Speculation: If Leafs Brass view Nylander as a Winger

[Notsince67]

The difference there is that when Polak ices the puck, it's a continuation of his issues with moving the puck. When Nylander is not doing what he should in the scenario you described, that's an exception in his game as he is normally very good at making sure the puck gets out, and under control.

Don't get me wrong. Of course you can rag on them for both things. But one is an issue, and the other is an isolated event. They should not be treated the same.

As for his defensive flaws, I think the main argument is that you don't see them the same way when he's at center. I'd say he's better for us defensively at center than he is at wing, even with the increased workload. His biggest issue defensively is that he becomes passive and just watches the play, and that's when people sneak behind his back. I also don't like his development along the boards, where he went away from using his strengths in an attempt to play "good, simple hockey."

My observation as a forward: His problem defensively is in the execution of sagging zone coverage. He often moves into the back door as a weak side forward instead of the low slot. He is playing like a center. That in conjunction with the aggressive defensive fore-checking (Babcock system) eventually creates a jam up around the crease of leaf players, effectively giving an optional pass to someone sneaking up or limiting Freddie's vision on a shot.
It's almost as if Willy can't forget how to play center.
How many times has Willy picked up the puck at the goal line and skated out? As a forward, that shouldn't happen much (IMO)

 

[Sypher04]

Lol trust me the request was made and the fact that he had to be sent to Arizona to talk with The Mathews changed everything.

Time will tell us if I am correct but I feel that all the items ad up. Do you think Lou was on favour of us going to Arizona to appease the Mathews...hell no. So he is pushed out. And then Babcock is on his way to see them.

There was a major Rift between Leafs and the Mathews, when he was concussed Lou and company would not confirm it. Mathews came out and said he was concussed going against team policy and disclosing injury information.

His mother seen in the playoffs switch from wearing a Mathews Leaf Jeresey to a t shirt with Mathews face on it. Indicated to me she was upset about what was happening with Mathews. He was not on the ice in key situations etc. There was far more issues then a small disagreement between Mathews and Babcock.

We will see if I am reading this situation correctly.

Wow... Please tell me this post is a joke lol

 

[al secord]

Marner wont play regularly with Matthews outside of the powerplay.

And Marner will never be a center.

Trump will never be President.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Nylander took strong FO mainly only so that increased his odds of winning % by not taking all faceoffs including non his backhand side.

Then he took the majority in Ozone where its an advantage as well because the defensive team needs to put their sticks down first increasing the odds of the offensive zone team having a advantage of going 2nd. A new rule to increase goal scoring potentially by giving a FO advantage to the team in the Ozone for them to gain possession and create scoring chances and shots on net.

Willie shots right and Matthews shots left and so Babcock split their FO duties to put both youngsters in the position to succeed with strong side FO only.. If they were both C on different lines then they would need to take all FO for the line and winning % would drop.

That's very valuable information, thank you, but 650 faceoffs still suggests there's some development going on there.

Naturally, in the course of development, exposure would be sheltered, though. So the total is enough to suggest to me that he is being groomed for center.

 

[Sypher04]

Trump will never be President.

Easier to make these judgements when there are only a few decision makers and they have spoken directly about the things in past

 

[Nithoniniel]

Then he took the majority in Ozone

That's not correct. He took about 30 percent of draws in the offensive zone.

It's correct that they mainly took draws on their strong side though, and that has a pronounced effect on his faceoff percentage.

 

[diceman934]

Nylander took strong side FO mainly only so that increased his odds of winning % by not taking all faceoffs including none on his backhand side.

Then he took the majority in Ozone where its an advantage as well because the defensive team needs to put their sticks down first increasing the odds of the offensive zone team having a advantage of going 2nd. A new rule to increase goal scoring potentially by giving a FO advantage to the team in the Ozone for them to gain possession and create scoring chances and shots on net.

Willie shots right and Matthews shots left and so Babcock split their FO duties to put both youngsters in the position to succeed with strong side FO only.. If they were both C on different lines then they would need to take all FO for the line and winning % would drop.

Quoted for truth.

 

[ottomaddox]

Nylander is definitely being groomed at C.

