If the Red Wings miss the playoffs will you blame Ken Holland?

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Here's the thing: he moved on and signed Bert, Sammy, Brunner, Colaiacovo and Huskins. Then nearly all of those guys got injured. He maintained that simply making the playoffs was the goal and he pointed to last year's LA Kings as an example that if you just make the playoffs then anything is possible. This was his stated goal: just make the playoffs. If he truly believed what he was saying then why didn't he make a trade?

Because he was overselling the chance of ours as the 8th seed. Honestly I think if we got Bouwmeester and lost in 6 games instead of 5 vs Chicago everyone would be raging about lost assets. Bouwmeester reaks of being a pseudo contender. I want a full PLANNED youth movement.

 

[probertrules24]

That was the one trade where Detroit was rumored to be very much in the mix. Bouwmeester also fills a definite need. So what, you are saying Kyle Quincey was worth a first but Bouwmeester wasn't?

So you are agreeing that the point of this thread was to blame Holland.

Some years you take a chance and deal your first. Holland took a chance just like so many around here say he never does. When it doesn't hit a home run theses same people use that as an excuse for another thread to blame.

You will not find a single post of mine saying we shouldn't of been in on Bowmeester. I have no problem dealing a first for a guy we all know is NHL caliber.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I partially blame Holland but it's not all on him. Babcock and the players deserve equal or slight more blame. And you can blame a small percentage on the lockout.

We missed out Suter and Parise, but you can't really blame Holland entirely for them buddying up in Minny, but that's : at this point.

The Sammy signing was atrocious, but he barely played anyway, so we can't say we missed the playoffs cause Sammy was on the roster. People like to cry about the Coco signing but he's a 6th/7th defenseman, big deal. I also think he shoulda made a run at Semin.

Another thing I'd put on Holland is (and this kind relates to signing Sammy) prospects like Gus and Tatar shoulda been up full time this year and Smith last year.

I'm glad he didn't trade off prospects and picks for rentals or overpaid players like Jay-Bo. That woulda been awful.

Babcock, IMO, has been much worse than Holland this year. Some of his line combos, scratches and IT for certain players have been major heads scratchers this year.

If I had to break it down by percentage I'd say.

35% Babcock
30% Players
30% Holland
5% Lockout

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

That was the one trade where Detroit was rumored to be very much in the mix. Bouwmeester also fills a definite need. So what, you are saying Kyle Quincey was worth a first but Bouwmeester wasn't?

I think neither are worth a 1st and just because Holland wasted one on Quincey doesn't mean it's ok to trade one for Boumeester just cause he's better than Quincey.

 

[aar000n]

You forgot option c he's the gm its his job to ice or field a winning team. What would the phrase for field a winning team in hockey be?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think neither are worth a 1st and just because Holland wasted one on Quincey doesn't mean it's ok to trade one for Boumeester just cause he's better than Quincey.

Also comparing this years draft class to last years is a mistake. On top of that trading two first round picks two years in a row has a different feel to it. Certainly the Quincey thing didn't break right, at the time I didn't think it was a bad move, didn't love it, but didn't think I would hate it this much. But it all gets factored in and moving a first round pick this year would have been an error in my opinion, especially for JayBo.

 

[BinCookin]

This is a hard arguement.

If you want to say this has been a problem for years. Then you can say the GM. The problem with that is 20/20 hindsight, rose colour glasses. Some of the deals "us fans" want KH to make might have made our team MUCH worse MUCH faster, and completely ruined the team. So lets just stick to this year.

I blame mostly the Coach, because there are a few things that are INSANITY if analyzed right.

1) How is Tatar in the AHL right now. He was playing great.
2) Abby and Miller on the top 6?

Is this ONLY the coach? no that involves the GM too.

But I agree with this idea:

Lets cut almost everyone who is not 2nd line player or better (Z, D, Franzen, Brunner, Flip stay)
Everyone else over age 27 (bye bye)

Then play all rookies , keep miller

And hope the rookies make you good (a la Montreal). Its the rebuild on the fly gamble.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Also comparing this years draft class to last years is a mistake. On top of that trading two first round picks two years in a row has a different feel to it. Certainly the Quincey thing didn't break right, at the time I didn't think it was a bad move, didn't love it, but didn't think I would hate it this much. But it all gets factored in and moving a first round pick this year would have been an error in my opinion, especially for JayBo.

The pick is for 2014, not 2013.

 

[joe89]

I partially blame Holland but it's not all on him. Babcock and the players deserve equal or slight more blame. And you can blame a small percentage on the lockout.

