If the Red Wings miss the playoffs will you blame Ken Holland?

[PullHard]

Most of the blame, yeah.

 

[kuick]

You can't blame Holland (or Babcock, for that matter) for the team playing with their heads up their a-- like they do most nights. It's been going on since Jacques Demers was the coach, it's maddening!

Same thoughts pretty much.

Yeah, it's no championship team Holland put together this year but playoffs were and still are well within our grasp. It's on Babcock / certain slumping players if we manage to blow it from this point.

In hindsight, sure there are a lot of moves that could have and should have been made to make us better. Missing the playoffs this year isn't on him though. This team has blown a lot of leads and missed too many 'gimme' points for that to be the case.

There are a lot of reasons to be upset at Holland, but playoffs this year aren't one of them.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

when pretty much every hockey writer/analyst predicted the DRW would finish between 7-10th this season I am not sure how this team and its success/failure doesnt fall almost entirely on KH's shoulders.

their was as good of a chance that detroit finished 8th as their is that they finish 10th. the difference would be plus or minus two wins as those two spots will be separated when its all said and done by four points.

this is KH's team, the team he built and assembled and that team is a plus or minus two wins during an entire season between barely making the playoffs as the 8th seed and barely missing it as the 10th.

if the DRW finish 4th or 14th despite all the pre-season "expert" predictions to finish between 7-10 then thats all coaching and thats where you congratulate or ridicule the coach and players

if the DRW finsih exactly where they predicted to then thats 100% the GM's fault.

 

[Henkka]

You don't have to blame anyone. Blaming war leads into bad things, like things in Germany at the '30s. Human nature is pretty sad, if you always have to have something to blame to feel better.

We were unlucky because of injuries. That happens in hockey. You have to accept that and don't have to blame anybody. No GM can prevent injuries, like especially Darren Helm has had. Holland signed depth at summer, and all that depth was gone when injuries hit with this crazy lockout start without good preparation. So because the depth is gone, we are in the same situation like last year, and without Lidström.

Considered our bad situation, we have overachieved. Babcock should maybe be considered for Jack Adams nominee. Paul MacLean deserves it more, but our results, with all the problems, have been surprisingly good without Lidström, Helm, Bertuzzi + all the other injuries.

You don't fix our short-term problems anyhow for this season. Especially, the last thing to do is burn something from your long-term plans. That's what great GM's refuse to do. Our organizational goal is in the future, not at this transitional season full of problems.

 

[Syckle78]

Great so the excuse for this year is injuries.

 

[smurfyeah19]

I believe the blame falls squarely on Babcock and Holland. The fact Dan Cleary was atop 6 skater while Tatar plays in GR is mindblowing. Detroit should be a 6 seed this year, but poor player decisions have cost them dearly

I believe either way we need big moves to happen, whether it be a mass callup or big trades or a free agent splash we need to improve. It seems Detroit is too content with filling the lineups with depth, not real firepower which would make us a legit contender

 

[InjuredChoker]

You don't have to blame anyone. Blaming war leads into bad things, like things in Germany at the '30s. Human nature is pretty sad, if you always have to have something to blame to feel better.

We were unlucky because of injuries. That happens in hockey. You have to accept that and don't have to blame anybody. No GM can prevent injuries, like especially Darren Helm has had. Holland signed depth at summer, and all that depth was gone when injuries hit with this crazy lockout start without good preparation. So because the depth is gone, we are in the same situation like last year, and without Lidström.

Considered our bad situation, we have overachieved. Babcock should maybe be considered for Jack Adams nominee. Paul MacLean deserves it more, but our results, with all the problems, have been surprisingly good without Lidström, Helm, Bertuzzi + all the other injuries.

You don't fix our short-term problems anyhow for this season. Especially, the last thing to do is burn something from your long-term plans. That's what great GM's refuse to do. Our organizational goal is in the future, not at this transitional season full of problems.

Agreed. But imo Holland didn't do the best job with it.

Why didn't Holland dump the dead weight?

Cleary
White
Eaves (well, maybe no one wanted him)
Flip if he's not re-signed

 

[DRWCountryClub]

Did somebody say Sammy can skate?

 

[PullHard]

Great so the excuse for this year is injuries.

We all saw it coming, unfortunately

Meaning, he expects vets in over young guys next year.

Fun.

 

[Shoalzie]

All you had to do was watch last night...the Hawks play a fast game. Almost reminds of what the younger Wings used to play. Without Helm, this team looks very slow. I want to see more young legs out there next year. You don't need 6 Bobby Orrs on defense...you do need some guys up front that can scoot though.

