Intensity, possession and being hard to play

Tender Rip

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So... after two games in Pittsburgh, the six Penguins D-men have combined for 9 hits total. Brooks and Niskanen leading the way with 3 each. For comparisons sake Columbus D is listed with 22.

Our D is listed for 0 takeaways, and 10 giveaways.
Columbus is listed for 2 takeaways and 2 giveaways.

Beyond the eye test, one could suggest that this says a lot about who is trying to make themselves harder to play.

As for the forwards... it is of course much, much worse.
Our strength down the middle is based on having the puck, not our centers suffocating opposition and beating them up. Crosby, Malking, Sutter combines for three hits, and we know that none of them dominate that way. Hence, in the best of times, it has been the wingers who supplied that kind of intensity for them, in order to open ice for our talent and we should have been getting players in support for them who could do that.
Kunitz and Stempniak do it. Bennett a little bit. Neal occasionally puts in a big hit, but isn't a consistent checker at all. Dubinsky and Boone Jenner have more hits between them (29) than our top 9 combined. Only our 4th line is hitting frequently and that is as a consequence of them not having the puck, virtually ever.

Our forwards have 12 giveaways (Sid with 6 of them) and are noted for 7 takeaways. For Columbus these numbers are 2 giveaways and 8 takeaways. If anything I think our giveaway totals there are very generous, but of course it tells you a lot.

So, the above would be sort of OK if we were the ones owning possession, but we don't. Despite being the team chasing more, we are outhit almost by a 2/1 ratio, and we give away possession much cheaper than Columbus when we have it. Obviously because they stress us much more and much better than we do them.

A lot of this is roster composition and conscious choices from our coaching staff though. Moreover, it has been called, predicted... call it what you will... for a long, long time in advance.
If Sid/Malkin don't make offense happen by themselves and through the PP, we are a ****** team. Given the roster we have, that is just a sick, sick fact.

The only thing one can do about this is to try desperately to make adjustments to make us able to maintain possession better and stress the opponent with the weapons we do have. We cannot match their physical forecheck because our team isn't like that. Hence we have to maintain the puck and evade their forecheck. We cannot batter their D with our forwards consistently, so we have to stretch them with speed. Moreoever, we have to make sure that our top players are in a position to be effective.

This mans - before anything else- that Jokinen must be removed from Geno's line in order to give them a chance at winning battles and keeping possession of the puck in the offensive zone.

With Crosby I don't know... I suppose it would be crazy not to retry Gibbons on his RW with how he started yesterday, but in the end I think Stempniak ends up there as a fixture and Bennett on Malkin's LW, or vice-versa.

But no matter the lineup choices, prioritizing possession also means making sure that there is puck support - both when we bring the puck out of defense, and that we then get the puck deep with a purpose - ie. we put the puck deep in locations where a fellow forward will expect the dump in to come so he can chase it, and with the third forward moving up to support that area and take advantage of cut backs or forced turnovers. We cannot just rely on the stretch pass or neutral zone rushes as our avenues for creating offense. I know, I know.... would have been nice if this was not a realization coming to Dan in the playoffs.

With Stempniak and Bennett needed in other positions.... It is a shame to switch up Sutter's line now that it looks a positive, but ultimately that has very little significance if insuring his lines solidity prevents getting the top6 right.

Prioritizing possession should also mean getting more size and snarl on D while insuring that there are at least two pairings that can support our top6 at all times. If Letang was not a wreck perhaps this would be the case already, but clearly he is and Scuds is just too poor to be played right now. I have absolutely no doubt that Despres-Bortuzzo would be an upgrade on present Scuderi-Letang. That could of course be considered sad when thinking about cap issues next season.... or it could be considered a major opportunity...

I'd insert anyone with pace and hustle instead of Gladams, but I would also welcome Pyatt if the other two players were Vitale and Megna for instance. Enough hustle there to cover for Pyatt's skating and that line could cycle and create havoc in front of the net like a good 4th line should.

