In Defense of Chiarelli
- Thread starter redgrant
- Start date
BlowbyBlow
Registered User
- Jan 22, 2011
- 3,411
- 0
One of the best posts from anyone. People don't realize its not a position of player strength its team strength + availability.
I mean Johansen went for Seth Jones a largely unproven d-man. D-man have been more valuable to teams Look what #2 d-man are available - barely any. I can easily a d-man like Hjalmarsson going to Vegas in expansion and he's a #3. This team sucks and unless you are new you haven't proven anything. The Oilers could do lateral trades or trade lesser players for #3-4 d-man play them higher in the lineup and watch them fail.
Like everyone else, very stunned about the trade, and yes, we should have gotten more value. Right handed defensemen don't grow on trees either, very very hard to find.
We just don't know what happened though. Did the Habs ask for way too much for PK that caused chia to make this move, or wouldn't take on extra player to balance the cap? (I would say the Habs didn't get full value either, or even close) I suspect a lot of GM's tried to take advantage of our lack of defense as well by setting the price way beyond what chia just gave up. The Blues may be kicking themselves as well now, hall for shattenkirk would have been a good deal for them.
I think though this is a better team now, especially if we sign demers and Lucic . Far better defense now, Lucic may not be a better winger, but he has snarl and is a better fit for McDavid than hall (or anyone else for that matter) We still have the makings of 3 decent lines as well, and if the team can get rid of a couple useless players, have a bit of cap space (though not a lot) We also have a few trade chips left, like a LHD.
Hall's biggest problem was he took over a line, as opposed to playing as part of a line. I remember RNH and Ebs both elevated their game during a hall injury, so we may see better performance from them (especially the kick in the ass to start doing better) and one of the biggest problems was getting the puck out of our own end. Larrson is a very good passer.
You know, despite losing Hall, adding Lucic and our number 1 pick, we have the makings of 3 pretty good lines here, with a better defense corp, and hopefully not as many injuries.
If it works, I am very happy. This team has so suffered because of lack of action, or even worse mistakes and I guess chia felt a price had to be paid big time to get the team out of it's 10 year hole that was dug. Big gamble, but I can see the plan especially if the team signs those 2 UFA's
We just don't know what happened though. Did the Habs ask for way too much for PK that caused chia to make this move, or wouldn't take on extra player to balance the cap? (I would say the Habs didn't get full value either, or even close) I suspect a lot of GM's tried to take advantage of our lack of defense as well by setting the price way beyond what chia just gave up. The Blues may be kicking themselves as well now, hall for shattenkirk would have been a good deal for them.
I think though this is a better team now, especially if we sign demers and Lucic . Far better defense now, Lucic may not be a better winger, but he has snarl and is a better fit for McDavid than hall (or anyone else for that matter) We still have the makings of 3 decent lines as well, and if the team can get rid of a couple useless players, have a bit of cap space (though not a lot) We also have a few trade chips left, like a LHD.
Hall's biggest problem was he took over a line, as opposed to playing as part of a line. I remember RNH and Ebs both elevated their game during a hall injury, so we may see better performance from them (especially the kick in the ass to start doing better) and one of the biggest problems was getting the puck out of our own end. Larrson is a very good passer.
You know, despite losing Hall, adding Lucic and our number 1 pick, we have the makings of 3 pretty good lines here, with a better defense corp, and hopefully not as many injuries.
If it works, I am very happy. This team has so suffered because of lack of action, or even worse mistakes and I guess chia felt a price had to be paid big time to get the team out of it's 10 year hole that was dug. Big gamble, but I can see the plan especially if the team signs those 2 UFA's
Some people are so delusional. It's like they like being in 30th place every other year. This was a deal that had to be done. The market for a RHD young D man is ridiculous... And that's unfortunately what we needed.
I was expecting Larsson +, but oh well. Chia gave it an honest effort and there was nothing better.
Larsson is an oiler now so I'm gonna cheer like **** for him.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out to those jumping ship.
I was expecting Larsson +, but oh well. Chia gave it an honest effort and there was nothing better.
Larsson is an oiler now so I'm gonna cheer like **** for him.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out to those jumping ship.
Fishy McScales
Registered User
In summary:
MacT promises bold moves, does nothing.
HF reaction: "Aaarrgh!!"
Chiarelli promises to improve D, improves D with a bold move.
