Proposal: Immature losses under Woodcroft mounting.

5 Mins 4 Ftg

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I certainly agree that Woody has made some mistakes but I think its a "structural" problem that has been with the club for a very long time. As someone said in the thread, would a new coach go anywhere with the performance we are seeing from the D-men and the bottom 6? Possibly but I think its a low probability.

I explained what Woody changed and how he has reverted back to what got us to a 2-11-2 record last year before Tippet was fired. Structural changes are coach driven. I think a Trotz would make the difference nearly immediately with changes he would make and the discipline he would insist from the players.
 
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KeithIsActuallyBad

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Totally disagree for reasons in the OP. A new GM isn't going to do anything now as teams are made in the summer and the lack of cap space we and most other teams have freezes the trade market.

A new coach like Trotz can make immediate on ice changes that produce immediate results.

Fire Holland later. Fire Woody and hire Trotz now.
And what if Holland doesn't want to hire Trotz? After all, he's not in the coveted Hockey Canada circle. Holland doesn't want a guy that might, gasp, push back against him.

This team needs better defensemen, it needs a GM that can actually evaluate defensemen instead of just plugging holes aimlessly.

But first, we turf Nicholson.
If only it were possible to fire Katz but this would suffice too.
 
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McAsuno

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My question is why Woody decided to change what was working last season for him. It boggles the mind.

It’s like we’re watching Invasion of the Bodysnatchers IRL.



I remember watching this right after Tippett got canned. No, Derek Ryan isn't having a good season, but what he said in regards to the coaching is extremely reminiscent of Woody coaching back like Tippett 2.0 which is frustrating.

"We feel that everyone's getting a chance and opportunity to provide help, and obviously can't rely on McDrai to do everything. We need support for those guys and everyone in the top 6. Get confidence built up from playing more."

"More detailed (under Woodcroft) compared to early of the year under Tippett. We been working on certain things that we struggled early in the year. Track reads, coming back in the defensive zone, structures, where guys are supposed to be, making reads of each other. Early, guys were panicky, didn't know where to go. But now the structure, the coming to the d zone, transitioning to the neutral zone was huge."

Derek Ryan comments during that presser looks day and night with the roster again. Idk wtf is up with Woody and Manson.
 

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My question is why Woody decided to change what was working last season for him. It boggles the mind.

It’s like we’re watching Invasion of the Bodysnatchers IRL.

That is truly mind boggling.

I think he is overthinking the injuries and lineups, and believes we need the long chip and chase breakout to clear pucks, spread the opponents out and stretch the ice, and also limit our blue line turnovers.

However as this team proved under TMac and Tippett, they are not built to play this game. Outside of Hyman and Kane, they have nobody who consistently retrieves these pucks. Its like taking your brand new BMW X5M to a demolition derby.

This is not a chip and chase team which is proven every single time we play a team who drops a trap on us. This is a possession team and Woody had us playing a stronger possession game last year as well as holding the line and being more assertive in the D zone.

Woody I think has simply corkscrewed himself into the ground by overthinking this and not coaching to the teams strengths. What concerns me is his absolute deniability that last nights game was a 3-2 game except for 1 mistake and him trying to bullshit the soft Edmonton media with stats that literally are untrue.

That press conference was it for me. When Tychkowski is calling you out, you are on the wrong side of it.

And what if Holland doesn't want to hire Trotz? After all, he's not in the coveted Hockey Canada circle. Holland doesn't want a guy that might, gasp, push back against him.

This team needs better defensemen, it needs a GM that can actually evaluate defensemen instead of just plugging holes aimlessly.


If only it were possible to fire Katz but this would suffice too.

That is the issue isn't it. I am down with firing the whole lot of them but there already is a Fire Holland thread. This is the replace Woody for Trotz thread. :nod:

Sigh....what a conundrum.
 

McAsuno

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That is truly mind boggling.

I think he is overthinking the injuries and lineups, and believes we need the long chip and chase breakout to clear pucks, spread the opponents out and stretch the ice, and also limit our blue line turnovers.

However as this team proved under TMac and Tippett, they are not built to play this game. Outside of Hyman and Kane, they have nobody who consistently retrieves these pucks. Its like taking your brand new BMW X5M to a demolition derby.