Ultimately however, whichever lineup we play, there has to be a plan for how we are trying to manufacture offense that fits to the lines and material we have. As MtlPen put it in his his great post yesterday - we are confused and in-between strategies, trying to play a type of hockey we do not have the resources for, and in several instances we are keeping players out who would be better at that type of hockey than guys who are playing.

We are a mess, but we are a mess of our own making. Rather than trying to mix and match to maximize our strengths however, we actively inflate our problems. We have done so for several years, and really that is the main reason I soured on Byslma four years ago and simply loath him today.
 

Til the End of Time

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we should just be happy that sid and malkin were able to win one cup. that is something to enjoy and cherish, that can never be taken away from them.

crosby and malkins prime years will be ending soon. the cup window is closing and may already be closed. there are a few more years of prime sid/malkin which could have been spent making cup runs had shero/bylsma been willing to dump old loser non-critical players (letang, fleury, orpik, dupuis, adams, etc.). had the pens not be so in love with these clowns, they could have gotten a goalie with upside like bob, schneider, fasth, or bernier, guys like despres/bortuzzo would have the experience to be playoff veterans, and they could have acquired some young hungry forwards. but instead the pens are stuck with an awful supporting cast that has very very limited upside and will almost surely be declining quite soon, with little impact talent on the way.

this organization is screwed and they deserve their fate. i hope crosby and malkin request trades and go to a non-embarrassing competent organization.
 

Finesse

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this organization is screwed and they deserve their fate. i hope crosby and malkin request trades and go to a non-embarrassing competent organization.

assuming things continue to trend downward, how many seasons do you think it will take before one of them does request a trade? do you have a theory on either of their shelf-lives in a pens sweater?
 

MtlPenFan

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assuming things continue to trend downward, how many seasons do you think it will take before one of them does request a trade? do you have a theory on either of their shelf-lives in a pens sweater?

Neither of them will request a trade.

You know what would feel like a trade? Getting rid of Bylsma and his entire "staff", and getting rid of everyone else not named Bennett, Maatta, Despres, Bortuzzo, Niskanen, and Neal.

The uniform will be the same, but a new coach and a bunch of different faces in the locker room would be pretty much on par with being sent to another team.
 

billybudd

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About the "tough to play against" vis a vis the coaching staff as it pertains to the forwards...I'm not really sure it's the case that not being tough to play against is a choice, per se, based on the parts available to them.

Realistically, they don't have the right guys to be tough to play against. Glass probably fits that mold better than anyone, but he's the very definition of a mendoza line player. And he's only one guy.

I'm sure someone will mention Megna or Zolnierczyk, but based on what I saw from each of them in the last Flyers game (scrabblename backing down every time he was confronted and Megna looking terrified on the bench due to the threats of Claude friggin Giroux), back against the wall, neither has the right mental makeup. They probably aren't big enough, strong enough or mean enough to do the job, anyway.

"Tough to play against" is something that needs to be done by committee. I don't think there are enough guys in this organization with NHL talent to pull it off. Ideally, I'd want seven or eight guys who

a) take no prisoners,
b) are humongous mutants
or
c) grow a foot when they're playing with a) and b)

out of the twelve forwards.

They don't all have to be Eric Godard, but there's a sort of guy between a Godard and a Sutter that will take no **** and brook no quarter if and only if there are enough other nasty guys surrounding him*. Apart from Sill, I'm not sure we have any of those, either, at least among guys who have a theoretical NHL future.

There's no way, in my mind, the coaching staff can cobble together that many guys like that and still be icing anything close to an NHL roster. Not if Capgeek's contract listing is accurate. And upcoming free agency doesn't seem to have many either.

Trading all those picks seems to have caught up with Shero. You get guys like that in the third round. Short of trading a member of the so-called "core" for depth, I don't know how to fix this. The sorts of guys that could theoretically be available and fit the bill are either old (Rupp) or have some serious flaw (Michael Haley, who is an unpredictable, probably uncoachable loose cannon).

