Inactive Franchise.

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,983
39,119
colorado
Visit site
1. there's more than fans...Chipman has been lobbying to get the Jets 1.0 history in Winnipeg....He's not a fan...he's a member of the BOG, a popular and well liked one at that. and the BOG has changed the last 20 years...a lot of the old guys who had "all the power", are gone. replaced with corporate drones voted in members from big corporations like Bell media etc... power base4s are shifting...

2. they 100% changed policy... they went from "the franchise is the franchise wherever it goes...to "This TEAM is moving, but the franchise is staying put" how is that not a 1200% reversal on previous business....? how can you even say that's not a change?
Because it’s a clause to get out of a bad situation not a policy they’re embracing moving forward. They’re not trying to change the way we see franchises. They just want the team out of AZ and this was the way. I get it, you want this. I just don’t see it. We’ll see in time but I just don’t think you’re going to get your wish. The logo and team name is the only thing staying put.

The city of Hartford owned the logo and name for 20 years post sale per the agreement. It changed nothing in the way you’re suggesting.
 

Skidooboy

Registered User
Jun 22, 2011
2,226
1,556
L4 Kordylewski Cloud
Because it’s a clause to get out of a bad situation not a policy they’re embracing moving forward. They’re not trying to change the way we see franchises. They just want the team out of AZ and this was the way. I get it, you want this. I just don’t see it. We’ll see in time but I just don’t think you’re going to get your wish. The logo and team name is the only thing staying put.

The city of Hartford owned the logo and name for 20 years post sale per the agreement. It changed nothing in the way you’re suggesting.

again... saying ""It's a clause to get out of a bad situation" is just stringing words together.

again the BOG isn't a monolith...there are power bases and competing ideas. Change happens all the time. this is a change that opens a door for an interested owner like Chipman to say "wait a minute, We just changed rules here . I want to talk about this, since the Yotes are inactive I want to talk about my teams history and Jets 1.0. history. Lets make all shuttered franchises INACTIVE" and give the owner that puts a franchise back the same option we just gave Murello".

with all the news about a return to Atlanta , Phoenix's issues, and teams like Dallas, the Canes etc...it's a great time to engage the fans and share the REAL history of hockey in many cities,

there were reports the BOG were unhappy with a couple of the farcical callbacks in Phoenix watching confused fans hoist banners with strangers names on them....we also know AZ walked away from those names and records as an organization and do not publicise Jets legacy players at all now...

what makes you think it's problematic to just move some pages in the record book around....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Guardian17

bleedgreen

Registered User
Dec 8, 2003
23,983
39,119
colorado
Visit site
again... saying ""It's a clause to get out of a bad situation" is just stringing words together.

again the BOG isn't a monolith...there are power bases and competing ideas. Change happens all the time. this is a change that opens a door for an interested owner like Chipman to say "wait a minute, We just changed rules here . I want to talk about this, since the Yotes are inactive I want to talk about my teams history and Jets 1.0. history. Lets make all shuttered franchises INACTIVE" and give the owner that puts a franchise back the same option we just gave Murello".

with all the news about a return to Atlanta , Phoenix's issues, and teams like Dallas, the Canes etc...it's a great time to engage the fans and share the REAL history of hockey in many cities,

there were reports the BOG were unhappy with a couple of the farcical callbacks in Phoenix watching confused fans hoist banners with strangers names on them....we also know AZ walked away from those names and records as an organization and do not publicise Jets legacy players at all now...

what makes you think it's problematic to just move some pages in the record book around....
Just rewriting some history because you don’t like the history? Lol…what’s wrong with that? Az was in a weird spot and they put another team in Winni so the new team could be the ones to acknowledge the past, ok sure. AZ has also been a complete shit show for twenty plus years so I’m not sure they should be the basis of how things should go.

The league is letting AM have a BILLION dollars for his unique situation. You’re not giving all the former owners of the defunct teams that situation obviously, it’s not apples to apples.