This is not a chip and chase team which is proven every single time we play a team who drops a trap on us. This is a possession team and Woody had us playing a stronger possession game last year as well as holding the line and being more assertive in the D zone.

Woody I think has simply corkscrewed himself into the ground by overthinking this and not coaching to the teams strengths. What concerns me is his absolute deniability that last nights game was a 3-2 game except for 1 mistake and him trying to bullshit the soft Edmonton media with stats that literally are untrue.

That press conference was it for me. When Tychkowski is calling you out, you are on the wrong side of it.


Looks like Dave Tippett hockey all over again.
 

FlameChampion

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When you cant pinpoint the Oilers problems with much certainty, you know its a mess.

As far as Woodcroft goes, I was excited about him and I thought he did a good job last year down the stretch. I did have some question marks with him in regards to the playoffs. I thought a full training camp and him having more say on roster decisions would bode well. I cant watch the team from a technical level and know to what extent whether hes failing the team or the team is failing him in regards to systems that he wants to implement. That being said, I think hes done a terrible job and I'm not sure how to really sugar coat it. Whether the players are failing his systems or not, I am not seeing much for adjustments being made or his ability to hold players accountable if they are not playing the systems that he wants. The PK continues to plague the team. Some of his roster and ice time usage is bad and quite frankly doesnt make sense. Just feels like hes in over his head.

The thing that really makes me pause though is that we just keep seeing the same issues over and over again - it doesnt really seem to matter who the coach is. I know the defense isnt great but I still dont think the team should be at the place where they are at. I just end up shrugging my shoulders because this team is such a frustrating mess.

I doubt that Woodcroft or Holland gets fired. But I do think you have ask the question on whether they should be? I cant see Holland firing him. But I am at the point where I dont think Holland can fix this team. I am not even sure that I even blame Holland for all of it, but if you cant fix the problem - then the team needs to try and find someone who can. Maybe he should be let go and the new guy should bring in the coach of his choice.
 

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Looks like Dave Tippett hockey all over again.


Yep, thats puts it in a better nutshell. As he says (and he's a great follow) with no low C, it's back to F1,2,3 (first man back which results in confusion and misread plays/assignments) and the stretch breakout along the wall. 2-2-1 in the NZ is looking for turnovers to create transitional rushes. 1-1-3 is more conservative and holds the line. Now like I said our D are back to backing into the zamboni stall and sometimes right into the parking lot but they have not as much help back.

As you said, back to Tippett hockey.
 
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Oilhawks

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But should it happen?

I've been unimpressed with Woody this season but I also don't know if he shouldn't be given more time and a chance to make some changes

I would start with giving him a "hard decision" in turfing Manson, who seems obviously over his head (though not much to work with, he is getting nothing out of what he has). He needs to reign in Nurse and have Ceci work himself back in on the 2nd pairing.

Then, I would tell him he has to have Holloway either elevated to consistent top 9 minutes or sent down.

He also has to split McDrai and leave that option as a 'break in case of emergency' rather than a crutch. EVEN with all of the injuries. He is enabling their entitled 0 defense play by stacking them nonstop. When Hyman is back, he needs to run with pairings like Hyman - McDavid and Nuge - Draisaitl. Rotate the useless RW to see who clicks.

People have pointed out the systems have regressed, which I agree. It's definitely also a sore spot but not sure if that will be addressed in season. (It absolutely should be). I think part of the problem is 0 buy in from leadership down. Hyman, Foegele (who has been good after a slow start), Kostin etc seem like some of the few players buying in each shift. That absolutely has to stop.

Holland also has to make a trade to shake things up, immediately. Show that you have faith in the team and the coach (even if the latter is laughable at this time)

Garbage RW out for a legitimate bottom 6 forward. Upgrade in the top 4D. These absolutely need to happen. If Woody can't make it work with those changes, then turf him
 

Mr Kot

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Looks like Dave Tippett hockey all over again.


I always complain about it in every thread like this, but I truly do believe someone is interfering with personnel decisions. It would explain why, in over a decade, we still have the same issues no matter who plays for us.
 
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KeithIsActuallyBad

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I always complain about it in every thread like this, but I truly do believe someone is interfering with personnel decisions. It would explain why, in over a decade, we still have the same issues no matter who plays for us.
This would be my guess. The Oilers want to succeed "their" way and thus any dissent must be curtailed. It's why they always hire buddies and people close to them.
 