HF reaction: "Aaarrgh!!"
Look, I know we lost this trade and in a vacuum Hall is clearly the more valuable player. But we're not in a vacuum. Larsson is a young stud on an awesome contract, and happens to be exactly what this team has been screaming for over the last number of years.
I already said this: I'm not sure with one more year of development for Larsson that Hall would have fetched him next summer. We traded for potential and need here, but I think in the long run it will pay off.
MacT promises bold moves, does nothing.
HF reaction: "Aaarrgh!!"
Chiarelli promises to improve D, improves D with a bold move.
HF reaction: "Aaarrgh!!"
Look, I know we lost this trade and in a vacuum Hall is clearly the more valuable player. But we're not in a vacuum. Larsson is a young stud on an awesome contract, and happens to be exactly what this team has been screaming for over the last number of years.
I already said this: I'm not sure with one more year of development for Larsson that Hall would have fetched him next summer. We traded for potential and need here, but I think in the long run it will pay off.
It could've been worse. At least it wasn't Hall to the Avs for Iginla, which is basically what the Habs just did with Subban for Weber. HFHabs is on the verge of starting another downtown riot.
KeithIsActuallyBad
You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Yeah seriously. Don't understand that trade for the Habs one bit.
The Preds meanwhile might be a force this year.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
- Nov 20, 2013
- 36,170
- 16,628
there was an offer, likely not for Hamonic. It was probably Boychuck +
Hamonic was not offered for Hall
rboomercat90
Registered User
While I'm not excited about the return for Hall I am trying to be a bit more level headed about the deal than most of this board. I have felt for years that Eberle and Hall needed to be split up. Because of the way management built this team, they were the poster boys for entitlement. One of them needed to be moved. I would have preferred it to have been Eberle but I guess he couldn't bring in the piece Chiarelli wanted. I'm hoping this trade wakes up some of the other players on this team and they realize their commitment and consistency needs to improve.
It's so much easier to **** on Chiarelli than to try to defend him. We liked Taylor Hall in this city and he was choked up about being traded. I get that and I felt bad for him. Our team last year and the year before than and the year before that though consisted of a righthand side that had no defense on it. No better than a 3rd pairing RSD behind wingers who were horrible at backchecking and puck battles. The combination of Eberle,Yakupov,Schultz and Fayne meant that 80% of the time other teams could just carry the puck up (their left, our right) side of the ice, straight into our zone. Now we have a 2-way winger in Puljujarvi and a strong defender in Larsson.
Even if it meant giving up Taylor Hall, he was dealt from a position of strength, where we already had Hall, Maroon, Pouliot, Hendricks and Korpikoski. If rumors are true, it also includes Lucic. Hall is a tremendous player but a player we could afford to lose because he played the position with the most depth. It was a trade that could be made to guarantee the Oilers are more competitive.
Do I think Hall is going to have a big season next year? Absolutely, I was predicting before he got traded that next year will be the biggest one of his career. I still say that's how it's going to be. He'll have a career year and everyone will be back here ******** on Chiarelli. Meanwhile, the Oilers will actually be in real, legitimate playoff contention for the first time since before the rebuild started. That's the whole point right? To become a more successful team? To make the playoffs and win games?
Would I have preferred to see Pouliot traded? Sure. Would Pouliot have gotten us Larsson? No. He would've gotten us someone who was less skilled, on a worse contract, and we'd still not have proper D on the right side and we'd keep losing. Maybe a little less because Puljujarvi would help on that side, but there's only so much one person can do.
The trade is over, it's done. We'll miss Taylor Hall, all of us will, me included. Now that this has happened though, let's be glad we finally got a really good RSD. Maybe not one of the big shiny ones with a lot of fame to his name, but a legitimately very very good D to handle the top role on our blueline. Instead of getting one of the more known D on a huge contract who have already had some of their prime years in their past, instead we have one on an excellent contract who is just starting to come into his prime years and he'll have those years right here, in Edmonton. This trade makes all kind of sense from a big picture standpoint and hurts on an individual 1 for 1, ignoring roster needs and strengths standpoint.
Chiarelli didn't get us the guy that everyone was going to applaud because of his big, shiny name. He got the guy that they legitimately thought was the best player they could get, who is going to be an amazing defenceman. Good for him for making the choice based on their own assessment instead of just going by what would be popular.