*I don't believe Zolsgosgbg to be one of this type either, based on what I saw from him in a Flyers' uniform. He'll act the part, but if you gut check him, he flunks the test.
 
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Tender Rip

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About the "tough to play against" vis a vis the coaching staff as it pertains to the forwards...I'm not really sure it's the case that not being tough to play against is a choice, per se, based on the parts available to them.

Realistically, they don't have the right guys to be tough to play against. Glass probably fits that mold better than anyone, but he's the very definition of a mendoza line player. And he's only one guy.

I'm sure someone will mention Megna or Zolnierczyk, but based on what I saw from each of them in the last Flyers game (scrabblename backing down every time he was confronted and Megna looking terrified on the bench due to the threats of Claude friggin Giroux), back against the wall, neither has the right mental makeup. They probably aren't big enough, strong enough or mean enough to do the job, anyway.

"Tough to play against" is something that needs to be done by committee. I don't think there are enough guys in this organization with NHL talent to pull it off. Ideally, I'd want seven or eight guys who

a) take no prisoners,
b) are humongous mutants
or
c) grow a foot when they're playing with a) and b)

out of the twelve forwards.

They don't all have to be Eric Godard, but there's a sort of guy between a Godard and a Sutter that will take no **** and brook no quarter if and only if there are enough other nasty guys surrounding him*. Apart from Sill, I'm not sure we have any of those, either, at least among guys who have a theoretical NHL future.

There's no way, in my mind, the coaching staff can cobble together that many guys like that and still be icing anything close to an NHL roster. Not if Capgeek's contract listing is accurate. And upcoming free agency doesn't seem to have many either.

Trading all those picks seems to have caught up with Shero. Short of trading a member of the so-called "core" for depth, I don't know how to fix this. The sorts of guys that could theoretically be available and fit the bill are either old (Rupp) or have some serious flaw (Michael Haley, who is an unpredictable, probably uncoachable loose cannon).

*I don't believe Zolsgosgbg to be one of this type either, based on what I saw from him in a Flyers' uniform. He'll act the part, but if you gut check him, he flunks the test.

I agree with you that it is not really possible for us to become 'tough to play' given your definitions. I would also say that we are likely not disagreeing much about how we would ideally want the bottom 6 to look in the future to make us such a team.

But the point is that trying to make us tough to play now equates to making us easy to beat, because the those guys offering the most on that score for this team are pretty much the worst forwards on the team, and as a team we cannot back up any kind of truculence on a shift to shift basis either.
Pyatt Vitale Megna... or Harry Z Vitale Megna to use your example... they are not going to meet your 'tough to play' criteria, but surely they will be more DIFFICULT to play; spend more time on the puck and in the oppositions end... and maybe even ... gasp.... score a goal, compared to our current 4th line! We cannot back up truculence, but we can throw speed at teams four lines deep - and support it from our D, if we chose the players who fit such a strategy.

Further, we are in the playoffs and it is pointless thinking about assets who couldn't possibly be here before next season.
Instead the coach' job has to be making the most effective team possible with the resources at hand. I think we can become must more difficult to beat; which is partly making sure that our primary weapons are in a better place to be their best. That is not just a roster/line mates thing - it is also about our way of playing, which has of course been questioned for a long time as being fully unsuited to the roster we have today.
 

KIRK

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Great stuff TR.

I'd run Kunitz, Neal, Beau, and Stemps in different combos and with both Sid and Geno. Then, I'd put Sid and Geno together a bit, and with guys like Beau or Stemps even. I'd chuck Sid and Geno out with Joey V and the third liners. Third line of JJ-Sutter-Gibby. Never have them skate with Gladams.

If we're going down, then give Sid and Geno a chance to do it the right way. 24 minutes each. Play in all situations.

As for the systemic and defensive issues, only a coaching change will resolve those things. But, until then, I'd like to see how Sid and Geno could do with only one arm tied behind their backs instead of two.
 