FlameChampion

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Looks like Dave Tippett hockey all over again.


Just so I am understanding correctly. Is he saying that McLeod is the only C who reliably is back to help out with defensive zone duties? Essentially hes saying that McDavid/Draisaitl dont want to play down low because they want to be up high for a offensive break?
 
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Fixed to Ruin

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Forgive the wall of text but I am going to state the case as best I can and provide a solution.

Yes we have our best winger on the shelf for multiple months with a lacerated forearm.
Yes we have had 3 other top 9 wingers on the shelf for a few weeks.
Yes our starting goalie has not been good to start the season.

For teams that are supposed to be top 4 contenders with elite level coaching those are just excuses and solvable problems.

Good coaches adjust to the hands they are dealt and the opponents they are playing to formulate a winning game plan, especially when you have 2 nuclear weapons in your arsenal. Case in point, Arizona who on paper should be 0-25. Case in point, Boston who despite massive injuries are leading the league. Case in point, Toronto (yuck) who despite missing their top 3 D and their goaltenders manage to win far more than they lose.

Last season Woody benefited from the additions of Kane, a late season resurgent Keith and Smith, and McDavid / Draisaitl going ballistic. But to his credit, Woody changed the defensive structure to a simpler system that gave zone responsibility vs man on man. He also completely changed our breakout from the long chip and chase to a tight 5 man unit, adapted our forecheck from a wide 2-1-2 to a tighter 2-1-2 and strong D pinch with support from F3.

This all created 5 man support in every area of the ice which results in possession, dangerous shot suppression and creates high danger shots for. It played to the creative strengths of McDavid and Draisaitl. He lowered Nurse, McDavid and Draisaitls minutes, spreading the ice time more evenly resulting in not burning out our 2 superstars by April. He solved our poor first period starts. He adjusted in game early and often. He improved special teams. He denied easy zone entries.

This season, I think Dave Tippet is back wearing a Woody mask. We are back to the exact same long breakout and ineffective forecheck Tippett used. Back to scrambling in our D zone in large part to soft play and lack of awareness and responsibility. Back to shaky goaltending from our starter. Back to poor first period starts. Back to a piss poor PK. Back to elevated minutes for Nurse, McDavid and Draisaitl. Back to being one of the worst defensive teams in the league. Back to piss poor player personnel decisions on all 4 lines. Back to waiting to make in game adjustments until it's far too late to recover. Our D today back right into the zamboni stall. The front of our net is back to being an easy access area for opponents.

Woody ran the worst training camp since Dallas Eakins and according to McDavid, runs soft and slow practices and now even does Novice level skills and drills when in season practice time is pure gold and the team is struggling.

Certainly player personnel has something to do with this and Ken Holland takes his share of the blame however changing the GM today does nothing to change our on ice fortunes as the flat salary cap has jammed the trade market and the Oilers, along with 70% of the other teams are over the cap in LTIR severely limiting trade options. There are going to be no in season saving trades and no Evander Kane's dropping out of the sky to play for near league minimum.

However, right now there are two proven coaches out there that no matter the team insist on structured, balanced play. Quennville and Trotz. Quennville has been cancelled so he is off the table. Trotz is however available and stated he is ready to come back.

When you have a top unrestricted free agent coach who has proven to be able to work with everything from garbage rosters (early Nashville) to elite offensive superstars with egos and track records of putting offence before defence (Ovechkin, Kuznetzov, Backstrom, Carlson), taking them to a cup victory, improving a middle of the road Islander team to a playoff threat (last season was derailed by Covid and a 20 game road trip while their arena was being completed), you simply have to consider that option.

We have right now a rookie coach who poses in front of the camera and talks a good pre and post game presser, but last night was outright fumbling (and even telling a few fibs) through his presser and believing in his own bullshit. Rob Tychkowski was, as usual, the only guy in the media with a set of balls who called him out on it. What did we get? More bullshit about it being a 1 goal game and indirectly piling onto Bouchard for costing the team the game, when it was clear to even the most casual observer that we got speedbagged that entire game, in particular in the coaching department.

We are in the waning years of the contracts of our two megastars and are playing below league average hockey right now. We cannot hitch our ride to a rookie poser when there is a legitimate elite level coaching talent just sitting there waiting to be hired who has the track record of snapping teams into winning positions fast.

