If McDavid does not win a Cup, but ends up with better regular seasons, would you consider him better than Sid?

[bambamcam4ever]

2016 IIHF World Championship * I guess it was his rookie year. my bad.
2015 IIHF World U20 Championship
2013 IIHF U18 World Championship

So he won 2 week all-star tournaments with a maple leaf on his sweater, I was looking for team success with the team he played with all year.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

It isn't irrelevant. Gretzky and Lemieux played what? A combined 35 seasons in the NHL? Did they ever win one single time without a virtual All-Star team around them?

The Kings won 2 Cups because Doughty is pretty damn close to a generational D-Man at that point and Quick was a Vezina tier D in his career and they had tremendous offensive depth.

So…. DD is what, a notch below Orr now? And Quick, who never won a Vezina in his career, is suddenly Ken Dryden?

And the Kings had tremendous offensive depth? Like Oilers dynasty tremendous?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

A great player has to win Cups/championships, it's just the burden every great player has put on them. It's in every sport too, why do you think Michael Jordan broke down in tears after winning the Bulls first title, because all he heard for years to that point was Magic/Bird are better than you because you can't win a championship.

That said, almost none of these guys (Crosby, Gretzky, Malkin) have ever won anything without a lot of run support if not full blown loaded teams around them.

Even in 08-09, Letang was already by the playoffs turning into an All-Star caliber D, Gonchar was still a big point producer, and while MAF had a bad series against Washington in the Finals against Detroit in all 4 Penguins wins, he was absolutely dominant (save percentage of .931, .949, .962, .958 in the 4 Pens wins, the last two games being game 6/7 ... it almost becomes hard to lose a hockey game when your goalie is above .930).

And frankly, Crosby was kind of mediocre in the 2009 Finals ... 3 points in 7 games total, 0 points in game 5, 6 and the deciding game 7. MAF and Malkin took over that series to lead Pittsburgh to the win.

That's not crapping on Crosby, he is an unbelievable player, but it just goes to show ... you need help from teammates.

Fleury had the worst SV% for a cup-winning goalie since 1992 until Kuemper last year. Letang was still 2 years from entering his prime, and Gonchar was hobbled from OV taking out his knee. Mike Smith was substantially better last playoffs than Fleury in 09. There hasn't been a cup winner with less help for their top 2 guys than the 09 Penguins.

 

[Soundwave]

So…. DD is what, a notch below Orr now? And Quick, who never won a Vezina in his career, is suddenly Ken Dryden?

And the Kings had tremendous offensive depth? Like Oilers dynasty tremendous?

Factoring in offence AND defence, as a D-Man I'd say Doughty at his peak prime is not far removed from Pronger or Lidstrom. Maybe not as high end offensively as Lidstrom, but actual defensive ability it's close. And he could put up offensive numbers too.

There's not many D I would say are better than Doughty the last 20-30 years at his peak ... like you can say shit like "yeah but Roman Josi had a ton more points last year" ... but Doughty can put up numbers while being way better defensively than Josi and physically punishing to play against too.

Speaking of the Oilers depth ...

Like lol, this is a literal All-Star team. In today's game this would be like

Gretzky = McDavid
Messier = MacKinnon
Coffey = Fox or Makar
Fuhr = Hellybuck
Kurri = Panarin or Rantanen
Lowe = Brodin
Anderson = Tkachuk
Moog = Lehner

All on one team?

 

[Soundwave]

Fleury had the worst SV% for a cup-winning goalie since 1992 until Kuemper last year. Letang was still 2 years from entering his prime, and Gonchar was hobbled from OV taking out his knee. Mike Smith was substantially better last playoffs than Fleury in 09. There hasn't been a cup winner with less help for their top 2 guys than the 09 Penguins.

While MAF didn't have a balls to the wall playoffs in 09, when it mattered he was huge. MAF was the best Penguins player in the 09 Finals, if the NHL awarded a Finals MVP like the NBA does, MAF would be the 09 Finals MVP.

