Improving the Stars 101

[OttMorrow]

Val looked fine on Saturday. I think you guys should relax your trading fingers.

What about our player-bashing fingers?

 

[Kalamazoo Wings]

Val looked fine on Saturday. I think you guys should relax your trading fingers.

This, Satan always has the answers. Lindell is continuing to look good, then add to that Johns, Honka, Backman, etc.

On the Stars Sunday podcast Nill has, I believe in August, went on the record as saying when it comes to our defense we need to be patient and that its coming, it would be easy for us to move a few young guys to get that number 2 or 3 dman. But he did sound very disinterested in that approach, so I think it best to keep an eye on the Texas box scores and continue to be happy about what we have coming.

 

[kms10g]

I didn't watch the whole game Saturday, but the parts I saw I thought Val played well. With as many playmakers as we have, Val probably isn't going to be popping off as many goals as he could.

I think we will be fine. Losing last year really hurt him, but he will find his rhythm and be a solid player for us.

However, I think if we needed a big time Dman, he would be the best option to trade if we are going blockbuster.

 

[tjcurrie]

I didn't watch the whole game Saturday, but the parts I saw I thought Val played well. With as many playmakers as we have, Val probably isn't going to be popping off as many goals as he could.

I think we will be fine. Losing last year really hurt him, but he will find his rhythm and be a solid player for us.

However, I think if we needed a big time Dman, he would be the best option to trade if we are going blockbuster.

Basically

So if we're discussing improving this team, I think we should go there. It's not necessarily giving up on the guy, but given everything (Yes current situation, players in line, market value, etc) I think everything points to him being the lead dog in any big deal.

 

[OttMorrow]

Basically

So if we're discussing improving this team, I think we should go there. It's not necessarily giving up on the guy, but given everything (Yes current situation, players in line, market value, etc) I think everything points to him being the lead dog in any big deal.

I don't think an underperforming Russian prospect (i still consider him a prospect at this point) going to be the centerpiece of a deal for a top-pairing D? For him to net any kind of return that addresses the top pair, he's got to produce...and he's got to produce big. No excuse for him not to given his physical tools and position. He could be seen as a flight risk to go back to Russia in other teams' eyes. I think some of our defensive prospects have more trade value in a blockbuster deal than Nuke right now honestly...for sure this will be the case by mid-season or so if he's still floundering.

 

[tjcurrie]

I don't think an underperforming Russian prospect (i still consider him a prospect at this point) going to be the centerpiece of a deal for a top-pairing D? For him to net any kind of return that addresses the top pair, he's got to produce...and he's got to produce big. No excuse for him not to given his physical tools and position. He could be seen as a flight risk to go back to Russia in other teams' eyes. I think some of our defensive prospects have more trade value in a blockbuster deal than Nuke right now honestly...for sure this will be the case by mid-season or so if he's still floundering.

He's now somewhere between living off the initial sky-high potential of a recently drafted high-caliber player, and a player who has shown he won't be what he was touted to be. He's still much closer to the former of the two, but potential trade partners would definitely have more reservation than they would have say last year at this time.

He's not at the point right now where he would land us that piece, but he could still definitely be the enticing talent that's the centerpiece of a deal.

 

[Ghost of Kyiv]

A 20 year old had 2 bad games, happens.

 

[tjcurrie]

A 20 year old had 2 bad games, happens.

Of course, this isn't a "dump on Val" discussion, but this is professional sports. Our own feelings aside, we have to look at it from the perspective of other teams, and our own.

We have lots of young forwards hungry for a spot. Maybe not completely ready yet, but close. We have a recent draft pick who carries some pretty solid market value. This is a thread about improving the Stars. We all know the biggest addition would be a top pairing defenseman. It just adds up.

 

[Hull Fan]

When the sample size of Val post surgery is closer to 50 games, then feel free to make a judgment on him. Right now 2 bad games, 2 games out, and 1 good game do not a pattern establish.

 

[Ghost of Kyiv]

Of course, this isn't a "dump on Val" discussion, but this is professional sports. Our own feelings aside, we have to look at it from the perspective of other teams, and our own.

We have lots of young forwards hungry for a spot. Maybe not completely ready yet, but close. We have a recent draft pick who carries some pretty solid market value. This is a thread about improving the Stars. We all know the biggest addition would be a top pairing defenseman. It just adds up.