We missed out Suter and Parise, but you can't really blame Holland entirely for them buddying up in Minny, but that's : at this point.

The Sammy signing was atrocious, but he barely played anyway, so we can't say we missed the playoffs cause Sammy was on the roster. People like to cry about the Coco signing but he's a 6th/7th defenseman, big deal. I also think he shoulda made a run at Semin.

Another thing I'd put on Holland is (and this kind relates to signing Sammy) prospects like Gus and Tatar shoulda been up full time this year and Smith last year.

I'm glad he didn't trade off prospects and picks for rentals or overpaid players like Jay-Bo. That woulda been awful.

Babcock, IMO, has been much worse than Holland this year. Some of his line combos, scratches and IT for certain players have been major heads scratchers this year.

If I had to break it down by percentage I'd say.

35% Babcock
30% Players
30% Holland
5% Lockout

I want to blame the players, but at the same time the only guy who has been firmly below expectations has been Filppula. Kronwall has been mediocre aswell but doing his part offensively. It's just not that great of a bunch. Even when they're playing their hearts out they don't get much to show for it, that's because talent is lacking. I'd put it 60 Holland, 30 Babcock, 10 players.

 

[Adityase]

No. Clearly the people who post here don't remember what it was like for the Wings to be crap. Honestly, the best thing for this group is for the Wings to be crap again. I don't want it. But the more I read the posts here, the more it's clear that it's probably for the best. Holland is better at this than any of us will be at any job we'll ever do in our lives. So people can criticize... but it needs to be filtered appropriately.

 

[Point Shot]

Nobody's blaming the obvious culprit. The cap.

Once the NHL became a cap world, the game changed. Holland can't go out and buy ten veterans off the free agent market or field the all-star team every year. Every team has the same buying power and every team has the same limit, which means every team eventually falls prey to the same boom and bust cycle.

This team isn't a bottom-feeder and the fact that we are not currently living in the cellar with the Avs and the Panthers is a credit to how Holland has managed life under the cap. Nothing he has done has been really awful except the Quincey deal, and the counterbalance there was scoring a relative home run with Brunner. I know the argument is he's not filling the lineup with young players now, but rushing a huge flock of unprepared prospects to the NHL both hurts the players' development and leaves the team drafting Seth Jones this year, as the Oilers have learned in years recent. I do not think Wings fans are seriously prepared to haunt the league basement. If we go no lower than a bubble team in a cap world, Holland is basically a guru.

(That said, teams have definitely figured out what Babcock is going to do with this team and maybe it's time for some turnover behind the bench. Nothing against Babs, but it's embarrassing how well teams like the Sharks have the Wings scouted.)

 

[garry1221]

Using this past offseason and the current season as a small sample size, the blame gets spread evenly down the line. Kenny put most of his eggs in the Parise/Suter basket. While waiting on that decision, he still went out and signed players that didn't fill the needs of this team. It's almost as if he read the writing on the wall and signed bodies just so he could say 'we lost there, but still have 'depth'. I've said it before, but when the most exciting signing was the Tootoo signing, it says a lot about how the team was managed.

As I said, blame goes right down the line. Injuries aside, Babcock seemed way too strict with line combinations the first 1/3 of the year. Things weren't happening, yet nothing was juggled. Hell, that goes for forwards and defense. Could it be, we didn't have the right types of players for him to effectively juggle lines? Who knows, but I throw it out there because it makes you think.

The players aren't absolved here either, but we all have our own opinions on who could/should have played better.

In the big picture looking back a few seasons, Kenny hasn't done enough to keep this team from it's current position. If he would have filled needs instead of signing 'depth', it's possible we're still in the hunt, if not contenders again this year. Asset management is the name of the game. For the last few seasons, Kenny's shown he doesn't really know that game.

 

[Point Shot]

Using this past offseason and the current season as a small sample size, the blame gets spread evenly down the line. Kenny put most of his eggs in the Parise/Suter basket. While waiting on that decision, he still went out and signed players that didn't fill the needs of this team. It's almost as if he read the writing on the wall and signed bodies just so he could say 'we lost there, but still have 'depth'. I've said it before, but when the most exciting signing was the Tootoo signing, it says a lot about how the team was managed.

As I said, blame goes right down the line. Injuries aside, Babcock seemed way too strict with line combinations the first 1/3 of the year. Things weren't happening, yet nothing was juggled. Hell, that goes for forwards and defense. Could it be, we didn't have the right types of players for him to effectively juggle lines? Who knows, but I throw it out there because it makes you think.