You’re right, nothing stops one guy from starting a conversation. Doesn’t mean the conversation actually is happening and that other teams would want it. This is something you want. Like I said I understand. I just don’t think it’s going to happen. I don’t think that they think they rewrote the rules.
 

Skidooboy

Registered User
Jun 22, 2011
2,226
1,556
L4 Kordylewski Cloud
1. Again they did rewrite the rules...
the rules were "Team=Franchise" 100%
now it's Team is the players and staff, team and Franchise equals Records, and Logo and Record"

but I'm done arguing with "nuh unh cuz I say so" soi enjoy your day.
 

PositiveCashFlow

Snowmen fall to earth unassembled
Jul 10, 2007
5,813
2,700
Just don't do this again please

1713212517817.png


 

Drake1588

UNATCO
Sponsor
Jul 2, 2002
30,110
2,508
Northern Virginia
OP, there are no "rules" for expansion, per se. They just make this shit up as they go. It's completely ad hoc.

It's not a deliberate change in policy that is intended to have reverberations across the league. It's a one off that doesn't have implications for other franchises and how their histories do or do not travel with them/remain in the cities in which they occurred. One decision made for an inactive club in the Phoenix market doesn't in any way lead the BOG to decide to retroactively change how the league's other relocated franchises pass along their complicated histories. There isn't a compelling desire for consistent application of a rule (that doesn't exist) or a change in policy (when there was no policy as such to begin with) that requires action now that a so-called precedent is set (this isn't legal jurisprudence and they can be as inconsistent as they like within their little fraternity).

You correctly note that Chipman is pushing for this, but he's one man shouting "who is with me!?" and there's an awkward silence as no one else quite steps up to back his play. There aren't the BOG votes to start swapping history and branding and logo rights around the league between various clubs. There isn't a grass roots movement around the league to do it among most fan bases either, nor in other leagues. It gets complicated fast.

Where's the cutoff line if you start doing this? There is no appetite for what you suggest the league now has to start doing, and no requirement that they rejigger the rest of the league to conform to this specific case study.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cas

rojac

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Apr 5, 2007
13,052
2,936
Waterloo, ON
I'm just going to say what I believe most people are already thinking.

This is really going to be confusing on puckdoku.
Why? Just look at it as if the whole Arizona Coyotes roster was traded for future considerations to the new Utah franchise.
 

BCNate

Registered User
Apr 3, 2016
3,151
3,092
I really think it’s irrelevant. I can’t see any way that PHX has an NHL ready rink within the 5 years.
 

End on a Hinote

Registered Abuser
Aug 22, 2011
4,054
2,146
Northern British Columbia
Wasn’t the first NHL team to win the cup the Toronto Hockey Club in 1918?
IIRC the NHL got sole control of the Cup in '27 when their competing league (forgot name) folded, which then made it the sole top league with its own trophy. So while T.O. was technically the first NHL team to win it, Ottawa was the first team with the NHL having complete ownership of the Cup and as the worlds top league.
 

Skidooboy

Registered User
Jun 22, 2011
2,226
1,556
L4 Kordylewski Cloud
OP, there are no "rules" for expansion, per se. They just make this shit up as they go. It's completely ad hoc.

It's not a deliberate change in policy that is intended to have reverberations across the league. It's a one off that doesn't have implications for other franchises and how their histories do or do not travel with them/remain in the cities in which they occurred. One decision made for an inactive club in the Phoenix market doesn't in any way lead the BOG to decide to retroactively change how the league's other relocated franchises pass along their complicated histories. There isn't a compelling desire for consistent application of a rule (that doesn't exist) or a change in policy (when there was no policy as such to begin with) that requires action now that a so-called precedent is set (this isn't legal jurisprudence and they can be as inconsistent as they like within their little fraternity).

You correctly note that Chipman is pushing for this, but he's one man shouting "who is with me!?" and there's an awkward silence as no one else quite steps up to back his play. There aren't the BOG votes to start swapping history and branding and logo rights around the league between various clubs. There isn't a grass roots movement around the league to do it among most fan bases either, nor in other leagues. It gets complicated fast.

