If the Red Wings miss the playoffs will you blame Ken Holland?

[The Zetterberg Era]

You know who the Wings could really use right now for some additional offense?

I think it's at this point where I can officially bring out the "I told you so" with regards to Hudler NOT failing elsewhere and Detroit wishing they had kept him.



Holland reportedly tried to get Salo as a UFA.

Hudler's team is failing pretty miserably. So for those that always said he has offensive talent and could put up numbers without being a huge factor in a game that is also proving out. Have been calling Hudler Koslov for a while. Guy was pretty good at times in Detroit but really hammered down in Atlanta, because the opportunity was there on a bad team.

Hudler was not worth 4 million dollars and I like Hudler. He doesn't dictate outcomes in games very often, his connection with Filppula would help though.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The declining quality of the roster has been going on for 3 seasons not 4 months. And, just to be clear, I don't attribute the decline to a loss of star-power. I think he has really missed the boat on how the league changed into a much younger, much faster, much bigger, more physical game. That's on him.

Fine and I qualified it a little better in the edit. My belief is this team is good enough to make the playoffs. They won't do much once there, but I have a hard time blaming Holland for them missing it altogether. Certainly he will get some blame, but the lions share? The players and coaches have left points on the table, it isn't like we are in 13th place right now.

Holland needs to make more significant tweaks going forward, he tried and failed this past off-season. But what he did do was put together a team that should be in the playoffs as is.

 

[crashman]

You know who the Wings could really use right now for some additional offense?

I think it's at this point where I can officially bring out the "I told you so" with regards to Hudler NOT failing elsewhere and Detroit wishing they had kept him.



Holland reportedly tried to get Salo as a UFA.

They also could have used Helm, Bertuzzi and Sammy, but they all missed most of the season.

We might have scored more goals and won more games with a healthy Hudler, but we'd be in worse shape going forward with his contract.

Not re-signing Hudler was one of the few good moves/non-moves Holland has made recently. No way in hell do I wish we kept him with Tatar and Nyquist looking as good as they do.

I'll concede one thing though, Huds is a better player than Brunner, that's for sure.

 

[Flowah]

I'll concede one thing though, Huds is a better player than Brunner, that's for sure.

Not a chance. Brunner is loads faster and still has a pretty good shoot first mentality. Give him a full season. This team lacks a shoot first guy. Even Franzen dishes it off too readily when he has lanes. Datsyuk, Filp, Nyquist. All prefer to pass. Z takes shots but his shot is kinda meh.

Brunner is what this team needs more of. Shooters. Hudler was no shooter.

 

[Winger98]

Not a chance. Brunner is loads faster and still has a pretty good shoot first mentality. Give him a full season. This team lacks a shoot first guy. Even Franzen dishes it off too readily when he has lanes. Datsyuk, Filp, Nyquist. All prefer to pass. Z takes shots but his shot is kinda meh.

Brunner is what this team needs more of. Shooters. Hudler was no shooter.

they don't put Z or Brunner into positions to get their shots off. Babcock's bomb it at the net and scramble like hell takes the puck off their sticks, and takes them out of position. It also takes guys out of position to receive passes when Z or D are lugging the puck from one side of the offensive zone to the other.

I think we'd see more shots from guys if we focused more on getting them shots. Especially on the power play.

 

[Syckle78]

There's a reason this team has not improved since 2009, and it's not Ken Holland. How many times to we have to say this? It was the salary cap. The salary cap forced a roster crunch that depleted our depth. We didn't have much in the farm system then, and we were focused on signing as many people as possible to retain that depth and we couldn't because FA's sign for different teams sometimes. That's what Samuelsson and Hudler did. We didn't have much in the system, if anything that could have been considered NHL ready at all. Then we had to rely on cheap plugs like Bertuzzi and Miller and Eaves. I already highlighted this. It's hard to blame Holland because the circumstances would make it difficult for ANY GM to work a team at that time post 2009.

Quit blaming the cap. People keep acting like you have to have top 5 picks in the salary cap world to compete for the cup. Guess what all you guys are ignoring? We already had our top of the draft talent on the roster.

Datsyuk, zetterberg, Howard, lidstrom, kronwall, Franzen, filpula and Helm. All of them are players of top 15 talent at the lowest.

He had to be aggressive / creative to surround them with the right supporting cast. He flat our failed. Not on failing to get omg nhl 13 roster players and not on mortgaging the future. He held onto mid level players too long and paid them too much.