The Red Wings were up 3-2 in the series and shut down Crosby and Malkin in games 6 + 7 holding them to only 1 point (an assist for Malkin).

In most cases that should be an auto Red Wings Cup.

So what happened?

MAF freaking killed them ... .962 and .958 save percentage in the pivotal games 6 and 7. That's unbelievable.

 

[tacogeoff]

So he won 2 week all-star tournaments with a maple leaf on his sweater, I was looking for team success with the team he played with all year.

i guess we just sweep crosby's golden goal under the rug then?

 

[TheNumber4]

This is another thread where many here defending McDavid have probably never played competitive sports.

Cups matter more then anything. Ask a player if the Stanley Cup doesn’t matter.

It’s like playing bot lobbies in call of duty compared to playing for 100k against the best in the world and coming out on top.

Sid has three Cups. Until McDavid touches that he’s always in Sids rear view.

Hagelin has 2 Cups as well. McDavid must be in his rear view as well.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

While MAF didn't have a balls to the wall playoffs in 09, when it mattered he was huge. MAF was the best Penguins player in the 09 Finals, if the NHL awarded a Finals MVP like the NBA does, MAF would be the 09 Finals MVP.

The Red Wings were up 3-2 in the series and shut down Crosby and Malkin in games 6 + 7 holding them to only 1 point (an assist for Malkin).

In most cases that should be an auto Red Wings Cup.

So what happened?

MAF freaking killed them ... .962 and .958 save percentage in the pivotal games 6 and 7. That's unbelievable.

MAF was part of it, but the team had the defensive discipline instilled in them by Therrien and committed to keeping the puck out of their net at any cost. Like watch the end of game 6, Fleury slides way out of position in the final minute and Scuderi is playing goalie instead. I still vividly remember watching those games and not once did I think Fleury was saving the team. Those games are available online, we don't need to stat watch

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Hagelin has 2 Cups as well. McDavid must be in his rear view as well.

Dumb trope again

 

[Soundwave]

MAF was part of it, but the team had the defensive discipline instilled in them by Therrien and committed to keeping the puck out of their net at any cost. Like watch the end of game 6, Fleury slides way out of position in the final minute and Scuderi is playing goalie instead. I still vividly remember watching those games and not once did I think Fleury was saving the team. Those games are available online, we don't need to stat watch

Honestly Crosby was kind of awful in the 09 Finals.

He was tied for 6th (6th!) on the Penguins in scoring with Fedotenko, blanked in the last 3 games of the series, -3 for the series, he honestly wasn't even one of the 5 best players in that Finals series.

The NHL was probably dying to give him the Conn Smythe trophy, but he was so bad in the Finals they kinda had to give it to Malkin.

Everyone needs some run support, I'm not saying he's not great, but it just goes to show even the best players get a lot of help when they win.

If that was the NBA and Jordan or Kobe or LeBron or Shaq had a Finals where they were that (relatively) poor but won anyway, it would actually be probably a large knock against their legacy, lol.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Honestly Crosby was kind of awful in the 09 Finals.

He was tied for 6th (6th!) on the Penguins in scoring with Fedotenko, -3 for the series, he honestly wasn't even one of the 5 best players in that Finals.

You can watch the games man, Crosby created tons of chances, he can't force his linemates to put it in the net. Saying he wasn't one of the 5 best players in the series looks bad on you.

Plus it's not like McDavid has even been to the finals...

 

[Soundwave]

You can watch the games man, Crosby created tons of chances, he can't force his linemates to put it in the net. Saying he wasn't one of the 5 best players in the series looks bad on you.

Plus it's not like McDavid has even been to the finals...

I did watch the series, he wasn't very good in the Finals. I've watched most every Cup Finals for the last 25 years at least.

My point is not to take a crap on him, it's just to point out the obvious ... great players still need help.