Nyquist is a refreshing player to watch...creative player that has good wheels. This team needs to transition towards more young skaters. Speed is effortless and effort shouldn't be confused with speed.

 

[GT500x]

Same thoughts pretty much.

Yeah, it's no championship team Holland put together this year but playoffs were and still are well within our grasp. It's on Babcock / certain slumping players if we manage to blow it from this point.

In hindsight, sure there are a lot of moves that could have and should have been made to make us better. Missing the playoffs this year isn't on him though. This team has blown a lot of leads and missed too many 'gimme' points for that to be the case.

There are a lot of reasons to be upset at Holland, but playoffs this year aren't one of them.

Blaming someone for something doesn't have to involve emotion. He built the team, he takes responsibility. If the Wings were to win the cup, guess who'd be getting praised.

 

[Henkka]

Great so the excuse for this year is injuries.

Pretty much. Still waiting to see our on-paper planned roster we will never see at this season. We haven't had that in use for a single game.

Franzen - Zetterberg - Brunner
Filppula - Datsyuk - Bertuzzi
Cleary - Helm - Samuelsson
Miller - Abdelkader - Tootoo
(Emmerton, Eaves)

It would really have been a totally different team. It looked good on paper. But the 3rd line has been missing all year, because of the injuries for HElm and Sammy, and Bertuzzi missing from the TOP6 and Cleary/ABdelkader as a replacement in the TOP6. The same depth we got at summer was gone when the season started.

The defence and goaltending position has been pretty much normal, altough Ericsson, Quincey, White, Cola and Smith (long list, but not killing the depth) have been some games off. Still that caused a mess, because there was new guys at new roles, guy getting injured and the defensive unit changing game after game. Many other organizations have gone in a total disaster seasons in the past with the same problems we have had now.

With an 82-game season, we could easily have a good later part of the season with some healthier group. But as for now, we can't do any significant impact anymore.

 

[Marky9er]

How can I blame him for missing the playoffs if I actually want the team to miss the playoffs? Trading a guaranteed early exit for the highest draft pick since forever? The chances we win the cup are more remote than whatever the odds we win the draft lottery work out to be, amiright?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Blaming someone for something doesn't have to involve emotion. He built the team, he takes responsibility. If the Wings were to win the cup, guess who'd be getting praised.

I guess not much, there is the crowd that likes to pretend Bowman was the real GM of his first cup, he lucked into a big spending budget for the first three. Jim Nill and the scouts particularly Andersson gave him all his talents, they deserve credit but we have seen this line as a total credit idea. You see it all over the place there is a real effort to discredit Hollands accomplishments in the past even when they have won among some of the people around here.

 

[ScottyBowman]

Of course I will blame him. Not for the trade deadline but for the past 4 years where he has acquired every GARBAGE 4th liner in the NHL. He has been lucky our defense has held up somewhat this year but our forwards blow. Giving Bertuzzi a 2 year extension last year was LOL. Eaves, Miller, Abdelkader, Tootoo, Emmerton, Mursack, Samuelson... Enough said.

 

[Henkka]

I guess not much, there is the crowd that likes to pretend Bowman was the real GM of his first cup, he lucked into a big spending budget for the first three. Jim Nill and the scouts particularly Andersson gave him all his talents, they deserve credit but we have seen this line as a total credit idea. You see it all over the place there is a real effort to discredit Hollands accomplishments in the past even when they have won among some of the people around here.

Yes, there is the crowd that tries to denigrate this and that. But after studying our organization history and reading that Devellano book, everything has been pretty clear that Holland is the best man to manage people. GM's work is to find the best people in right positions, trust them and get some results on a long run. That why he is the GM here. Let's see what he has accomplished.

Holland was the Director of amateur scouting since the late 80's. He has signed the scouting staff and build the system that has scouted all the talent from those days to us. Devellano started the work at 1982, but Holland has been the bigger builder for larger scouting department over two decades ago.

Two seasons after Holland took the charge as a Director of Amateur Scouting, we "surprisingly" did made our BEST DRAFT EVER. Maybe THE BEST NHL DRAFT EVER (1989). Nobody has ever gave enough credit of this HOME RUN for him.

Year after at 1990, Ken Holland signs HÃ¥kan Andersson to scout for the Red Wings. Results will come later from this move. Good GM will find the best people and keep them to work UNDER him.