To not believe this is foolish.

Hyman Matthews Johnsson
Marleau Kadri Marner
Brown Nylander Kapanen

Matthews anchors the top line, as he should be doing, is bumped to 20 or so a game...again as he should be, playing him less is a handicap. If you really want you can switch Johnsson for Marner, and we're still a great top nine

MKM is a good secondary scoring line with better D chops.

Willy holds down the third line, which is sheltered but goes against weaker pairings and lineups, still gets minutes. This is how he learns the game at the pro level.

Then we need a 4th line to play max 10 minutes a night.

Most of the time when you're being groomed for a position you actually play that position.

When Kadri got suspended in the playoffs that would have been the best time to play Nylander at C. What would TOR have to lose by starting Nylander at C? Why did they play Dominic Moore? You'd think Nylander could supplant someone. You would think that Nylander would play actual center if he was a center.

 

[Menzinger]

Most of the time when you're being groomed for a position you actually play that position.

When Kadri got suspended in the playoffs that would have been the best time to play Nylander at C. What would TOR have to lose by starting Nylander at C? Why did they play Dominic Moore? You'd think Nylander could supplant someone. You would think that Nylander would play actual center if he was a center.

Though Babcock being a somewhat cautious guy opted to go with a vet who had too 6C experience - in the playoffs I can se the logic there especially from Babcocks POV.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Most of the time when you're being groomed for a position you actually play that position.

When Kadri got suspended in the playoffs that would have been the best time to play Nylander at C. What would TOR have to lose by starting Nylander at C? Why did they play Dominic Moore? You'd think Nylander could supplant someone. You would think that Nylander would play actual center if he was a center.

Who was Marner's center on his first playoff goal this year?

Why lie about stuff that's easily disproven? Same with the offensive zone faceoff excuses earlier.

 

[therealkoho]

The difference there is that when Polak ices the puck, it's a continuation of his issues with moving the puck. When Nylander is not doing what he should in the scenario you described, that's an exception in his game as he is normally very good at making sure the puck gets out, and under control.

Don't get me wrong. Of course you can rag on them for both things. But one is an issue, and the other is an isolated event. They should not be treated the same.

As for his defensive flaws, I think the main argument is that you don't see them the same way when he's at center. I'd say he's better for us defensively at center than he is at wing, even with the increased workload. His biggest issue defensively is that he becomes passive and just watches the play, and that's when people sneak behind his back. I also don't like his development along the boards, where he went away from using his strengths in an attempt to play "good, simple hockey."

there was a chart put up in around January I think, showing Leafs icings, that chart showed that Polak wasn't in the top 8 or so of Leafs icers...icing the puck isn't a problem for him

 

[therealkoho]

That's very valuable information, thank you, but 650 faceoffs still suggests there's some development going on there.

Naturally, in the course of development, exposure would be sheltered, though. So the total is enough to suggest to me that he is being groomed for center.

a valuable tool when figuring out FO's
Toronto Maple Leafs- Face-off stats - 2017 - Puckbase

 

[therealkoho]

https://www.tsn.ca/an-icing-analysis-of-the-maple-leafs-1.971774

also looking at his GA per 60 which is 2.4 and ranks 9th on the team isn't all that shabby

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Why separate him and Matthews? Both of there p/60 go down dramatically when not playing with each other.

 

[Nithoniniel]

there was a chart put up in around January I think, showing Leafs icings, that chart showed that Polak wasn't in the top 8 or so of Leafs icers...icing the puck isn't a problem for him

I'm not sure if that's enough of a tool though. Let's compare him and Gardiner:

Gardiner makes a ton of outlet passes, creates a whole lot of transitions because of it, but a downside is that he does some icings at times.
Polak has a much lower amount of outlet passes, that generally doesn't create controlled transitions, but he is still icing it at the same rate.

 

[ottomaddox]

Who was Marner's center on his first playoff goal this year?

Why lie about stuff that's easily disproven? Same with the offensive zone faceoff excuses earlier.

I am not lying. I actually watched the playoffs. I know what the rosters were set at.

Stop lying to yourself.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I am not lying. I actually watched the playoffs. I know what the rosters were set at.