Gretzky is the best ever, clear cut GOAT, yada, yada, yada ... yet he couldn't win even 1 lousy Cup without a literal All-Star team around him, a team so good they could win a Cup even without him and Coffey (no.1 D) and Fuhr (no.1 G) ... that's absurd.

Last year is really the first year McDavid had some OK run support in his career, and it's not like Evander Kane and Zack Hyman are superstar players. I'd easily take a 2015 Phil Kessel or 2008 Marian Hossa over either of them. He took a team with really Brett Kulak as the no.1 D (since Nurse tore his hip flexor before even game 1 of the playoffs) and Draisaitl on one leg with a 40 year old goalie to a Conference Finals.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Dan Marino never won a super bowl but is still one of the best QBs to ever play.

Can't fault McDavid that the team he plays for can't build a team around him

 

[pistolpete11]

Through age 25 season

McDavid averaged 117 points / 82 games
Crosby averaged 116 points / 82 games

Plus Crosby is a better all around player and had won a Cup by that point. If it wasn't for all the injuries Sid had to deal with, this wouldn't even be close.

So yeah, McDavid's gotta win some Cups to pass Crosby.....or I guess keep scoring at a 120 point pace well into his 30's.

 

[Soundwave]

Through age 25 season

McDavid averaged 117 points / 82 games
Crosby averaged 116 points / 82 games

Plus Crosby is a better all around player and had won a Cup by that point. If it wasn't for all the injuries Sid had to deal with, this wouldn't even be close.

So yeah, McDavid's gotta win some Cups to pass Crosby.....or I guess keep scoring at a 120 point pace well into his 30's.

The sad thing is Peter Chiarelli is probably as much an impediment to McDavid having team success as concussions were to Crosby, lol.

Being hamstrung by the worst GM in pro sports possibly is quite something, we're talking about someone who traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson, bet the farm on Lucic being the Oilers no.1 winger for years to come, and passed on Barzal/Connor for Griffin Reinhart and again passed on the no brainer of DeBrincat (McDavid's junior star teammate) for Tyler freaking Benson.

McDavid/Draisaitl almost got to a Conference Finals in 2017 with Patrick Maroon as their best winger and the sad part is Maroon is probably the best winger they had since Holland finally got them Hyman and Kane to play with last year and Kane they really only got by a fluke because his wife decided to go on a crazy social media rampage because he went back to his previous girlfriend.

Oscar Klefbom is probably the best D McDavid has ever gotten to play with and he was only healthy in one year (2017) before developing freaking shoulder arthritis at age 25 (can't even make this shit up, lol). Cam Talbot in 2017 or a older than shit Mike Smith are the best goalies he's had possibly until this year.

Malkin/Draisaitl aside, Sid has played with a lot better talent especially at crucial positions, he's had fairly high end no.1 D and no.1 G for most of his career and then when he couldn't win anything for a long stretch they got gifted a third superstar player in Phil Kessel before they could win again.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I did watch the series, he wasn't very good in the Finals. I've watched most every Cup Finals for the last 25 years at least.

My point is not to take a crap on him, it's just to point out the obvious ... great players still need help.

Gretzky is the best ever, clear cut GOAT, yada, yada, yada ... yet he couldn't win even 1 lousy Cup without a literal All-Star team around him, a team so good they could win a Cup even without him and Coffey (no.1 D) and Fuhr (no.1 G) ... that's absurd.

Last year is really the first year McDavid had some OK run support in his career, and it's not like Evander Kane and Zack Hyman are superstar players. I'd easily take a 2015 Phil Kessel or 2008 Marian Hossa over either of them. He took a team with really Brett Kulak as the no.1 D (since Nurse tore his hip flexor before even game 1 of the playoffs) and Draisaitl on one leg with a 40 year old goalie to a Conference Finals.

It's a bit ironic that on one hand you defend McDavid's lack of playoff success on not having a good enough supporting cast, but on the other hand you say Crosby was bad in the 2009 finals without acknowledging the fact a player can only produce so much if his linemates are incapable of burying chances he creates for them.