Holland made (another) mistake by not in the very least interviewing Trotz to gauge his level of interest before signing onto 3 years of a rookie who ran with near historic levels of performance by McDavid and an injured Draisaitl along with Kane scoring well above his average in the post season.

We have 2.5 years left in this window until LA comes knocking for Draisaitl after Kopitars contract expires and they will offer far more than Edmonton can afford with McDavids contract up the next year. (plus no comparison in terms of lifestyle and weather)

Do you give Woody the chance? Or do you want to actually increase the chances to win now and hire Trotz.

My vote is cut Woody loose and hire Trotz.

You?

The Oilers aren't going to change coaches and i'd rather see Holland gone before Woody but if we are looking at coaching there's a name that's out there that i find interesting. One of the best coaches over the years at 5 on 5 play is Claude Julien. His teams often dominate all the important categories at 5 on 5 such as goals, expected goals and shot attempts. Nobody talks about him but he's made the playoffs 11 times, been in the finals twice and won one cup. He would be my vote at this point as this team needs to get a clue when they aren't on the power play.

Edit: For comparisons sake, Trotz has 14 playoff appearances and 1 cup.
 
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Spawn

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woodcroft doesn’t have the horses.

Not his fault Holland is an incompetent bum.
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

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Woodcroft has made some mind numbing decisions this season but he's also been handed filth to work with. Like I'm sorry but when guys like Malone/Hamblin/Benson/Shore are populating the bottom 6 you're pretty much forced to overplay the top 6, and the best defensive RHD on this team is unironically Cody Ceci. Jack Campbell making half the games unplayable from minute 1 isn't helping either. Woody did a great job turning the team around last year and I'm willing to give him a leash to fix the mess, but it'd better happen sooner rather than later.
 
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Mez

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TBH though, we are in a similar injury situation to The Avs right now. and they are a deeper team by a long shot. They also have not lived up to expectation and have a similar win %.

Its hard for me to to jump on the fire the coach train when we have dealt with as much adversity as we have this season (injuries, wood tier goaltending, ect.)

Yes we have obviouse issues, I think the personal issue is a larger part than the coaching.
 
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McAsuno

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Just so I am understanding correctly. Is he saying that McLeod is the only C who reliably is back to help out with defensive zone duties? Essentially hes saying that McDavid/Draisaitl dont want to play down low because they want to be up high for a offensive break?

That's how I viewed the tweet and how I view watching the Oilers this season.
I'm glad you saw the Derek Ryan video I posted, because its noticeable with the mistakes the Oilers have a quarter into the season.

Track reads, coming back in the defensive zone, structures, where guys are supposed to be, making reads of each other. Early, guys were panicky, didn't know where to go. But now the structure, the coming to the d zone, transitioning to the neutral zone has now turned right back to the opposite in Tippett 2.0 hockey.

One of my biggest pet peeve so far is the team allowing the opponents easily entering the blue line as the team skates back rather than skate forward aggressively to contest. It doesn't look like a team that's playing with and for each other right now. It's just McDrai go out playing too many minutes being counted on to score, and the rest of the forwards just get on ice, dump the puck, and lose puck possession.
 

Drivesaitl

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I could see woody being a plausible interim promotion last season. The team seemed to need some cheer and positivity and rah rah around them. That only goes so far and only lasts as long as a team is able to feel a bump. It wasn't a longterm solution and ultimately the team going .500 in the playoffs to me despite getting to third round didn't warrant continuing. Woddy was a placeholder type of coach. He isn't somebody that has leading edge schemes that can beat all comers. He isn't a premium coach. At this point I don't see him as even an average NHL coach. At this level he's an imposter. Several coaches were available for this season and it would have been prudent to get somebody qualified and experienced in the role.
 

Oilhawks

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TBH though, we are in a similar injury situation to The Avs right now. and they are a deeper team by a long shot. They also have not lived up to expectation and have a similar win %.

Its hard for me to to jump on the fire the coach train when we have dealt with as much adversity as we have this season (injuries, wood tier goaltending, ect.)

Yes we have obviouse issues, I think the personal issue is a larger part than the coaching.