As an Assistant GM, Holland signed Jim Nill at 1994 to join the organization from Ottawa. Nill replaces Holland as his position Director of Amateur Scouting. Nill's results were not as great as Holland's days at same position before, but everybody has some growing pains.

When Nill wasn't at his best as Scouting Director, he was put to the postion of picking players during entry draft. He had eye for that. Guess who found the right job for him? Yes, our General Manager, Ken Holland. Good GMs put the right people in right positions.

So, I just try to tell, that it's not just those moves regarding to roster or UFA signings, it's the overall work in the organization. Many fans totally refuse to understand this BIG PICTURE in OVERALL MANAGEMENT. If you want to give credit for Nill and Andersson, it's Ken Holland who hired those guys and signed them here kind of forever to keep the machine running.

Ken Holland's Red Wing career:

1983 - 1984 AHL goalie for Red Wings minor league affiliate, Adirondack Red Wings
1984 - 1985 AHL goalie for Red Wings minor league affiliate, Adirondack Red Wings

1985 - 1986 Amateur Scout for Red Wings
1986 - 1987 Amateur Scout for Red Wings

1987 - 1988 Director of Amateur Scouting (1988 draft: Sheldon Kennedy) (Clearly this year was the most important year to build the system with some growing pains, educate our views to new scouts and the better results will be seen at next drafts)
1988 - 1989 Director of Amateur Scouting (1989 draft: Mike Sillinger, Bob Boughner, Nicklas Lidström, Sergei Fedorov, Dallas Drake, Vladimir Konstantinov) HOME RUN!
1989 - 1990 Director of Amateur Scouting (1990 draft: Keith Primeau, Slava Kozlov, Jason York) (Holland also signs HÃ¥kan Andersson to scout European players)
1990 - 1991 Director of Amateur Scouting (1991 draft: Martin Lapointe, Jamie Pushor, Chris Osgood, Mike Knuble)
1991 - 1992 Director of Amateur Scouting (1992 draft: Darren McCarty, Dan McGillis)
1992 - 1993 Director of Amateur Scouting (1993 draft: Anders Eriksson)
1993 - 1994 Director of Amateur Scouting (1994 draft: Mathieu Dandenault, Tomas Holmström) (Gets promoted to Assistant GM, signs Jim Nill to his former position)

1994 - 1995 Assistant General Manager - President's Trophy + Stanley Cup Final (1995 draft: Maxim Kuznetsov)
1995 - 1996 Assistant General Manager - President's Trophy (1996 draft: Jesse Wallin)
1996 - 1997 Assistant General Manager - Stanley Cup (1997 draft: Yuri Butsayev)

1997 - 1998 General Manager - Stanley Cup (Wins Stanley Cup on his 1st try) (1998 draft: Jiri Fischer and... Holland-signee HÃ¥kan Andersson finds Pavel Datsyuk from Russia)
1998 - 1999 General Manager (1999 draft: Henrik Zetterberg, Andersson strikes again)
1999 - 2000 General Manager (2000 draft: Niklas Kronwall, Tomas Kopecky, It's all Andersson again, a strike from Europe, from the man that Holland signed, did I forgot to remind you?)
2000 - 2001 General Manager (2001 draft: Igor Grigorenko, too bad Ken Holland could not prevent his car accident)
2001 - 2002 General Manager - President's Trophy + Stanley Cup (suffles the roster for his 2nd Cup) (2002 draft: Jiri Hudler, Tomas Fleischmann, Valtteri Filppula, Jonathan Ericsson and his signee and his right arm and best friend, HÃ¥kan Andersson strikes with European Jackpot)
2002 - 2003 General Manager (Signs Dawe Lewis to replace Head coach Scotty Bowman, keeps Bowman at the Front-office) (2003 draft: Jimmy Howard, Kyle Quincey, something starts finally happen from North American Scouting)
2003 - 2004 General Mananger - President's Trophy (2004 draft: Johan Franzen)

2004 - 2005 General Manager (NHL Lock-out) (Signs Mike Babcock to a new Head coach) (2005 draft: Jakub Kindl, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm)
2005 - 2006 General Manager - President's Trophy (Puts a regular season winning team on the ice after the team payroll is cut in half with salary cap) (2006 draft: Cory Emmerton, Shawn Matthias, Jan Mursak)
2006 - 2007 General Manager (2007 draft: Brendan Smith, Joakim Andersson)
2007 - 2008 General Manager President's Trophy + Stanley Cup (Wins his 3rd Cup only 3 years after salary cap was implemented) (2008 draft: Gustav Nyquist)
2008 - 2009 General Manager - Stanley Cup Final (2009 draft: Landon Ferraro, Tomas Tatar, Nick Jensen, Mitchell Callahan, Adam Almquist)
2009 - 2010 General Manager (2010 draft: Riley Sheahan, Calle Järnkrok, Teemu Pulkkinen, Petr Mrazek)
2010 - 2011 General Manager (2011 draft: Tomas Jurco, Xavier Ouellet, Ryan Sproul, Mattias Bäckman, Alexei Marchenko)
2011 - 2012 General Manager (2012 draft: Martin Frk, Jake Paterson, Andreas Athanasiou)
2012 - 2013 General Manager