If we are talking about getting a #1 or a really good #2 with a decent contract status and not being over the hill, then yeah. It would make total sense to view Val as a potential centrepiece. But those guys only come up maybe a couple times a year, often less. And in those situations, the other team will dictate terms, not us, they might want Val+, maybe Honka+, maybe Klingberg, they might not like anything we have to offer. But that is more-so in the context of "who would you be willing to give up if you absolutely had to", rather then what it looks to me like as a "we should use him as a trade chip" type of context (my words not yours).

I totally get that you have to give to get, I think on draft day I said something to the effect of "I would have traded every single draft pick both this year and next for Hamilton". I'm not sure I posted it, but I also would have traded Val for Hamilton in a millisecond because I understand the value of a top pairing guy. I never really liked the Myers rumor/trade idea/prognostication (I appreciate you making it though, when you got Gonchar and KConn right I was pretty amazed) but that is just due to my affinity for numbers and being concerned with Myers underlying stats. But this post isn't about Myers and I think I'm the only one here who cares about that sorta stuff anyways, so I guess I'm rambling.

Right now I think Nuke's trade value is likely lower then it was at this time last year. The only real thing that has happened within this time frame was an injury that was beyond anyone's control, a lack-luster training camp, 2 bad game and 1 good game. So I'm not too concerned about those causes and as a result I think his actual expected value is higher then his trade value. I really don't like trading those type of assets, yeah I like the player, but the primary reason for me not liking the idea is due to my aversion for selling low. Of course if you think his value will continue to decline, then it makes a lot of sense to dump him now, which is understandable, just not one I possess.

 

[tjcurrie]

When the sample size of Val post surgery is closer to 50 games, then feel free to make a judgment on him. Right now 2 bad games, 2 games out, and 1 good game do not a pattern establish.

Can't really recall anyone dumping on him in here. This is a "improve the Stars" thread, and it makes sense to bring him to the front of the line when we're talking about wanting a top pairing defenseman.

If we are talking about getting a #1 or a really good #2 with a decent contract status and not being over the hill, then yeah. It would make total sense to view Val as a potential centrepiece. But those guys only come up maybe a couple times a year, often less. And in those situations, the other team will dictate terms, not us, they might want Val+, maybe Honka+, maybe Klingberg, they might not like anything we have to offer. But that is more-so in the context of "who would you be willing to give up if you absolutely had to", rather then what it looks to me like as a "we should use him as a trade chip" type of context (my words not yours).

I totally get that you have to give to get, I think on draft day I said something to the effect of "I would have traded every single draft pick both this year and next for Hamilton". I'm not sure I posted it, but I also would have traded Val for Hamilton in a millisecond because I understand the value of a top pairing guy. I never really liked the Myers rumor/trade idea/prognostication (I appreciate you making it though, when you got Gonchar and KConn right I was pretty amazed) but that is just due to my affinity for numbers and being concerned with Myers underlying stats. But this post isn't about Myers and I think I'm the only one here who cares about that sorta stuff anyways, so I guess I'm rambling.

Right now I think Nuke's trade value is likely lower then it was at this time last year. The only real thing that has happened within this time frame was an injury that was beyond anyone's control, a lack-luster training camp, 2 bad game and 1 good game. So I'm not too concerned about those causes and as a result I think his actual expected value is higher then his trade value. I really don't like trading those type of assets, yeah I like the player, but the primary reason for me not liking the idea is due to my aversion for selling low. Of course if you think his value will continue to decline, then it makes a lot of sense to dump him now, which is understandable, just not one I possess.

I stated that above somewhere too. Teams reservations right now are more than they would have been a year ago. Just the way it is.

No way would I sell low on him, and I don't think Nill would either. We don't need to trade him. Discussing guys you need to unload, those are guys you may sell low on. Addition by subtraction, or contract reasons. A guy like Val, you get what you want for him or you don't deal him.

I'm just saying if we are wanting a top pairing defenseman he's probably going to draw interest and I wouldn't be scared to pull the trigger. It's just something that makes sense in the hypothetical world. We have lots of young forwards. We can afford it. None of his offensive talent I don't think, but that's not everything.

In all honesty, as of right now what the heck other type of deals are there to discuss? In my eyes it's either this or stand pat. But this isn't a "stand pat" thread. Those are boring.

 

[Ghost of Kyiv]

^^^

I Guess in a roundabout way, we're on the same page then.