Enough with the lame ass excuses. He failed at his job, flat out.

 

[Hckytwn]

Failure of this nature over the course of four months does not attribute to one area of blame. Holland will deserve some of he blame, but identifying what went wrong like you are suggesting is a much broader answer than just blaming Holland outright.

In fact if you come up just a point or two short, the team had the playoffs there for the taking. Late game meltdowns like the one against Chicago or 5 minutes spells where Kronwall and White decided to pass to the other team for three straight goals stick out like a sore thumb. The truth is the Wings are right there and control their destiny as far as the playoffs, if they miss the playoffs that is going to be on the coaches and players. The downward trend is mostly on Holland, but the question is about the playoffs being missed. This team is flat out good enough to make the playoffs, especially entering the season with the belief Helm would be around. It was constructed as a playoff team and I believe it is. Holland needs to improve it into a better team the next couple of years however as there are some alarming trends happening with this team.

First off, your above analysis is fair. What isn't fair, and what I was replying to the Hennka about, is to say it's "ridiculous" to even ask if Holland is to blame.

I agree with the statement in red, but that can be said of any team (i.e. "if only they executed to their ability, they'd win".) In reality, nearly every team will have underperformers and overperformers--even Cup Champs. I don't know if it's helpful in this case. The Red Wings, skill-wise, were projected as a playoff bubble team... and they largely met that expectation. This isn't 2001 or 2006 were a talented Wings team failed to meet expectations.

I think the question here is though: Did Holland do his job well enough, making the necessary moves to give this team a good chance?

For example, I think it's a reasonable argument to make that if we signed Semin (just as an example) instead of a Samuelson, those ~10 additional goals could've probably yielded an additional 3-4 points in the standings, enough to make the playoffs.

 

[Hckytwn]

Hudler's team is failing pretty miserably. So for those that always said he has offensive talent and could put up numbers without being a huge factor in a game that is also proving out. Have been calling Hudler Koslov for a while. Guy was pretty good at times in Detroit but really hammered down in Atlanta, because the opportunity was there on a bad team.

Hudler was not worth 4 million dollars and I like Hudler. He doesn't dictate outcomes in games very often, his connection with Filppula would help though.

The real question is which of these is more valuable to this team:

A) Samuelsson @ $3M + $1M of unused cap space
B) Hudler @ $4M

Because we got (A) and could've had (B).

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think the question here is though: Did Holland do his job well enough, making the necessary moves to give this team a good chance?

A chance at being in the playoffs? Absolutely in my opinion. A chance at winning the cup without just exceptional breaks or incredible runs of form from almost all player? No, he didn't do that.

Once again for me at least missing the playoffs will be on the coaches and players because this team is good enough to make them. As the manager of the team Holland will get some blame and deserves some blame, but when the percentages come down, he sits behind the two groups I will be upset with the most.

Not being able to win a Stanley Cup, is on Holland and Babcock, both from a talent perspective and how they are choosing to operate the talent they do have.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The real question is which of these is more valuable to this team:

A) Samuelsson @ $3M + $1M of unused cap space
B) Hudler @ $4M

Because we got (A) and could've had (B).

Hudler has three more years at that figure, so it isn't that cut and dry.

I didn't want them to sign Sammy, said it with the little fire icon/smiley right before the draft. But he did answer some of the things we needed but hasn't played. He brings size a righthanded shot and a shoot first mentality. Unfortunately it didn't turn out great for at least this season so far. But that doesn't change my opinion on not giving Hudler 4 million dollars or the term he got at that figure.

 

[crashman]

Not a chance. Brunner is loads faster and still has a pretty good shoot first mentality. Give him a full season. This team lacks a shoot first guy. Even Franzen dishes it off too readily when he has lanes. Datsyuk, Filp, Nyquist. All prefer to pass. Z takes shots but his shot is kinda meh.

Brunner is what this team needs more of. Shooters. Hudler was no shooter.

I hear you, and I'd rather have Brunner on this team (at a reasonable salary) than Hudler. But Huds is currently the better player, that's all I'm saying. Hudler's play-making ability is way beyond Brunner's at this point.

 

[r7carlson24]

These factors are kind of on Holland.

Stuart leaving at the end of last season was the worst kept secret in the NHL. Any realistic person knew he was gone no matter what the Wings did to try to resign. Holland needs to recognize that and move him for some significant assets. Instead he waited too long.