The players aren't absolved here either, but we all have our own opinions on who could/should have played better.

In the big picture looking back a few seasons, Kenny hasn't done enough to keep this team from it's current position. If he would have filled needs instead of signing 'depth', it's possible we're still in the hunt, if not contenders again this year. Asset management is the name of the game. For the last few seasons, Kenny's shown he doesn't really know that game.

Holland can't really go out and magically create an abundance of first-pairing stud UFA defencemen out of thin air.

Outside of Suter, the free agent d'man crop fell off pretty bad. What's plan B? Salo? Carle? You don't get what you need there, which is a guy with snarl who can play at both ends of the ice.

Thirty teams wanted Suter and Holland was the runner-up. As I recall, the only reason Suter is not a Wing is because Parise talked him out of it. It sucks but you can't blame Holland for that.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I want to blame the players, but at the same time the only guy who has been firmly below expectations has been Filppula. Kronwall has been mediocre aswell but doing his part offensively. It's just not that great of a bunch. Even when they're playing their hearts out they don't get much to show for it, that's because talent is lacking. I'd put it 60 Holland, 30 Babcock, 10 players.

Franzen has also been a disappointment.

7 goals in 33 games.

 

[14ari13]

Here's the problem with Holland, the Howard signing sums it up really. What kind of team could use a very good but not great goalie at a pretty high price tag? A contender probably. Are the Wings a contender? No. Will they be one any time soon? Highly unlikely. So how does this move make sense? It doesn't in a strategic sense, it does if you think roster management means rewarding good players, good guys who have provided good services rather than a comprehensive vision for the future. That's Kenny Holland in a nutshell. The guy will sit on a roster as long as he can. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are on the downward slope and Datsyuk is probably gone soon enough anyway. There is no contending core and none of the prospects are anywhere near the level where they will be one in the near future. Not saying they can't be good players, but good players don't get you anywhere in the NHL. Elite players get you somewhere and you have to be a perennial optimist to identify a potential future Hall of Famer in our prospect pool.

Very good post and that is exactly what is happening with this team.
I actuallly think that is what we should talk about, cause that is the direction this team is heading to now.

You can't be good forever in a cap world. It really has certainly changed quite a bit in the league.....also I'm not mad at KH..just disappointed in some of the moves in recent years. Mostly 1st for KQ. lol.

So, no KH doesn't play the games the Red Wings do. It's completely our fault. We let in weak goals and do not score enough. It's really that simple.

I believe that KQ trade is where a lot of people doubt KH.

Because he was overselling the chance of ours as the 8th seed. Honestly I think if we got Bouwmeester and lost in 6 games instead of 5 vs Chicago everyone would be raging about lost assets. Bouwmeester reaks of being a pseudo contender. I want a full PLANNED youth movement.

Boumeester is signed next season too. We should take him and trade/get rid of Cola and Quincey.

I partially blame Holland but it's not all on him. Babcock and the players deserve equal or slight more blame. And you can blame a small percentage on the lockout.

We missed out Suter and Parise, but you can't really blame Holland entirely for them buddying up in Minny, but that's : at this point.

The Sammy signing was atrocious, but he barely played anyway, so we can't say we missed the playoffs cause Sammy was on the roster. People like to cry about the Coco signing but he's a 6th/7th defenseman, big deal. I also think he shoulda made a run at Semin.

Another thing I'd put on Holland is (and this kind relates to signing Sammy) prospects like Gus and Tatar shoulda been up full time this year and Smith last year.

I'm glad he didn't trade off prospects and picks for rentals or overpaid players like Jay-Bo. That woulda been awful.

Babcock, IMO, has been much worse than Holland this year. Some of his line combos, scratches and IT for certain players have been major heads scratchers this year.

If I had to break it down by percentage I'd say.

35% Babcock
30% Players
30% Holland
5% Lockout

Boumeester was not rental.
Good point about blaming Babcock and his line combos. There are a very few posters understanding his lines.

This is a hard arguement.

If you want to say this has been a problem for years. Then you can say the GM. The problem with that is 20/20 hindsight, rose colour glasses. Some of the deals "us fans" want KH to make might have made our team MUCH worse MUCH faster, and completely ruined the team. So lets just stick to this year.

I blame mostly the Coach, because there are a few things that are INSANITY if analyzed right.

1) How is Tatar in the AHL right now. He was playing great.
2) Abby and Miller on the top 6?

Is this ONLY the coach? no that involves the GM too.