Where's the cutoff line if you start doing this? There is no appetite for what you suggest the league now has to start doing, and no requirement that they rejigger the rest of the league to conform to this specific case study.
citation required...because the Hawerchuk night in Phoenix was reported as being a bit of a sore spot by several members of the BOG.

to your first point..."there are no rules, they just make it up"
exactly...and now they are making new shit up...that 100% flies in the face of EVERY OTHER EXPANSION OR RELOCATION IN LEAGUE HISTORY.

and there WHERE ONCE no others were interested...now there is a change , and maybe an appetite for change....and again the BOG is changing , old guys are leaving, new members joining, Other leagues (NBA,NFL) are already doing things like we are talking about.... why is it insane to think that it is possible to make any non extant team " Inactive" and move some history around? Again... you would think a new team in Atlanta might want some tie to both the Flames and the Thrashers, just like Winnipeg did... and a team lIke the wild might like to hang some conference Champions banners up as well...

the whole Franchise record is as illogical as the changes I propose...
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,940
10,486
Of course, there is one example of this sort of thing being done r3troactively which was the Charlotte Hornets situation which retroactively returned the original Hornets records (frm their Charlotte days) and name to Charlotte from New Orleans and the New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans retroactively becoming an expansion franchise and the Charlotte Bobcats becoming not an expansion franchise but merely a chapter of the Charlotte Hornets franchise.

That is the NBA though, nothing to do with the NHL. If they were going to change the Jets history it would be done already.

The league didn't change how they do things. They are doing a one off thing. Until such time as they change anything else (jets, etc.)_, that is all the proof you need this is a one off situation.
 

GrumpyKoala

Registered User
Aug 11, 2020
2,910
3,120
Hear me out,

-Natural bowl shape
-200,000+ pre-heated seat
-12 *high speed train* minutes away from Phoenix, Vegas
-Lot of room for a shopping center, amusement park, hotel, casino
-Parking all the way up to the bay area

1713216868233.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: 333359

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
7,644
7,313
Regina, Saskatchewan
IIRC the NHL got sole control of the Cup in '27 when their competing league (forgot name) folded, which then made it the sole top league with its own trophy. So while T.O. was technically the first NHL team to win it, Ottawa was the first team with the NHL having complete ownership of the Cup and as the worlds top league.
It would be better to put that the NHL absorbed the WHL (previously WCHL/PCHA, previously PCHA). In the 1925-26 NHL season, there were 7 NHL teams, but when the PCHA was absorbed in it became 10 teams with the 3 new ones being partially transfers from the WHL.

The Victoria Cougars functionally moved to Detroit in 1926, and were known as the Detroit Cougars that season. The players came with the name too. In reality, the Red Wings are a continuation of the Victoria Cougars.

The Chicago Black Hawks took the entirety of the Portland Rosebuds roster as well. In reality, they are a continuation of that team.

The Rangers are a bit different in that they did not just buy out a western team and just signed (mostly) western players.

They were backed by the legendary Bill Cook, in my mind the sport's greatest winger until Maurice Richard in the 1940s. He played for the Saskatoon Sheiks in the WHL the prior season. His brother, Bun Cook, also joined from Saskatoon.

They were joined by an all-time centre, Frank Boucher, who played with the WHL Vancouver Maroons the prior season.

They pulled from other leagues too, but in an era without line changes they pulled 3 of their starting 6 right from the WHL.

The WHL in 1926 was every bit the equal of the NHL. The W(C)HL won the 1925 Stanley Cup.

While the owners in the WHL tried to carry on, their entire rosters were bought out by the NHL. In reality, the 1926 end of the WHL was functionally the NHL absorbing the WHL.
 

Guardian17

Strong & Free
Aug 29, 2010
16,090
23,552
Winnipeg
As a Jets fan I want the Jets 1.0 records returned to Winnipeg and merged with Jets 2.0.

There is precedent for this in the NBA.