So Ken Holland has been building our scouting system that lead to the "minor dynasty" at the 90's. Prospect flood from drafts drowned, when Holland was promoted to Assistant duties and Jim Nill took the charge. When he was the Director, he got quality players every year. Only the first year was bad, but it was still the biggest building year. You hire the scouts and see the results later. The Jackpot happened two years after they signed him for the positions.

Our worst drafts happened immediately, when Holland left that Director of Amateur scouting position to join this Three-Man GM Group (that consisted of Devellano, Bowman and Holland) as Assistant GM.

He suffled the roster at 1998 and repeated. No GM has repeated since. Then he builded that 2002 team by himself. When the power of money (to keep a star core together and not lose them after succes creates financial problems) was taken away from him and the cap was implemented at 2004-05, in three years he builded another Stanley Cup winner, that almost repeat year after.

As for now, he is building that prospect Academy at Grand Rapids and hoarding a new army of prospects that will lead us to glory in the future. It really looks that some personnel changes has happened at our drafting systems ~five years ago, because the results from latest drafts have been really promising. But you really know how great those draft are five years after. Diffent building in different era, still marvellous work in general.

That's why he gets the praise. Some of you short-shighted critizisers here just don't understand his overall work behind the scenes he has made in the past and plans he has for the future. Nothing looks like we are declining. The current team is weaker yes, but our future looks really really bright with all the young talent currently as our property.

 

[Brick Top]

That's why he gets the praise. Some of you short-shighted critizisers here just don't understand his overall work he has made in the past and plans he has for the future. Nothing looks like we are declining. The current team is weaker yes, but our future looks really really bright with all the young talent currently as our property.

And some of you "far-sighted" apologists continually focus on the past history of success instead of the recent downward trend that Kenny has allowed with this team. Overall, of course he's a great GM who's accomplished a lot- I just think it's fair to acknowledge both the past successes and recent failures as part of his legacy.

Hard to believe that you feel that "Nothing looks like we are declining." The loss of talent from the roster over the past few years combined with the inability to acquire high-end talent to replace the guys they lost, a core of aging stars, and the team's downward trend in playoff performances since they last won the Cup, culminating in this year's struggle to nail down even the 8th seed. In the world of sports, that would seem to qualify as a decline. Not saying that can't be reversed in a few seasons, but the arrow appears to be pointing down with this team.

 

[HTT3*]

Aaron Ward. Marco Sturm (as a Bruin). Brian Campbell. Ales Kotalik. Tim Thomas. Alexi Ponikarovsky. Daymond Langkow. Matthew Lombardi. Trent Hunter. Z Michalek (as a Pen). Scott Gomez.

Overpaid. Injured. Useless. Refusing to play. Traded.

Yes. Trading crappy contracts into order to create cap space is impossible. And I'm the one who is out of touch with the trade world.

As for "who", Hudler at the 2009 draft and Filppula at last year's draft or off-season.

But, of course, only top 15 picks get traded for anything of value, so what am I thinking?

Wait, you want to trade and offensive an key player after winning the SC, then following up the next year making the SCF only to lose by one in 2009? And lets forget how well Lidstrom was playing in 2009. Wowza!!!

DANGGGGGGGGG..... Sure glad you have no trade authority. Lol!!

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Had a similar long diatribe on this before Henkka, the Bowman was actually GM one just plain infuriates me.

Was just pointing out there are people that will discredit Holland no matter what, this team is not what it is without five or six key people.

1.) Ilitch
2.) Devellano
3.) Yzerman
4.) Holland
5.) Lidstrom
6.) Bowman

I would probably put them in that order if it is me. But make no mistake Ken Holland is absolutely pivotal to all the success we have enjoyed. He comes along later in that process is part of the first building blocks, his rise within the organization is where we truly take off as a franchise. Something Ilitch and the others will never forget and part of why these discussions are hilarious. At worst moves upstairs, but he will not be fired and isn't close to it, it will be his choice and really it should be. He would need some pretty horrendous years here stacked on top of each other for that to change.