But I agree with this idea:

Lets cut almost everyone who is not 2nd line player or better (Z, D, Franzen, Brunner, Flip stay)
Everyone else over age 27 (bye bye)

Then play all rookies , keep miller

And hope the rookies make you good (a la Montreal). Its the rebuild on the fly gamble.

Babcock has to take some blame.

Nobody's blaming the obvious culprit. The cap.

Once the NHL became a cap world, the game changed. Holland can't go out and buy ten veterans off the free agent market or field the all-star team every year. Every team has the same buying power and every team has the same limit, which means every team eventually falls prey to the same boom and bust cycle.

This team isn't a bottom-feeder and the fact that we are not currently living in the cellar with the Avs and the Panthers is a credit to how Holland has managed life under the cap. Nothing he has done has been really awful except the Quincey deal, and the counterbalance there was scoring a relative home run with Brunner. I know the argument is he's not filling the lineup with young players now, but rushing a huge flock of unprepared prospects to the NHL both hurts the players' development and leaves the team drafting Seth Jones this year, as the Oilers have learned in years recent. I do not think Wings fans are seriously prepared to haunt the league basement. If we go no lower than a bubble team in a cap world, Holland is basically a guru.

(That said, teams have definitely figured out what Babcock is going to do with this team and maybe it's time for some turnover behind the bench. Nothing against Babs, but it's embarrassing how well teams like the Sharks have the Wings scouted.)

I actually think we can thanks the cap for the 2008 cup.

Franzen has also been a disappointment.

7 goals in 33 games.

Z has 8, Abdelkader and Cleary 8.
Says something about Z and Franzen production.

 

[Flowah]

Lets cut almost everyone who is not 2nd line player or better (Z, D, Franzen, Brunner, Flip stay)
Everyone else over age 27 (bye bye)

Then play all rookies , keep miller

Only keep Miller if he stays under a mill. He's great at his role, one of the better ones. But he is a dime a dozen. If he's costing more than a dime, like some of our other grinders, there's no real value to keeping him.

 

[detredWINgs]

Holland can't really go out and magically create an abundance of first-pairing stud UFA defencemen out of thin air.

Outside of Suter, the free agent d'man crop fell off pretty bad. What's plan B? Salo? Carle? You don't get what you need there, which is a guy with snarl who can play at both ends of the ice.

Thirty teams wanted Suter and Holland was the runner-up. As I recall, the only reason Suter is not a Wing is because Parise talked him out of it. It sucks but you can't blame Holland for that.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Holland supporters gloss right over the idea of trades, as though prospects and free agents are the only way to address a need.

 

[we like our team*]

the wings could really use a player like salo actually

 

[Point Shot]

It never ceases to amaze me how many Holland supporters gloss right over the idea of trades, as though prospects and free agents are the only way to address a need.

Name one Suter-level defenceman available this year on the trade market. Don't say Bouwmeester because he's simply not.

Franchises do not give their franchise defencemen away for magic beans and the contention that someone on the level of a Suter or Weber could be had for some magic combo of Kindl, Mursak and a bag of pucks never ceases to amaze me. If anyone on that level were available, you'd be looking at trading major roster players plus picks and prospects. And if you're talking the deadline, you're usually talking about playoff rentals. The Wings do not need mercenaries. They need young resources.

Crucify Holland for whatever you like, but getting on his case for not selling the farm for overpriced trade bait? Please. He deserves a medal for not paying out the nose for someone like Jaybo or Gaborik.

 

[detredWINgs]

Name one Suter-level defenceman available this year on the trade market. Don't say Bouwmeester because he's simply not.

Franchises do not give their franchise defencemen away for magic beans and the contention that someone on the level of a Suter or Weber could be had for some magic combo of Kindl, Mursak and a bag of pucks never ceases to amaze me. If anyone on that level were available, you'd be looking at trading major roster players plus picks and prospects. And if you're talking the deadline, you're usually talking about playoff rentals. The Wings do not need mercenaries. They need young resources.

Crucify Holland for whatever you like, but getting on his case for not selling the farm for overpriced trade bait? Please. He deserves a medal for not paying out the nose for someone like Jaybo or Gaborik.

So you think we're privy to all the players that are potentially available? You think GMs send out emails about every player they might potentially move for the right price?

Also, who's talking about a Suter-level defenseman? There's a huge gap between signing Suter and signing White, Quincey, or Cola.

And you think St. Louis paid out the nose for Bouwmeester when you fail to mention trading for Kyle Quincey?

And, oh god, trading roster players plus picks and prospects for a good player???? WHAT A TERRIBLE IDEA. How CRAZY is it that anyone would give QUALITY if they WANT QUALITY?!?!!? Somebody call the press!!