In one case you're saying it takes a team to be successful, but on the other you're condemning an individual player over something that's teammate (or at least linemate) dependent.

Chris Kunitz had ONE GOAL all playoffs. You don't think that affects Crosby's overall production? Or are you saying that it's Crosby's fault for not being a good enough passer that Kunitz scored so little?

 

[Soundwave]

It's a bit ironic that on one hand you defend McDavid's lack of playoff success on not having a good enough supporting cast, but on the other hand you say Crosby was bad in the 2009 finals without acknowledging the fact a player can only produce so much if his linemates are incapable of burying chances he creates for them.

In one case you're saying it takes a team to be successful, but on the other you're condemning an individual player over something that's teammate (or at least linemate) dependent.

Chris Kunitz had ONE GOAL all playoffs. You don't think that affects Crosby's overall production? Or are you saying that it's Crosby's fault for not being a good enough passer that Kunitz scored so little?

The fact is McDavid outside of Draisaitl has had very little help in his career. Last year was the first time he even got a tiny bit of run support and really probably you can thank Anna Kane for that more than anything.

How old is Letang now? 90 years old? If you put him on the Oilers even today, that's probably the best d-man McDavid has ever had in his career.

You gonna complain about Kunitz? Hey try Lucic post 2017 as your franchise winger for multiple years and that being your GM's big ticket move that you sold your (at the time) 2nd best player for (lulz). Watching him stick handle these days is just sad.

Crosby from basically his 2nd year onwards when he has played has always had solid teams around him, you could always pick up the roster to start a season or completed by the trade deadline and see a clear no.1 D, no.1 G (sometimes two no.1 Gs), usually a good solid 3C, some decent enough support wings, fun deadline adds like an Iginla here or a Hossa there, bottom 6ers, etc. I mean look at the 2017-18 Oilers that Chiarelli built. Woof.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The fact is McDavid outside of Draisaitl has had very little help in his career. Last year was the first time he even got a tiny bit of run support and really probably you can thank Anna Kane for that more than anything.

How old is Letang now? 90 years old? If you put him on the Oilers even today, that's probably the best d-man McDavid has ever had in his career.

You gonna complain about Kunitz? Hey try Lucic post 2017 as your franchise winger for multiple years and that being your GM's big ticket move that you sold your (at the time) 2nd best player for (lulz). Watching him stick handle these days is just sad.

Crosby from basically his 2nd year onwards when he has played has always had solid teams around him, you could always pick up the roster to start a season or completed by the trade deadline and see a clear no.1 D, no.1 G (sometimes two no.1 Gs), usually a good solid 3C, some decent enough support wings, fun deadline adds like an Iginla here or a Hossa there, bottom 6ers, etc. I mean look at the 2017-18 Oilers that Chiarelli built. Woof.

You didn't even address my point. Which is you're defending McDavid's lack of playoff success as "one person can't do it all" while saying Crosby's 2009 finals was poor because of his lack of production, ignoring the fact that he can't exactly make Kunitz and Guerin score goals.

My point is Crosby's overall play was fine in the finals (not great, but fine). The lacking thing was raw production, which is heavily reliant on what the guys around you do. You yourself even ADD to this point by bringing up players McDavid has had to play with. You holding it against Crosby that Kunitz couldn't manage to score more than 1 goal all playoff run is about as valid as someone expecting McDavid to produce with Lucic on his wing and blaming him when he's not scoring 2 points per game with Lucic flubbing his passes.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

i guess we just sweep crosby's golden goal under the rug then?

The fact is McDavid outside of Draisaitl has had very little help in his career. Last year was the first time he even got a tiny bit of run support and really probably you can thank Anna Kane for that more than anything.

How old is Letang now? 90 years old? If you put him on the Oilers even today, that's probably the best d-man McDavid has ever had in his career.

You gonna complain about Kunitz? Hey try Lucic post 2017 as your franchise winger for multiple years and that being your GM's big ticket move that you sold your (at the time) 2nd best player for (lulz). Watching him stick handle these days is just sad.