One more thing. This is nothing like the Reinhart trade. The Reinhart trade was simply bad from the very beginning. It didn't address an organizational need because he is an RSD. He also hadn't proven he could play at the NHL level like Larsson. Reinhart was merely a prospect and he was traded for two high picks in a deep draft. This trade for Larsson gets us a guy who has proven he can effectively play 25 minutes a night versus top competition. Reinhart is miles away from that.
Even if it meant giving up Taylor Hall, he was dealt from a position of strength, where we already had Hall, Maroon, Pouliot, Hendricks and Korpikoski. If rumors are true, it also includes Lucic. Hall is a tremendous player but a player we could afford to lose because he played the position with the most depth. It was a trade that could be made to guarantee the Oilers are more competitive.
Do I think Hall is going to have a big season next year? Absolutely, I was predicting before he got traded that next year will be the biggest one of his career. I still say that's how it's going to be. He'll have a career year and everyone will be back here ******** on Chiarelli. Meanwhile, the Oilers will actually be in real, legitimate playoff contention for the first time since before the rebuild started. That's the whole point right? To become a more successful team? To make the playoffs and win games?
Would I have preferred to see Pouliot traded? Sure. Would Pouliot have gotten us Larsson? No. He would've gotten us someone who was less skilled, on a worse contract, and we'd still not have proper D on the right side and we'd keep losing. Maybe a little less because Puljujarvi would help on that side, but there's only so much one person can do.
The trade is over, it's done. We'll miss Taylor Hall, all of us will, me included. Now that this has happened though, let's be glad we finally got a really good RSD. Maybe not one of the big shiny ones with a lot of fame to his name, but a legitimately very very good D to handle the top role on our blueline. Instead of getting one of the more known D on a huge contract who have already had some of their prime years in their past, instead we have one on an excellent contract who is just starting to come into his prime years and he'll have those years right here, in Edmonton. This trade makes all kind of sense from a big picture standpoint and hurts on an individual 1 for 1, ignoring roster needs and strengths standpoint.
Chiarelli didn't get us the guy that everyone was going to applaud because of his big, shiny name. He got the guy that they legitimately thought was the best player they could get, who is going to be an amazing defenceman. Good for him for making the choice based on their own assessment instead of just going by what would be popular.
One more thing. This is nothing like the Reinhart trade. The Reinhart trade was simply bad from the very beginning. It didn't address an organizational need because he is an RSD. He also hadn't proven he could play at the NHL level like Larsson. Reinhart was merely a prospect and he was traded for two high picks in a deep draft. This trade for Larsson gets us a guy who has proven he can effectively play 25 minutes a night versus top competition. Reinhart is miles away from that.
Great supporting argument.
what's the point of developing an argument in a situation where the argument against what happens holds no weight?
"i told ya so" arguments are equally as worthless down the line.
the best is that the Oilers always have these "models" to follow like "puck possession team" and then they fail making their 2nd rate version of it - while the meta of the game changes to something else.
"the right shot defenseman is holding us back!"
it'll be hilarious when the team is still getting bounced by the rest of the league even with Larsson... and then people will point to some other excuse for the team not executing properly. "we're missing x, y, z!"
wake me up when the season starts and that next excuse pops up.
Broilers
Registered User
I would see how they cope with the new team structure. We have been dealing from the position of weakness. Now it is time win a few hockey games and boost the values of Eberle, RNH and Yakopov.
Different scenario Toronto wanted to start a rebuild and Kessel would probably drag them away from getting top 3 picks. Pittsburgh was the only team in on him and the media drug his name through the dirt in Toronto. Not to mention Hall's 4 years younger on a better deal. Hall's also produced at a higher rate since 2012 .91 ppg vs .86ppg. Plus saying they just got a 1st is really underselling it Kapanen is a good prospect, they got harrington who they just turned into Rychel, Spaling helped them in the Polak deal to get 2 seconds, and a third. A rebuilding team that wanted to gun for 1st overall got Kapanen, Rychel, a 1st, 2 seconds, and a 3rd.
Last edited:
redgrant
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2013
- 6,306
- 3,688
You can justify the Kessel trade all you want at the end of the day both teams traded prospects and net return for Kessel was a 1st rounder that never played a single game not Kris letang.
While we're at it let's look at another elite winger in James Neal who like Kessel has scored more goals in a season than hall. Did Nashville stock full of quality dmen give up a Jones or Josi for him? No they traded a winger.