 

[Duffeldof]

Val is top prospect. Acquiring top prospects means you either play poor and get to pick early or you will have to make bad trades to just land one good prospect. Only way of trading Val right now is in case we get so insane counterpart that we don't even care how good of an player he might become.

And that guy made 34 points in 79 goals (0.42 PPG) as 18 year old in his rookie season. It might take some time for him to get back on tracks but I strongly believe that he will be atleast 0.50 PPG player. Most likely more.

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

Hopefully, getting back on track is all he needs, but he does need to do that.

Its not even a matter of goals and points. Just watching him closely last night, right now he mostly seems to be floating, with a few good, heads up play. The puck isn't "following him around" as it does with other offensive talents.

Seeing some other youngsters with more hockey sense and drive (like Janmark) only emphasizes this point to me.

Short version, I'm not seeing the 110% effort out of him that I see with nearly every other Star, and until that happens, he can't live up to his potential.

 

[maltrophstitan]

Hopefully, getting back on track is all he needs, but he does need to do that.

Its not even a matter of goals and points. Just watching him closely last night, right now he mostly seems to be floating, with a few good, heads up play. The puck isn't "following him around" as it does with other offensive talents.

Seeing some other youngsters with more hockey sense and drive (like Janmark) only emphasizes this point to me.

Short version, I'm not seeing the 110% effort out of him that I see with nearly every other Star, and until that happens, he can't live up to his potential.

I've just always thought that's more of his style of play. Slower along the boards with the puck looking for the set up, I just haven't seen him drive the net or try for a hard shot as much as I would like him to but he plays a down tempo possession game.

 

[Satan]

I have nothing to add right now but I find humour in ********UpperDeck being filtered when quoted.

 

[Hull Fan]

The pieces Dallas would have to add to Val to get a guy like Shattenkirk make the whole package not worth trading.

Dickinson, Ellie, Shore, and Ully are all guys who are going to be middle six players. There's a great deal of value to be had there but none of them really have the upside Val has. If it takes him another season or more to realize that potential, that would suck, but so be it. Dallas is deep enough to carry Val while he figures it out. No one questions his work ethic and his skill set is such that he just needs reps and confidence to figure it out.

The point being that Dallas may have the 3 internal options it needs to improve their defense in Lindell, Johns, Honka. Hopefully before the end of the season both Lindell and Johns have seized jobs. Then Dallas can trade their excess to improve other areas.

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

No doubt the D will be okay "eventually" with all these prospects. The problem that might drive a Shatty trade is Nill's "Win Now" proclamation, which might drive the exchange of some young in house talent for a vet to, well, win now.

Contract wise, the most logical guys to go are Goli and Demers near the deadline, to be replaced by Honka, Lindell and Johns, or just replaced for this year by Nemeth, Jamie O, since they will have more NHL experience.

But, does any of that make sense in a win now year? It would be better to trade the two sitting NHL guys for a true no. 1 sometime in advance of the deadline to have the new group up and really clicking down the stretch.

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

And if anyone has an idea why my long time user name is now ******upper deck when quoted, I would love to know why! I can't see it.

 

[LT]

And if anyone has an idea why my long time user name is now ******upper deck when quoted, I would love to know why! I can't see it.

Its being looked into

 

[Klingberg]

prospect swap

Which prospect around the league would you like to see the Stars acquire and what prospect would you offer in return?

I'd offer Jamie Oleksiak as I like Patrick Neme the game a lot better

Nick Paul is the prospect I would want out of the Senators organization

 

[LT]

Which prospect around the league would you like to see the Stars acquire and what prospect would you offer in return?

I'd offer Jamie Oleksiak as I like Patrick Neme the game a lot better

Nick Paul is the prospect I would want out of the Senators organization

You know we traded Paul to the Senators, right?

 

[Satan]

I don't really see the fit for Oleksiak in Ottawa to be honest.

 

[traffic cone]

Stars have a surplus of promising (some less than other) depth defensemen. Jokipakka, Nemeth, Oleksiak, Benn, Lindell, Honka, Johns.

Which one gets moved first and when? What would you do?

 

[KallionKujat]

Stars have a surplus of promising (some less than other) depth defensemen. Jokipakka, Nemeth, Oleksiak, Benn, Lindell, Honka, Johns.

Which one gets moved first and when? What would you do?

Nemeth or Oleksiak can be sold.When Lindell makes he s debut one of those guys will be dropped.