Tender Rip

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Great stuff TR.

I'd run Kunitz, Neal, Beau, and Stemps in different combos and with both Sid and Geno. Then, I'd put Sid and Geno together a bit, and with guys like Beau or Stemps even. I'd chuck Sid and Geno out with Joey V and the third liners. Third line of JJ-Sutter-Gibby. Never have them skate with Gladams.

If we're going down, then give Sid and Geno a chance to do it the right way. 24 minutes each. Play in all situations.

As for the systemic and defensive issues, only a coaching change will resolve those things. But, until then, I'd like to see how Sid and Geno could do with only one arm tied behind their backs instead of two.

It might just be the two of us who could agree on this solution, but I consider it a given that we have no one more energetic, harder on forechecking/puck pressure or better at faceoffs than Joe Vitale. It would be easier if Goc was back considering the C situation, but put him next to Malkin as the Talbot Redux. Talbot was a better player, but then again Neal is much better than Fedotenko was. Vitale is faster than Talbot and better on draws.

At least it is too obvious a potential match to not try it out. Winning more draws offers more possession, having a great forechecker helps establish more zone time, and to add to this Vitale is always driving the net when he gets in position to (rare still of course, as his line doesn't have the puck in the offensive zone more than 60 seconds a game or so).
 

KIRK

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It might just be the two of us who could agree on this solution, but I consider it a given that we have no one more energetic, harder on forechecking/puck pressure or better at faceoffs than Joe Vitale. It would be easier if Goc was back considering the C situation, but put him next to Malkin as the Talbot Redux. Talbot was a better player, but then again Neal is much better than Fedotenko was. Vitale is faster than Talbot and better on draws.

At least it is too obvious a potential match to not try it out. Winning more draws offers more possession, having a great forechecker helps establish more zone time, and to add to this Vitale is always driving the net when he gets in position to (rare still of course, as his line doesn't have the puck in the offensive zone more than 60 seconds a game or so).

Agree 100% on Joey V. Heck, throw HIM out not just with Geno but with Sid and Geno.

I think they'd feed off that positively, the same way Sid feeds off perimeter Kunitz and Geno feeds off laziness on his wings negatively.

That's also why I like Beau with Geno and Neal, because Geno seems to feed off Beau's youth and enthusiasm.

As I keep saying, Therrien had reached his expiration and had a lot of faults. But, he got where his bread was buttered, and there were no sacred veteran cows if it meant helping Sid or Geno.

What I always thought this would be was a team built around Sid and Geno and defined by young energy. It instead has become an homage to borderline NHL vets and David Poile where Sid and Geno are just kind of along for the ride. I don't even know how to describe it anymore, but I'm not sure I trust ownership and management to implement the half dozen changes this team so desperately needs.

Oh well, as I said in another thread, I look at Sid and Geno and see a Greek tragedy. Sorry for the tangent. So depressing. Even to think that none of Beau, Stemps, or Joey V sniffed a shift with Geno, even with the shortened bench. Gladams yes. Guys who may have helped Geno no. Same for Sid.:cry:
 

billybudd

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I agree with you that it is not really possible for us to become 'tough to play' given your definitions. I would also say that we are likely not disagreeing much about how we would ideally want the bottom 6 to look in the future to make us such a team.

But the point is that trying to make us tough to play now equates to making us easy to beat, because the those guys offering the most on that score for this team are pretty much the worst forwards on the team, and as a team we cannot back up any kind of truculence on a shift to shift basis either.
Pyatt Vitale Megna... or Harry Z Vitale Megna to use your example... they are not going to meet your 'tough to play' criteria, but surely they will be more DIFFICULT to play; spend more time on the puck and in the oppositions end... and maybe even ... gasp.... score a goal, compared to our current 4th line! We cannot back up truculence, but we can throw speed at teams four lines deep - and support it from our D, if we chose the players who fit such a strategy.