Yup, was reading their PGT and sounds a lot like HFOil
 

Drivesaitl

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TBH though, we are in a similar injury situation to The Avs right now. and they are a deeper team by a long shot. They also have not lived up to expectation and have a similar win %.

Its hard for me to to jump on the fire the coach train when we have dealt with as much adversity as we have this season (injuries, wood tier goaltending, ect.)

Yes we have obviouse issues, I think the personal issue is a larger part than the coaching.
Yet the team has never been playing worse than they are now. Eakins level worst. Not in isolation either. The Oilers are crap at home, have two extremely fortunate come back W's and we also have two OT W's without which we'd be thinking lost season already.

Woody defenders here said that Kane missing would standardize to what the team had a year ago and that we would see the coaching. Well, we've seen the team not be very good at all. We've seen a team that cheats out some victories but plays horrendous games like last night.

Worse, our core players have never looked worse in a game. Thats concerning in itself. Could even be indicative of what the core is feeling about the direction, or lack of it. Drai is playing the worst own zone game I've ever seen from him this season. Nurse has never been this bad. One of the signposts of bad coaching is how bad the pk is and how much regression is seen in a clubs top players.

Last night had the clear look of a core not even playing for the coach.

Without Montreal flat out gifting us a Win on Saturday the Oilers situation would be plain ugly. As it is we're out of the playoffs.
 
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Beerfish

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I don't think for moment that Woodcroft was Hollands guy. Holland had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fire Tippett. At the time I think he had no real intention of bring Woodcroft back, but the performance of the team forced the issue and he basically had no choice.

Holland is and has been far more of the problem or this team than Woodcroft or even Tippet for that matter.
 

5 Mins 4 Ftg

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Just so I am understanding correctly. Is he saying that McLeod is the only C who reliably is back to help out with defensive zone duties? Essentially hes saying that McDavid/Draisaitl dont want to play down low because they want to be up high for a offensive break?

No he’s saying in the OZ (offensive zone) the F3 (3rd forward. Doesn’t have to be a C) is the player responsible for covering high and taking a pinching D’s spot. That’s the tight 2-1-2 forecheck I was referring to earlier.

That breaking down results in odd man rush chances against at the worst or loss of possession and the OZ least.
 
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brentashton

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I think the org has firmly put itself into ”wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole” status as an NHL organization.

If they were to shitcan Woodcroft they are basically saying that Hitchcock, McLelland, Tippet, Woodcroft we’re all inept hires during the McDavid/Draisaitl era (not to mention what went on in the years prior to even land them McDavid in the first place). Why would any tenured coach want their legacy to be attached as the 5th member of that group? The supporting cast isn’t getting better. The botched management structure above them doesn’t appear to be changing. Is a Trotz/Quennevile-esque coach going to x and o this group into the SCF? No effin way. If they punt Jay, the best they would do is another untested newbie, looking to make a name for themselves, riding the McDrai train.

As others have said, Drai is most likely gone in 2 and when that happens, does 97 want to stick around after losing Leon and still no Cup in his career?

Unfortunately, they have hitched their wagon to Jay for this and probably next year before they make any change and will have to hope for an Oiler Miracle on 104th Street.
 
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Drivesaitl

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I don't think for moment that Woodcroft was Hollands guy. Holland had to be dragged kicking and screaming to fire Tippett. At the time I think he had no real intention of bring Woodcroft back, but the performance of the team forced the issue and he basically had no choice.

Holland is and has been far more of the problem or this team than Woodcroft or even Tippet for that matter.
meh. I mentioned at the time of the playoffs and all season that the Flames were a nothing opponent that would be an easy playoff foil. They were a team ready to take a dive and moreso because Gaudreau who is always subpar in playoffs was leaving and because Tkachuk was too. The Flames played out the series as if leaving was fait accompli. In otherwords they had no reason left to really give it much. It was a perfect opponent for the Oilers.

Needs to be remembered that the Oilers were not well prepared for the LA series and did not play well in that series. A Kings team without Doughty and Arviddson extended us to the limit. A rebuilding Kings team full of inexperienced players. Kanes 7 goals is the primary reason we even got the series to game 7.

Third round against Colorado, the first solid opponent we saw showed how few answers we had. Again the team was 8-8 in the playoffs and the divisional opponents should not have been that much trouble.
 

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