Would people have been happy with a hall for 1st rounder next year or hall for a hertl trade?
I don't think so. The hall left winger for subban fantasy is just that a fantasy.
First off of course the 1st rounder never played an NHL game genius he got drafted this month when the season was over. Second of all they moved that pick to get Andersen who's going to be their starting goalie for likely a long time. What Toronto gained from moving Kessel was a starting goalie who's young and has around a .920% career save percentage, Kapanen also a former 1st round pick, Rychel who looks NHL ready, picks, and ohh yea Auston Mathews. Saying Toronto got a first round pick for Kessel is like saying Boston got two first round picks for Kessel. Yeah but those picks turned into Seguin and Hamilton looks a lot different now doesn't it. Toronto wasn't even trying to target Letang they explicitly wanted futures they're rebuilding is that concept this hard to grasp. The Hall and Kessel trades aren't comparable just by the situations the two teams were in.
redgrant
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2013
- 6,306
- 3,688
I agree with what youre saying genius. With an expansion draft coming up number 2 goalies don't have the value. The Kessel offer sheet is viewed as one of the greatest heists of all time yet the Kessel to Toronto is considered fair value as like you mentioned they got a number 2 goalie with great stats on a very very good team. That is his value. I don't know what we're arguing about.
Lets not kid ourselves though the deal would have never happened if Toronto wanted Kris letang.
Same with Neil for Seth Jones.
Some roles don't hold the importance of others. Wing is the least important position as the three trades have proven.
The problem is drama queens that jump to conclusions two weeks into the off season expecting everything to be fixed to their unreasonable standard over night. We all follow the franchise. It's not hard to determine that the team is bad. All these users over reacting without looking at the bigger picture or even waiting until the final roster is in place are extremely short sighted. They make assumptions that have no real basis at this point and serve no purpose other then to fulfill their need to whine about something.
If no suitable changes are made to the roster before the season starts or they are and the team is terrible again at Christmas time then call on the pity party but until then people need to quit over reacting and understand that you can't finish much worse then 28th anyway so anything above that is an improvement regardless how appealing the players being exchanged are.
CantHaveTkachev
Legends
exactly
an even worse move would've been to be like MacT and do NOTHING because he was too chicken to mess with the golden core
yes, Hall is worth more than Larsson BUT he dealt from a position of strength and upgraded the defense and the expense of a winger
and we all know wingers is the least valuable position
Replacement*
Checked out
KCC
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2007
- 18,478
- 9,470
We all know this is a small part of the bigger picture with what Chiarelli is doing, but the reality is that no matter what happens, he should have gotten more for Hall.
He's the weakest link of the 3. Don't know what Chiarelli would be able to get for him.
This trade is a tough pill to swallow because emotional attachment is rarely rational. I've been a huge fan of Hall since his Windsor days and watching him grow has been one of the only positives these last 6 years. He's still a player with warts but I've always loved watching his speed and passion. That said, it needed to be done and Chia is doing the dirty work right now and I'm happy he has the balls to do something because I know I couldn't have made that trade if I were in the GM chair.
I honestly didn't think it would take Hall to get a guy like Larsson, but here we are. We've had an AHL caliber D for 10 years, there's no easy way out of that. I knew this day would come but it still hurts to see Hall leave. That said, I think the team will be better after the summer and that's all that matters.
I honestly didn't think it would take Hall to get a guy like Larsson, but here we are. We've had an AHL caliber D for 10 years, there's no easy way out of that. I knew this day would come but it still hurts to see Hall leave. That said, I think the team will be better after the summer and that's all that matters.
Replacement*
Checked out
KCC
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2007
- 18,478
- 9,470
Perhaps he is on the team behind McDavid and Drai, but in general i think he fetches more on the market than Eberle -- That's what I meant.
Ad
Upcoming events
-
-
Game 3 Belleville Senators @ Cleveland Monsters - Series tied 1-1Wagers: 2Staked: $5,025.00Event closes- Updated:
-
Game 3 Providence Bruins @ Hartford Wolf Pack - Series tied 1-1Wagers: 2Staked: $50.00Event closes
- Updated:
-
Game 3 Hershey Bears @ Lehigh Valley Phantoms - Hershey Bears leads series 2-0Wagers: 3Staked: $2,590.00Event closes
- Updated:
-