Further, we are in the playoffs and it is pointless thinking about assets who couldn't possibly be here before next season.
Instead the coach' job has to be making the most effective team possible with the resources at hand. I think we can become must more difficult to beat; which is partly making sure that our primary weapons are in a better place to be their best. That is not just a roster/line mates thing - it is also about our way of playing, which has of course been questioned for a long time as being fully unsuited to the roster we have today.

Instead of trying to be tough to play against in the traditional sense (which Adams used to be and Glass barely is), you're suggesting, maybe to deploy speed and confusion as a sort of surrogate for something we need but can't do. Wear their lungs out instead of bruise their muscles/psyche.

Well, anything's worth a shot after seven months of this garbage from the bottom lines. Adams, in particular, is contributing nothing positive, but I don't expect it would work, because even our speed guys aren't all that great at being speed guys, imo.

Zolnierczyk, in particular, has no idea where his linemates are ever. Megna's better with that, but I don't know by how much. And Vitale hasn't done us any favors since rejoining the lineup.

Worst case scenario, you have three guys flying up the ice, making a pass to nobody (scrabblename loves to do this) then chasing it right back into our own end and blowing reads back there.

That said, status quo probably isn't any less problematic than the worst-case scenario with a Megna-Vitale-Zoln unit. But even in a best-case, we're looking at 8 minutes of hustle out of 60. Again, better than zero, but I'm not sure by how much.
 

KIRK

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Instead of trying to be tough to play against in the traditional sense (which Adams used to be and Glass barely is), you're suggesting, maybe to deploy speed and confusion as a sort of surrogate for something we need but can't do. Wear their lungs out instead of bruise their muscles/psyche.

Well, anything's worth a shot after seven months of this garbage from the bottom lines. Adams, in particular, is contributing nothing positive, but I don't expect it would work, because even our speed guys aren't all that great at being speed guys, imo.

Zolnierczyk, in particular, has no idea where his linemates are ever. Megna's better with that, but I don't know by how much. And Vitale hasn't done us any favors since rejoining the lineup.

Worst case scenario, you have three guys flying up the ice, making a pass to nobody (scrabblename loves to do this) then chasing it right back into our own end and blowing reads back there.

That said, status quo probably isn't any less problematic than the worst-case scenario with a Megna-Vitale-Zoln unit. But even in a best-case, we're looking at 8 minutes of hustle out of 60. Again, better than zero, but I'm not sure by how much.

The energy will be infectious. Kunitz is a perimeter guy. JJ and Neal play soft. It infects Sid and Geno negatively the same way Kunitz and Talbot positively infected them in 2009.

You know, that was one of the things that made the Pens special before they won the cup. The energy was infectious. The guys infected one another. Heck, as a fan, an older one, even I'd get jazzed hours before games.

That spirit doesn't go away overnight. It took 5 years for Bylsma and Shero to kill it. But, it didn't take long to build it. Any step in the right direction, like something as innocuous and counterintuitive as Talbot in 2009, can be the spark.
 

Tender Rip

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Honest question billybud... How much more could you expect from Vitale in the situation he is in/the linemates he has (considering your 'no favors' line).

He is out there with the 4th line and PK exclusively, hasn't been scored on, leads the team in hits and faceoff percentage with no turnovers.

I'd also say for the record that we have consistently disagreed on the usefulness of Gibbons and Sutter (and Megna), and the former two have certainly been very much positive factors in these first two playoff games. Not to say 'I'm right' but to underline how in the absence of other desirable options, we should go with those who COULD hurt the opposition rather than those we know can't.
 

KIRK

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Honest question billybud... How much more could you expect from Vitale in the situation he is in/the linemates he has (considering your 'no favors' line).

He is out there with the 4th line and PK exclusively, hasn't been scored on, leads the team in hits and faceoff percentage with no turnovers.

I'd also say for the record that we have consistently disagreed on the usefulness of Gibbons and Sutter (and Megna), and the former two have certainly been very much positive factors in these first two playoff games. Not to say 'I'm right' but to underline how in the absence of other desirable options, we should go with those who COULD hurt the opposition rather than those we know can't.