Charlotte Hornets 1.0 moved to New Orleans and become the New Orleans Hornets.

Charlotte gets a new expansion team called the Charlotte Bobcats.

New Orleans rebrands as the New Orleans Pelicans.

Michael Jordan purchases the Charlotte Bobcats and rebrands them the Charlotte Hornets 2.0.

Part of the deal was Jordan wanted all the Charlotte Hornets 1.0 records back from New Orleans.

The Charlotte Hornets 1.0 records were merged with the Charlotte Hornets 2.0 records.

The world did not end when this occurred.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,309
138,953
Bojangles Parking Lot
sure except none of that is actually true. you basically made it up.

because the NHL doesn’t have any rules about this.

The rule is and has been “the franchise is the franchise” The Jets aren’t the Jets 1.0 they are the thrashers. The Flames are the Atlanta Flames , The Avs are the Nordiques etc….

now suddenly that isn’t true….

the Coyotes are the Inactive Coyotes … and somehow, Utah is Utah…..with all the coyotes contracts and players and any staff they want, like all previous relocations, but the franchise stays and Utah is NOT a new expansion?

this is a whole new thing for the NHL… and there has been no explanation as to what it means.

as i said… a new precedent. i think a few teams should be lobbying to flip the “franchise history” label right now.

I’m really confused by your response here. I explicitly said the NHL will need to come up with rules for how to handle this, and everything else in that post is most definitely not “made up”. I’ve followed multiple leagues where inactive franchises were a thing, and looked pretty deeply into the minutiae of the 20s/30s NHL and its adventures in franchise movement.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,309
138,953
Bojangles Parking Lot
I think the issue comes down to what exactly is a " Franchise "?

A “franchise” is effectively a permit by the NHL which grants an owner the right to field a team.

This is an important underlying concept, because a franchise is effectively a piece of property. When we say that an owner is selling “the team”, we mean he is selling the franchise and all the assets/debts associated with it. This is a totally separate subject than all this talk about statistical records and retired numbers, which are not actual property to be bought and sold.

Traditionally there are three ways that a franchise can be disconnected from a particular location:

- Relocate, the most common. This leaves the franchise unchanged, though it will mean a lot of changes within the staffing and logistics of the organization.

- Fold, which means the franchise ceases to exist. This absolutely will not be allowed to happen in a modern major league, as a franchise is worth a billion bucks and would always be sold rather than folded.

- Inactive, which essentially means the franchise only exists on paper for a period of time. It carries on as a business entity, but its day-to-day operations cease.

Why go inactive? Sometimes an owner gets into a bad situation where continuing to operate is impractical — such as being kicked out of their arena, or being unable to cover payroll — but has a plan for getting back on their feet at a later time. By going inactive, they keep their franchise and will not have to apply for expansion in order to re-start the business. Depending on the rules at the time, they might also keep certain assets such as players’ contract rights, their brand/logo, rights to the market, voting rights as an owner, and so forth. It’s strongly preferable to folding and losing everything, and in rare cases it makes more sense than selling the franchise to someone else.

There is also the option to merge two teams, but be careful to note that it’s usually the teams being merged and not the franchises. Merging two franchises would imply that the owners have become co-owners of a combined organization. Under normal circumstances, it would be preferable to merge the teams and fold one of the franchises, in order to let a broke owner declare bankruptcy.

If the franchise is indeed inactive and the Utah team is a "new" franchise inheriting the players and hockey ops staff... does that mean when the deal is finalized this summer that the NHL will technically have 33 teams in it?

Yes, technically. But it would be more accurate to say 33 franchises, as “team” implies a bunch of guys playing hockey.

Because they're the same thing. A team can both be reactivated and be an expansion team at the same time.

This has already happened in the NHL before. The Cleveland Barons, formerly the California Golden Seals, went inactive and the league merged the team with the Minnesota North Stars. Then, 13 years later, the franchise was reactivated as the expansion San Jose Sharks.