Crosby from basically his 2nd year onwards when he has played has always had solid teams around him, you could always pick up the roster to start a season or completed by the trade deadline and see a clear no.1 D, no.1 G (sometimes two no.1 Gs), usually a good solid 3C, some decent enough support wings, fun deadline adds like an Iginla here or a Hossa there, bottom 6ers, etc. I mean look at the 2017-18 Oilers that Chiarelli built. Woof.

The Oilers 3rd center is a #1 OA pick lol. And the Penguins have usually not had "decent enough" support wings. They had league-worst wingers for most of his career until Guentzel joined when Crosby was nearly 30. He played 4 regular season games and a playoffs with Hossa. Otherwise their wingers have been bottom-6 players, undrafted guys, and washed up vets.

You didn't even address my point. Which is you're defending McDavid's lack of playoff success as "one person can't do it all" while saying Crosby's 2009 finals was poor because of his lack of production, ignoring the fact that he can't exactly make Kunitz and Guerin score goals.

My point is Crosby's overall play was fine in the finals (not great, but fine). The lacking thing was raw production, which is heavily reliant on what the guys around you do. You yourself even ADD to this point by bringing up players McDavid has had to play with. You holding it against Crosby that Kunitz couldn't manage to score more than 1 goal all playoff run is about as valid as someone expecting McDavid to produce with Lucic on his wing and blaming him when he's not scoring 2 points per game with Lucic flubbing his passes.

Kunitz was on a career worst 1 goal in 40 games drought. Yet the Penguins still managed to win

 

[Soundwave]

The Oilers 3rd center is a #1 OA pick lol. And the Penguins have usually not had "decent enough" support wings. They had league-worst wingers for most of his career until Guentzel joined when Crosby was nearly 30. He played 4 regular season games and a playoffs with Hossa. Otherwise their wingers have been bottom-6 players, undrafted guys, and washed up vets.


Kunitz was on a career worst 1 goal in 40 games drought. Yet the Penguins still managed to win

Yeah but RNH and Draisaitl were already on the Oilers even before they won McLottery, Crosby had Malkin and Staal in kind of a similar circumstance. McDavid did have Hall and that should have been a point for him but then the moron GM trades him for a no.3/4 D-Man.

If you actually look at the two teams, the Penguins front office has done waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to give Crosby help. McDavid is in his 7th year and the Oilers have never spent one single 1st rounder yet (hopefully this has got to change this year). But look at these trade deadline/in-season adds

McDavid's Management:

2016 big move - Adam Larsson for Taylor Hall (lol)
2017 trade deadline add - David Desharnais to played 4 line center
2020 trade deadline add - Andreas Athansiou + Ennis
2021 deadline add - Kulikov for a 4th round pick
2022 deadline add - Kulak for a 3rd round pick


Crosby's Management (I'm not a Pens fan so there probably are more than this, these are just what I can recall):

2008 - Marian Hossa - trade deadline 2008
2009 - Bill Guerin + Chris Kunitz
2011 - James Neal
2013 - Jarome Iginla
2015 - David Perron
2015 - Phil Kessel
2020 - Kapanen
2020 - Zucker
2021 - Rickard Rakell

Brett Kulak is the best player the Oilers have added at the trade deadline in McDavid's career to give him help. Until Holland last year finally added Kane and Hyman as UFAs basically, the best winger the Oilers an Oilers GM had actually added to the team was probably Patrick Maroon, a guy who is what like Tampa's 8th best forward if that? Think about that for a second.

They fluked into Evander Kane last year only because Kane's wife went off the rails, I don't think that happens if she doesn't lose it on her social media.