TR, do you think Sid and Geno can feed off guys like Beau, Megna, Vitale like they used to feed off Talbot and Army?

Remember when Recchi used to act like Orpik? Do as I say, not as I do. Therrien killed that. Favoured Talbot over Moore like we wish Sill and Scrabbles had been favored over Gladams?

I miss that. I wonder how much Sid and Geno miss that too. Seriously, day the Pens won the cup is the day it stopped being about Sid and Geno and started being about Bylsma's ego and being Nashville.
 

Tender Rip

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TR, do you think Sid and Geno can feed off guys like Beau, Megna, Vitale like they used to feed off Talbot and Army?

Unfortunately I don't think it is as likely. First of all Talbot and Army were special characters who seemed to exude more leadership qualities and win respect simply because of their qualities in the room.
Second they were both older than Sid and Geno and got used to being around them when they were still rookies. It is harder for unknown quantities to not simply be 'followers' now compared to the situation back then, IMO.

That said, it doesn't change that in our present situation, it should absolutely be attempted.
 

billybudd

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Honest question billybud... How much more could you expect from Vitale in the situation he is in/the linemates he has (considering your 'no favors' line).

He is out there with the 4th line and PK exclusively, hasn't been scored on, leads the team in hits and faceoff percentage with no turnovers.

I'd also say for the record that we have consistently disagreed on the usefulness of Gibbons and Sutter (and Megna), and the former two have certainly been very much positive factors in these first two playoff games. Not to say 'I'm right' but to underline how in the absence of other desirable options, we should go with those who COULD hurt the opposition rather than those we know can't.

Regarding Vitale, he hasn't done a great job at moving his feet since coming back. Not sure what his injury was, so that could explain it, but if he's not flying around at a million miles per hour every shift, his usefulness is limited.

Sutter's been a lot better lately. He's not what I want in a bottom sixer, but he's here and at least doing something, which was better than the nothing he had been for the previous season and half season. Still, if you have to try and trade a guy to get him to move his feet and show any degree of battle, that's a huge medium and long-term problem, imo.

The reason I do not believe in Gibbons is that he's just too small. He was very effective for 1 & 1/6 of a playoff game, but now he's out, probably with a concussion, on a fairly typical reverse hit that would have been harmless and straight to the shoulder of any player 4-10 inches taller. That blank roster spot didn't really help them in the 2 periods he spent in a dark room.
 

Tender Rip

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Regarding Vitale, he hasn't done a great job at moving his feet since coming back. Not sure what his injury was, so that could explain it, but if he's not flying around at a million miles per hour every shift, his usefulness is limited.

Not really seeing what you see. Lets move on to the next with the mutual understanding that whatever ailment he has, what he has been doing in the first two games is a hell of a lot less negative than Adams/Glass, yes?

Sutter's been a lot better lately. He's not what I want in a bottom sixer, but he's here and at least doing something, which was better than the nothing he had been for the previous season and half season. Still, if you have to try and trade a guy to get him to move his feet and show any degree of battle, that's a huge medium and long-term problem, imo.

Either way, I think the problem with Sutter as well as the reason for why he now looks better, is entirely in his linemates and what that means for how the line can play. He does all the same things he always did. He is not suddenly winning more battles on the wall and he certainly isn't playing the body on anybody.
With crap attached to him, his skills just weren't very effective save for the odd breakaway. Personally I am totally fine with dealing Sutter for an upgrade somewhere in the off-season if we could retain Goc for the 3C position or find someone even better suited to the team, but I still maintain that Sutter will be a good asset for us if we play capable and complimentary players with him.

The reason I do not believe in Gibbons is that he's just too small. He was very effective for 1 & 1/6 of a playoff game, but now he's out, probably with a concussion, on a fairly typical reverse hit that would have been harmless and straight to the shoulder of any player 4-10 inches taller. That blank roster spot didn't really help them in the 2 periods he spent in a dark room.