In the case we’re experiencing, it would make a lot more sense for the NHL to transfer the Merulelo franchise to SLC owners, and then create an expansion franchise for any future Meruelo team. Under the OP’s understanding of this deal, they are effectively giving away a billion-dollar franchise to Meruelo for free, which makes little sense.

It’s possible there are some backroom arrangements at play, perhaps as part of the original effort to find an owner willing to make a go of it in Arizona. Perhaps they effectively promised Meruelo that that he would either succeed with the Yotes, or receive an expansion franchise, thus making his purchase almost bulletproof from financial failure. If that were the case, it could help explain the weirdness of how this all played out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cas and Flukeshot

rojac

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Apr 5, 2007
13,052
2,936
Waterloo, ON
except you are wrong according to all reporting. because if you listen to the “insiders”and reporters? the league is changing the way they have done things.
Or at least they're doing it differently this time. This could represent a change in policy or it could be a one-off as part of these negotiations.
 

Flukeshot

Briere Activate!
Sponsor
Feb 19, 2004
5,159
1,719
Brampton, Ont
A “franchise” is effectively a permit by the NHL which grants an owner the right to field a team.

This is an important underlying concept, because a franchise is effectively a piece of property. When we say that an owner is selling “the team”, we mean he is selling the franchise and all the assets/debts associated with it. This is a totally separate subject than all this talk about statistical records and retired numbers, which are not actual property to be bought and sold.

Traditionally there are three ways that a franchise can be disconnected from a particular location:

- Relocate, the most common. This leaves the franchise unchanged, though it will mean a lot of changes within the staffing and logistics of the organization.

- Fold, which means the franchise ceases to exist. This absolutely will not be allowed to happen in a modern major league, as a franchise is worth a billion bucks and would always be sold rather than folded.

- Inactive, which essentially means the franchise only exists on paper for a period of time. It carries on as a business entity, but its day-to-day operations cease.

Why go inactive? Sometimes an owner gets into a bad situation where continuing to operate is impractical — such as being kicked out of their arena, or being unable to cover payroll — but has a plan for getting back on their feet at a later time. By going inactive, they keep their franchise and will not have to apply for expansion in order to re-start the business. Depending on the rules at the time, they might also keep certain assets such as players’ contract rights, their brand/logo, rights to the market, voting rights as an owner, and so forth. It’s strongly preferable to folding and losing everything, and in rare cases it makes more sense than selling the franchise to someone else.

There is also the option to merge two teams, but be careful to note that it’s usually the teams being merged and not the franchises. Merging two franchises would imply that the owners have become co-owners of a combined organization. Under normal circumstances, it would be preferable to merge the teams and fold one of the franchises, in order to let a broke owner declare bankruptcy.



Yes, technically. But it would be more accurate to say 33 franchises, as “team” implies a bunch of guys playing hockey.



In the case we’re experiencing, it would make a lot more sense for the NHL to transfer the Merulelo franchise to SLC owners, and then create an expansion franchise for any future Meruelo team. Under the OP’s understanding of this deal, they are effectively giving away a billion-dollar franchise to Meruelo for free, which makes little sense.

It’s possible there are some backroom arrangements at play, perhaps as part of the original effort to find an owner willing to make a go of it in Arizona. Perhaps they effectively promised Meruelo that that he would either succeed with the Yotes, or receive an expansion franchise, thus making his purchase almost bulletproof from financial failure. If that were the case, it could help explain the weirdness of how this all played out.
I'm not up to date on my hockey business news. Is this a rumored scenario? Team moves to Utah as a new franchise, perhaps pays the league an expansion fee. Meruelo holds ownership of the existing Arizona franchise with a chance to come back without paying an expansion fee?

cheers
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
36,155
16,616
I'm not up to date on my hockey business news. Is this a rumored scenario? Team moves to Utah as a new franchise, perhaps pays the league an expansion fee. Meruelo holds ownership of the existing Arizona franchise with a chance to come back without paying an expansion fee?

cheers
I'd think he has to pay an expansion fee since his team was bought for a billion. It probably takes more than that to get back in
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad