). The pens PP isn't going to go 3-5 every game, so this gives us our best shot to win the series. Shero has had years to add inexpensive pieces who could help this. The games will still get chippy, but we should be better equipped to play that way.

Hopefully this makes sense, and adds some clarity. I hope you don't say "BUT THE FLYERS SUCK". If so your reading comp is horrible and you missed the part about being able to win any type of game. The flyers are lacking in other departments.

The detroit points earlier fit this well. They go about their own way, but they can win the chippy game, they also can win the skill games (more so with zetts). Hence, they tend to do well.

I agree with everything you wrote here, and it lines up with the things I've written previously in this thread, so I'm not sure why you were jumping to conclusions about how I'd respond.

Last night's game is a perfect example of what I've been saying: the Pens need to be more "tough" in that they need to be willing to simply take the hit to make the play. They didn't do that. They tried to just chip the puck out of the zone instead of retain possession, seemingly so they wouldn't get hit. By simply being content to throw the puck away, the Blue Jackets repeatedly got the puck back and were able to immediately re-enter the zone. None of that would be changed by any sort of "enforcer" of any type, which is the sole argument I've been trying to make.

Yeah but those big guys would never look good on the Pens because their puck management is so bad. With puck management that bad those players would look slow and we would mistakingly think they're garbage... even though they're not.

This team is about "puck get" and not "puck keep". That's a huge issue. This team is about getting to loose pucks, moving their feet and working hard. Role player hockey...Those are just good habits... you don't base your entire way of playing around that.

My biggest issues with the Pens are what they do with the puck. Its the same unstructured, unsupported, freelance BS, blaze attitude that does them in every year. This goes back to the Jagr/ Lemieux era... so you know where that horse **** comes from.

Crosby is not only getting manhandled but he is getting owned by Dubinsky up and down the ice. Think about that and let that sit in... OWNED by Dubinsky. This isn't exactly the Bruins. Owned by CBJ and Dubinsky.

Thank you. That's the point I've been trying (and failing) to make.

That point is why I've finally changed my mind about Bylsma.