Unfair IMO. Gibbons has played 41 games this season, and this was pretty much his only injury sustained after a hit. At least that I can remember. Bad break, could happen to anyone.
 

KIRK

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Unfortunately I don't think it is as likely. First of all Talbot and Army were special characters who seemed to exude more leadership qualities and win respect simply because of their qualities in the room.
Second they were both older than Sid and Geno and got used to being around them when they were still rookies. It is harder for unknown quantities to not simply be 'followers' now compared to the situation back then, IMO.

That said, it doesn't change that in our present situation, it should absolutely be attempted.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Not comparing situations. Thinking more of when Beau played with Geno and Neal for two games last year. Only two he looked like Geno, against Philly and Toronto no less. I just think Geno saw how Beau worked and was doing things to help him get to HIS game, and I think Geno fed off that.

Shifts with Gladams. Sid out shift after shift with perimeter Kunitz. Geno out shift after shift on his do it yourself line. Heck, how can you not come to be defeated and lost, especially after three plus years of the same garbage.

I think Sid and Geno like the youthful energy. I think it could help pick them up.

You know, this almost reminds me of the end of the Oilers dynasty. Except its not ownership's wallet and a star wanting more that did it. This is 100% self inflicted, by a culture from ownership saying be like hockey should be, not as it is. By a GM who refuses to build around his stars and has failed miserably to leverage his monetary and draft assets. By a coach more concerned with winning his way than with empowering his stars to lead the team to victory. And by a bunch of useless vets empowered to hijack what once was a team and two generational talents with so much promise.

Honestly, I wonder if only Mario can stop this, except then I remember that he's one of the culprits in this Greek tragedy.

So sad. I was less depressed when Jagr and Kovy were sold. I'd drive to sports bars to watch the X generation get their rears kicked. But, I could understand that. I could hope for better days. This is different. So much complacency. So little hope. The fan in me really is sad for Sid and Geno. Generational talents undone not by the competition or even horrible injuries but chiefly by consequence of where they were drafted.
 

Terrapin

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1,382
One simple thing that could instantly make this team tougher to play against is the team, as a whole, stop giving a **** what the media, the fans, and likely even ownership thinks of them. All we heard for years is Sid and Geno get suckered into the rough stuff. yes, that's bad. But it's also the way they are. They've been getting into scrums since they came into the league. It gets them fired up. Now they look like two zombies. Neal gets called out by the media, and proceeds to disappear for 3 weeks. Orpik gets suckered by Thorton, the media calls out Orpik for not fighting, Orpik's thrown one big check since.

You can play tough, physical, and on the line without going over it. These guys go from one extreme to the other, and neither is beneficial. Get back to who you are and what you do, and hopefully that 'don't give a ****' attitude rubs off on everyone.

I'm not sure I"m explaining this right (it's early)
 

Tender Rip

Wears long pants
Feb 12, 2007
17,999
5,221
Shanghai, China
One simple thing that could instantly make this team tougher to play against is the team, as a whole, stop giving a **** what the media, the fans, and likely even ownership thinks of them. All we heard for years is Sid and Geno get suckered into the rough stuff. yes, that's bad. But it's also the way they are. They've been getting into scrums since they came into the league. It gets them fired up. Now they look like two zombies. Neal gets called out by the media, and proceeds to disappear for 3 weeks. Orpik gets suckered by Thorton, the media calls out Orpik for not fighting, Orpik's thrown one big check since.

You can play tough, physical, and on the line without going over it. These guys go from one extreme to the other, and neither is beneficial. Get back to who you are and what you do, and hopefully that 'don't give a ****' attitude rubs off on everyone.

I'm not sure I"m explaining this right (it's early)

Well, I think we all subscribe to that as being an organizational adjustment to make for next season - including free agency.
Hardly something that makes any difference now, as we don't have anyone who can really make opposition second guess themselves or have been refraining from gtting in opponents faces.