Stop lying to yourself.

Who was Marner's center on his first goal?

 

[ottomaddox]

Who was Marner's center on his first goal?

Your instinctive respect for minutiae has thus been hammered home, and has been gradually extended to all the affairs of your life. Your fan intensity for Nylander is second to none. That mole hill mountain that you have planted your flag on will no doubt impress Babcock as he reads this thread.

I cannot properly answer your question because nothing I post will suffice.

 

[Nineteen67]

I'll take the easy way out and say the common sense method...

1. Trade the 1st round pick + Kapanen/Brown for a RHD .

2. Sign a stop gap 3c short term so that we can see what we have in Aaltonen, Lindholm, Brooks.

The 3c ufa crop is much better than the RHD crop.

This is part of the pain of rebuilding. If management doesn’t know what they have, then why would you trade away assets now?

I wouldn’t be surprised to see this team come back to reality next year and be fighting for a playoff spot.

 

[therealkoho]

I'm not sure if that's enough of a tool though. Let's compare him and Gardiner:

Gardiner makes a ton of outlet passes, creates a whole lot of transitions because of it, but a downside is that he does some icings at times.
Polak has a much lower amount of outlet passes, that generally doesn't create controlled transitions, but he is still icing it at the same rate.

please show me a link that proves that statement

https://www.tsn.ca/five-marlies-who-have-helped-their-nhl-chances-in-calder-cup-final-run-1.1100850

there's a video on the link of Leafs Lunch, interviewing Travis Dermott, high praise for Roman Polak btw

 

[indigobuffalo]

Out of curiosity how do you go centre-heavy in a draft and develop those centremen? You only have 4 C positions on the Marlies and 4 on the Growlers. And those are all occupied by current prospects.

 

[Nithoniniel]

please show me a link that proves that statement

https://www.tsn.ca/five-marlies-who-have-helped-their-nhl-chances-in-calder-cup-final-run-1.1100850

there's a video on the link of Leafs Lunch, interviewing Travis Dermott, high praise for Roman Polak btw

I'm sure there are. I'm also sure there's a limit to how much to glean from that. I don't think I've ever heard a player not give high praise for a teammate when asked about them specifically.

As for proving, their relative transition numbers can be seen in pretty much any variation of possession numbers. Outlet passing can be seen in the following graph:
Tableau Public

 

[therealkoho]

i've seen the site and I' think I have a pretty good handle on what it measures, Dermott had some pretty good progression when paired up with Polak who is tasked with steadying the ship in the defensive zone doing the heavy boardwork to break the cycle and being a top PK guy, Babcock eventually lossened up the harness on Dermott and let him start trying to get the puck with either a pass or his feet

Only Borgmann seems to have less icings per 60mins, Polak also seems to have the lowest number of fails per 60 as well...i dunno maybe it's me

his exit passes are low because of who he plays with, and usually behind the fourth line, his first pass is to his partner 90% of the time, the partner usually put's it up the boards so they can scrum the puck out, the icings are low because he's told not to take chances with the puck whereas Gardiner, Rielly and Zaitsev always have the green light. Polak is just a solid 3rd pairing guy you can trust, he makes errors like everyone else does in the league, he's just not the guy that LeaFland loves to assign all the ills of the world and everything that's supposedly wrong with the Leaf defense

 

[Nithoniniel]

You're missing the point. If all you do is easy passes to your partner or bashing it off the boards, you should not have many turnovers and you should not have many icings. If you consistently try much harder passes to spring zone exits or even create rush opportunities, the increased difficulty makes a turnover or icing much more likely.

It's like comparing two guys on their balancing act when one is walking on a board and the other on a thin rope.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm sure there are. I'm also sure there's a limit to how much to glean from that. I don't think I've ever heard a player not give high praise for a teammate when asked about them specifically.

As for proving, their relative transition numbers can be seen in pretty much any variation of possession numbers. Outlet passing can be seen in the following graph:
Tableau Public

And that highlights Ron Hainsey doesn't it.
1st. pairing defender.

Mind you Nylander is neither a 1st. pairing defender nor a 3rd. pairing defender.