And yes the Penguins won in 2009 ... because Malkin and MAF were the two best players in the Stanley Cup Final by a fairly wide margin. McDavid probably does not have that luxury. Even the Pens blue line that year was better than people give it credit for, Gonchar, Orpik, Letang, Goligoski was a very strong top 4 at that time (this is before Orpik, Goligoski/Scuderi fell off some and Gonchar was still playing at a 60 point clip as he got healthy, Letang was breaking out as that year went along). I don't think McDavid has had a blue line that good behind him in his career nor a goalie who can elevate to super clutch levels in big games.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Yeah but RNH and Draisaitl were already on the Oilers even before they won McLottery, Crosby had Malkin and Staal in kind of a similar circumstance. McDavid did have Hall and that should have been a point for him but then the moron GM trades him for a no.3/4 D-Man.

If you actually look at the two teams, the Penguins front office has done waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to give Crosby help. McDavid is in his 7th year and the Oilers have never spent one single 1st rounder yet (hopefully this has got to change this year). But look at these trade deadline/in-season adds

McDavid's Management:

2016 big move - Adam Larsson for Taylor Hall (lol)
2017 trade deadline add - David Desharnais to played 4 line center
2020 trade deadline add - Andreas Athansiou + Ennis
2021 deadline add - Kulikov for a 4th round pick
2022 deadline add - Kulak for a 3rd round pick


Crosby's Management (I'm not a Pens fan so there probably are more than this, these are just what I can recall):

2008 - Marian Hossa - trade deadline 2008
2009 - Bill Guerin + Chris Kunitz
2011 - James Neal
2013 - Jarome Iginla
2015 - David Perron
2015 - Phil Kessel
2020 - Kapanen
2020 - Zucker
2021 - Rickard Rakell

Brett Kulak is the best player the Oilers have added at the trade deadline in McDavid's career to give him help. Until Holland last year finally added Kane and Hyman as UFAs basically, the best winger the Oilers an Oilers GM had actually added to the team was probably Patrick Maroon, a guy who is what like Tampa's 8th best forward if that? Think about that for a second.

They fluked into Evander Kane last year only because Kane's wife went off the rails, I don't think that happens if she doesn't lose it on her social media.

And yes the Penguins won in 2009 ... because Malkin and MAF were the two best players in the Stanley Cup Final by a fairly wide margin. McDavid probably does not have that luxury. Even the Pens blue line that year was better than people give it credit for, Gonchar, Orpik, Letang, Goligoski was a very strong top 4 at that time (this is before Orpik, Goligoski/Scuderi fell off some and Gonchar was still playing at a 60 point clip as he got healthy, Letang was breaking out as that year went along). I don't think McDavid has had a blue line that good behind him in his career nor a goalie who can elevate to super clutch levels in big games.

Ok, Mr. I-watch-every-SCF, how did Goligoski do against Detroit, since I recall he didn't play. Goligoski was a call-up as Gonchar missed 2/3 of the season. The defense was:
Orpik-Gonchar
Eaton-Letang
Gill-Scuderi

At least half of that defense had no offensive ability whatsoever, and I can't say it's an upgrade over last year's Oilers with a crippled Gonchar. But the players bought into the system. And again, Fleury was not incredible in the SCF. He made a couple big saves but his team protected him when they needed to.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

They are also just different strategies to building a team. I definitely wish the Penguins hadn't traded so many picks for declining players like Iginla or Ponikarovsky, Oilers have drafted/developed players better recently than the Penguins did from 06-11, but pretty much every team did

 

[Cup or Bust]

Crosby is a great player but he would not have any cups if he played for the Oilers either so I don't know how a person could fault McDavid for not being able to win a cup so far. Neither Gretzky or Lemieux would either on the rosters the Oilers have iced thus far. McDavid is in a similar situation as Lemieux in that his team was just awful the first 5-6 years of his career. This is the first season since McDavid came into the league where you can look at the roster and think they can potentially be a top team. To be a true challenger for the cup they will still need to do some work on their defense by the deadline as well.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

If McDavid keeps producing like he is now he'll end up with 5-6 Harts,8 art Ross trophy's, a rocket..etc.

Crosby can't compete with that...like now how he is behind Ovechkin with just one cup

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Needs a cup to be in that conversation