I suppose there's Bortuzzo, but a 'silk gloves off' approach isn't going to change any of our starting forwards.
 

AjaxTelamon

Registered User
Jul 8, 2011
6,071
1,826
I really thought that this low cap year would force Shero and DB's hand into playing their young, hungry D men. Despres is the one guy who brings snarl and the skating and outlet pass that this team needs, and he's #8 or #9 on our depth chart. Bort brings nastiness and more consistent physical play than Orpik. Yet both sit. And I love the pickup of Stemp and Goc. And whether you think Megna or Gibbons are a long term solution to anything, they play with speed and urgency.

But we'll never know if this roster can compete because DB is horribly misusing his resources, and Shero has once again given him a few toys he can't help but abuse (Scuds, Orpik, Engo, Adams, Glass, Kobe).

So in this critical offseason, Shero needs to get rid of DB and some of these useless players, close this chapter of mediocrity, and bring in a new regime. If he doesn't, then Shero needs to go too.
 

StutzlesTapeJob

Registered User
Dec 22, 2008
1,163
80
Been saying this would continue to be our demise in my limited posts this year. We lack the size on our roster to be imposing, we also lack the mentality to win in the trenches.

Even with the right players, if the team as a whole played in this current "system" (if we can even call it that), i wouldnt expect it to work. We try to play an overly professional game, which just doesn't align with playoff hockey.

This dubi situation is a great example. Props to him. Effort and results out the bum to reward the efforts. But why is it so easy for him to play this way? we don't need goddard or JLR to KO him. But if your going to play the game Dubi is playing, it should be returned to you (and your team) in kind. Playoffs are a war. And right now (and for the past few years) we haven't had soldiers willing to do what it takes to win.
 

NastyNick

Registered User
Sep 7, 2007
3,832
178
Pittsburgh
The Penguins take more abuse then any team in the league.. easily. Wherever they find themselves on a game night, that opponent instantly turns the game into a campaign against Crosby. And if its a road game, the opposing crowd just feeds into it. There are very few easy nights if your a Penguin. Why does it feel like this team has it easier when Crosby is injured? Probably because its less of a motivator for the opponent.

Moreso then any other team, the Penguins need to be a tough team. They can't be small and soft. They'll get injured or worn out.. just like they have this year. Every opponent gets it up to beat the Penguins when Crosby is in the lineup. Shero needs to build a team that can not only take the abuse, but be the aggressor too. They need a 4th line that will fight. A few a-holes like Cooke and Ruutu too. Most of all they need someone on Crosby and Kunitz wing who will step up for those guys and plant a Dubinsky on his ass. I am really starting to think this is more important than a sniper.
 

Your Boy Troy

Registered User
Sep 19, 2013
2,805
751
Brampton, Ontario
Lack of size, grit, and determination won't get you far. Ray Shero didn't address this issue during the off-season or trade deadline. He is going to suffer the consequences once this team gets eliminated again in the postseason. Even softer teams in the playoffs (i.e. Detroit, Chicago, Dallas, Minnesota, Montreal, New York, San Jose) have players that provide size and grit.

It is very frustrating to see how clueless this organization is. How is this team going to be expected to keep possession of the puck when they're soft and undersized? They are getting outplayed by freakin' Columbus. Imagine if they advance to the next round and they have to play against the Flyers! Pittsburgh has no players besides Sidney Crosby, Chris Kunitz, Taylor Pyatt and Deryk Engelland that are willing to battle in-front of the net. This organization desperately needs a power-forward that is in their prime.

The lack of passion is noticeable as well. The vast majority of the players that are currently on this team aren't willing to stick up for each other. It is pathetic, screw this p***yfed mentality that this team has. I am sure that Sidney Crosby is well aware of the issues regarding this soft organization.


It blows my mind why this team doesn't have an enforcer. Yet, they have a useless piece of **** like Craig Adams on the team.
 

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