Also to be clear Ken Holland was in the three headed GM heading back to 94-95. Sure they promoted him over the other two because he was constantly wrong...

 

[Henkka]

And some of you "far-sighted" apologists continually focus on the past history of success instead of the recent downward trend that Kenny has allowed with this team. Overall, of course he's a great GM who's accomplished a lot- I just think it's fair to acknowledge both the past successes and recent failures as part of his legacy.

Hard to believe that you feel that "Nothing looks like we are declining." The loss of talent from the roster over the past few years combined with the inability to acquire high-end talent to replace the guys they lost, a core of aging stars, and the team's downward trend in playoff performances since they last won the Cup, culminating in this year's struggle to nail down even the 8th seed. In the world of sports, that would seem to qualify as a decline. Not saying that can't be reversed in a few seasons, but the arrow appears to be pointing down with this team.

Yes, as long-sighted Red Wings fan I see only really promising future in the end of this decade. New flourishing generation in New Modern Hockey Arena. 2015 is the turning point. Now, we are living in a mediocre transition year. Next year could be the same. Battling with injuries, and still at playoff position. Not a contender, but not anything like Calgary Flames has been and will be in near future. Our rise on the top will happen fast, then those Ouellets, Mrazeks and Sprouls start hitting towards their prime.

 

[Syckle78]

I'm seeing a lot of crap being spewed about Holland not getting his due. What a joke. Holland has been god to wing's fans up until the last couple years. The only names bigger than his through the years are probably Yzerman and Bowmans.

Even the biggest holland detractors have given him credit where credit is due, and then some.

This creampuff fan base is really annoying at times. You lot act as if someone smacked your mother if someone questions some suit that you have no personal ties to.

The roster is crap. It's not injuries, it's not bad luck, and it's not guys having bad years or coaching. The roster is crap. Stop being delusional and accept it.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

And some of you "far-sighted" apologists continually focus on the past history of success instead of the recent downward trend that Kenny has allowed with this team. Overall, of course he's a great GM who's accomplished a lot- I just think it's fair to acknowledge both the past successes and recent failures as part of his legacy.

Hard to believe that you feel that "Nothing looks like we are declining." The loss of talent from the roster over the past few years combined with the inability to acquire high-end talent to replace the guys they lost, a core of aging stars, and the team's downward trend in playoff performances since they last won the Cup, culminating in this year's struggle to nail down even the 8th seed. In the world of sports, that would seem to qualify as a decline. Not saying that can't be reversed in a few seasons, but the arrow appears to be pointing down with this team.

Or some people have decided to overlook at the all-star break last year we were a President Trophy favorite and made a move at the deadline that should have given us one of the best D-cores in the entire playoffs. It didn't turn out that way, but this garbage for three years argument doesn't really scan either.

I realize people want more action, but I am glad the Wings have protected some of these assets moving forward and the future is still bright. They just need to transition these guys a little quicker, but it isn't like the well is completely dry or there is nothing to look at positively around here. This is actually pretty in keeping with what Holland told us the new NHL would be about when the last lockout lifted. They have a plan, it might not be pretty this year, but I hope he doesn't give in to the masses and panic buy because that is some of the logic around here.

 

[Doug Gilmour]

I voted no. I blame the team for not coming out and playing hard every game. There were definitely performances against bottom feeders that we should have won, yet gave up. At the end of the day, our boys didn't play well enough, didn't try hard enough, didn't shoot enough, and made a ton of incredibly stupid defensive mistakes all season long. We have too many talented people on this team to have such poor performances this year.

Kenny doesn't lace up the skates and play 20+ minutes a night. He has very little to do with our team performance this year.

The players are responsible to put the W on the board. Agree with your post fully. The players bare the finger pointing and reason for failure and success in Detroit.

 

[Heaton]

The players are responsible to put the W on the board. Agree with your post fully. The players bare the finger pointing and reason for failure and success in Detroit.

And if the players aren't/can't do(ing) it, it's the GMs responsibility to fix it.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I guess not much, there is the crowd that likes to pretend Bowman was the real GM of his first cup, he lucked into a big spending budget for the first three. Jim Nill and the scouts particularly Andersson gave him all his talents, they deserve credit but we have seen this line as a total credit idea. You see it all over the place there is a real effort to discredit Hollands accomplishments in the past even when they have won among some of the people around here.

Wow.
You're idea of defending Holland is to discredit Bowman?