Holland, is that you?

 

[HTT3*]

It never ceases to amaze me how many Holland supporters gloss right over the idea of trades, as though prospects and free agents are the only way to address a need.

If I remember correctly, there were reports of Holland actively seeking out trades. Nothing worked out. Why? probably because he'd have to mortgage the entire future and overpay. Trading players on xBox is probably a lot easier than the real world.

 

[detredWINgs]

If I remember correctly, there were reports of Holland actively seeking out trades. Nothing worked out. Why? probably because he'd have to mortgage the entire future and overpay. Trading players on xBox is probably a lot easier than the real world.

Yes. I'm sure the going price for X player was a few 1st round picks, 3-5 of our top prospects, and any young player of consequence. Surely "mortgaging the future" is the going rate for any trade of significance.

Also, are we talking about the preceding month? Has this team not been losing key personnel since 2010? Have we not progressively lost talent and ground in the standings over the past 3 off-seasons and 3 deadlines?

Lastly, the average NHL team has made 24.5 trades since 2010. The Championship teams of that same time period have made an average of 22 trades. And only 2 teams have made fewer than 15 trades in that time - Buffalo(13) and Detroit(8). Its interesting that so many trades have been made, and yet some have actually been made without the exchange of one team's entire future.

You're arguing with someone who saw the obvious opportunity last off-season to sell high on an overperforming Val Filppula when we needed consistent top 6 wingers or shutdown defenseman much more than we did soft, finesse secondary scorers.

 

[HTT3*]

Yes. I'm sure the going price for X player was a few 1st round picks, 3-5 of our top prospects, and any young player of consequence. Surely "mortgaging the future" is the going rate for any trade of significance.

Also, are we talking about the preceding month? Has this team not been losing key personnel since 2010? Have we not progressively lost talent and ground in the standings over the past 3 off-seasons and 3 deadlines?

Lastly, the average NHL team has made 24.5 trades since 2010. The Championship teams of that same time period have made an average of 22 trades. And only 2 teams have made fewer than 15 trades in that time - Buffalo(13) and Detroit(8). Its interesting that so many trades have been made, and yet some have actually been made without the exchange of one team's entire future.

You're arguing with someone who saw the obvious opportunity last off-season to sell high on an overperforming Val Filppula when we needed consistent top 6 wingers or shutdown defenseman much more than we did soft, finesse secondary scorers.

Doesn't xBox have a salary cap feature? The real NHL does... and I'm pretty sure the team was up against the wall. I also seem to remember nobody being absolutely sure what the cap was going to be, so it made spending a bit difficult in terms of putting yourself in cap hell.

The dreaded salary cap world,,,, it's such a ***** isn't it?

Since 2010 what 3 teams won the cup?

- Chicago
- Boston
- Kings

I'm curious how many years those teams were mediocre (or bottom feeders) before they won the cup. Did any of the above teams get top 15 picks in the last 10 years? i think they did. When was the last time Detroit had a top 15 pick? ???

....Yeah, building an all-star roster is probably easier on NHL13. In the real world, there is a thing called salary cap, drafting, and assets. Holland didn't walk on water or turn water into wine, therefore, people are mad. Funny

 

[detredWINgs]

Doesn't xBox have a salary cap feature? The real NHL does... and I'm pretty sure the team was up against the wall. I also seem to remember nobody being absolutely sure what the cap was going to be, so it made spending a bit difficult in terms of putting yourself in cap hell.

The dreaded salary cap world,,,, it's such a ***** isn't it?

Since 2010 what 3 teams won the cup?

- Chicago
- Boston
- Kings

I'm curious how many years those teams were mediocre (or bottom feeders) before they won the cup. Did any of the above teams get top 15 picks in the last 10 years? i think they did. When was the last time Detroit had a top 15 pick? ???

....Yeah, building an all-star roster is probably easier on NHL13. In the real world, there is a thing called salary cap, drafting, and assets. Holland didn't walk on water or turn water into wine, therefore, people are mad. Funny

You know what can fix problems with a salary cap? Making a trade.

You know what happens when you have a ton of top 15 picks? They mature into stars, and then you run into cap problems.

You know what those teams did when they ran into cap problems? They made trades.

You know where those teams are after making trades to address their problems? Back contending for the cup.

Here's a link where I addressed this argument in depth in a recent thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1397181&page=3

 

[Henkka]

Do we really have to have something to blame all the time?

That's an horrible attitude.

I won't even bother to answer in this ridiculous question.