Lidstrom retiring was probably somewhat of a surprise but at the same time, Holland has to better prepare himself for the inevitable. Whether that means Smith up all of last year making his rookie mistakes next to Lidstrom rather than Quincey or moving Stuart or other players in order to make room to bring in an outside guy to help fill the void.


I've said this over and over, but, Holland needs to rediscover the art of trades in the NHL. This waiting until the deadline (FA or Trade) garbage that he has been pulling the past 5 years is pathetically stale and, obviously, a losing repertoire. He needs to identify what he wants for the team and go get it in-season before the deadline where there are 10 other teams willing drive the price up. He may need to pay a higher price than he would like but he'll pay way less than he would at the deadline and he'll have a better chance of not striking out.

But as the GM of a team that was a legitimate contender for the Cup, who can't trade one of your top 4 defenseman because there's a good chance he'll leave. He also had essentially 3 teams he could trade Stuart to. Anaheim, San Jose, or LA. Everyone knew Stuie was going back to California. No GM is going to give up a ton when the player is going to 100% walk in a few months. The goal is to win the Cup and Stuart was a key part of that. He also gave the 1st rounder up for Quincey because he thought Quincey could be a part of the run and the fact it was going to be a late 1st rounder. At the time he obviously thought Quincey could replace Stuie and that hasn't been the case, although I think Quincey has been fairly decent this year.

I agree that we should have had a better replacement plan in place for Lids, but it's tough to sign his heir when he is still on the roster and making almost $7 mil a year. I also believe that Suter was 99% for sure coming here and had a change of heart right before signing. I guess we should have had a plan B, but there wasn't anything great out there.

I 100% agree with your last part about the trades. I think Holland needs to face the music and perhaps overpay just a little bit in the off-season to make this team better. It's clear not everyone is willing to take a pay cut to come here. Last off-season showed us that.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

It's amazing how many people refuse to relinquish the myth that the GM is in control of everything and that nothing could possibly be out of his control, including quite important events.

 

[sepster]

And you refuse to acknowledge that 4 years of going backwards is more than just bad luck.

If Holland just hit a year or two of missing out on improving the team, he has earned that leeway no problem. But 4, going on 5 seasons, of adding nothing but plugs? That would lose a GM their job 9 times out of 10.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

Yes. Multiple people would deserve some blame (Babcock especially), but Holland is the manager of the team. It his job to put a winning team on the ice and to give the Head
Coach the tools he needs to make a run at a championship.

We are the Detroit Red Wings. Being a playoff bubble team and hoping that "anything can happen" is not a viable vision for this team.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

It's amazing how many people refuse to relinquish the myth that the GM is in control of everything and that nothing could possibly be out of his control, including quite important events.

Besides injuries and retirements (he should have plans in place for both), what events are you referring to? Missing out on Suter was not beyond his control, and he clearly didn't have a good backup plan for that whiff either.

 

[Point Shot]

It's amazing how many people refuse to relinquish the myth that the GM is in control of everything and that nothing could possibly be out of his control, including quite important events.

It's a convenient myth when fans want a scapegoat.

I would go so far as to say the only thing I put on Holland is dealing for Quincey. The rest is players who aren't hustling. A lot of times that's a motivation problem, which is on the coach.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

It's a convenient myth when fans want a scapegoat.

I would go so far as to say the only thing I put on Holland is dealing for Quincey. The rest is players who aren't hustling. A lot of times that's a motivation problem, which is on the coach.

Is Holland not responsible for the coach? Babcock's message to our players may be stale, but that is because Kenny has done nothing to turn the roster over and phase out indifferent plugs for fresh bodies.

 

[crashman]

Besides injuries and retirements (he should have plans in place for both), what events are you referring to? Missing out on Suter was not beyond his control, and he clearly didn't have a good backup plan for that whiff either.

If the reports of what the $$ the Red Wings offered were true, then Suter was going to the Wild no matter what. Yes, they may of offered more, but I honestly think he used the Wings as a bargaining chip to achieve the max salary with the team he wanted to play for. The guy was never honest during contract negations, mostly with Nashville.

Paying Suter more (or as much) as the Wild did, would have been stupid in a salary capped league.

 

[sepster]

It's a convenient myth when fans want a scapegoat.

I would go so far as to say the only thing I put on Holland is dealing for Quincey. The rest is players who aren't hustling. A lot of times that's a motivation problem, which is on the coach.

Emmerton, Miller and Eaves will never be an effective 4th line no matter how much they hustle. They aren't the right players. Too small, not good enough defensively, no grit.

Cleary is not a top 6 forward regardless of how hard he tries.

Samuelsson is not a top 6 forward regardless of how hard he tries.

Kronwall is not a #1 Dman regardless of how hard he tries.

Bertuzzi is no longer a top 6 forward regardless of how hard he tries.

Tootoo can not be the only guy who adds grit and abrasiveness to the Wings regardless of how hard he tries.

The Wings problem does not stem from an effort level. It stems from players being tasked to play well beyond their skill set because the GM has built a seriously flawed roster.

 

[HTT3*]

You know what can fix problems with a salary cap? Making a trade.

Who? Are teams lining up to take trade for Cleary and Bertuzzi?

You know what happens when you have a ton of top 15 picks? They mature into stars, and then you run into cap problems.

Let me guess, you trade them for more assets that can help you? Thanks for proving my point, Wings don't have a mass quantity of top 15 draft picks who became stars to trade for a cup run in 2013. Wings past success is why they are slumping this year. Will they slump in 2 or 3 years? I doubt it.

You know what those teams did when they ran into cap problems? They made trades.

Again, assets Detroit just does not have....

You know where those teams are after making trades to address their problems? Back contending for the cup.

Great plan, but you fail to acknowledge that Detroit just does not have trade-able assets to fill the two major holes this team needs (assuming the team was healthy; i.e. Helm), Wings would be in a much better situation. Add Duncan Keith, Oprik, and a top 6 powerforward like Lucic, this team might be a contender. Who is Holland suppose to trade to get those kind of players? Nobody, Wings DON'T HAVE THE ASSETS!!!1!!1!!!!!

Here's a link where I addressed this argument in depth in a recent thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1397181&page=3

Not interested in reading more posts from you because you are clearly out of touch with real world trading and assets. Holland can't turn water into gold.

 

[HTT3*]

The real question is which of these is more valuable to this team:

A) Samuelsson @ $3M + $1M of unused cap space
B) Hudler @ $4M

Because we got (A) and could've had (B).

I'll take a healthy Samuelsson 100 times out of 100... and twice on Sunday and four times on Tuesday!

Samuelsson is a 6'2 right handed shooter that can skate and had put up 30 goals just a few years ago and is BEAST in the playoffs compared to 5'8 Hudler that skates like he is stuck in the mud and get's abused on every shift like a rag doll in the playoffs. The choice was simple.

 

[Bench]

Holland hasn't been terrible, but it would still be his fault. The buck stops with him. The way Holmgren needs to chill out, Holland might need more gusto.

At least all the best prospects are still in the system.

 

[detredWINgs]

Who? Are teams lining up to take trade for Cleary and Bertuzzi?

Let me guess, you trade them for more assets that can help you? Thanks for proving my point, Wings don't have a mass quantity of top 15 draft picks who became stars to trade for a cup run in 2013. Wings past success is why they are slumping this year. Will they slump in 2 or 3 years? I doubt it.

Again, assets Detroit just does not have....

Great plan, but you fail to acknowledge that Detroit just does not have trade-able assets to fill the two major holes this team needs (assuming the team was healthy; i.e. Helm), Wings would be in a much better situation. Add Duncan Keith, Oprik, and a top 6 powerforward like Lucic, this team might be a contender. Who is Holland suppose to trade to get those kind of players? Nobody, Wings DON'T HAVE THE ASSETS!!!1!!1!!!!!

Not interested in reading more posts from you because you are clearly out of touch with real world trading and assets. Holland can't turn water into gold.

Aaron Ward. Marco Sturm (as a Bruin). Brian Campbell. Ales Kotalik. Tim Thomas. Alexi Ponikarovsky. Daymond Langkow. Matthew Lombardi. Trent Hunter. Z Michalek (as a Pen). Scott Gomez.

Overpaid. Injured. Useless. Refusing to play. Traded.

Yes. Trading crappy contracts into order to create cap space is impossible. And I'm the one who is out of touch with the trade world.

As for "who", Hudler at the 2009 draft and Filppula at last year's draft or off-season.

But, of course, only top 15 picks get traded for anything of value, so what am I thinking?

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

You can't blame Holland (or Babcock, for that matter) for the team playing with their heads up their a-- like they do most nights. It's been going on since Jacques Demers was the coach, it's maddening!