Speculation: If Leafs Brass view Nylander as a Winger

GordieHoweHatTrick

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Most of the time when you're being groomed for a position you actually play that position.

When Kadri got suspended in the playoffs that would have been the best time to play Nylander at C. What would TOR have to lose by starting Nylander at C? Why did they play Dominic Moore? You'd think Nylander could supplant someone. You would think that Nylander would play actual center if he was a center.

Speaking of mole hills..

If he's being exposed to center in a sheltered fashion (strong side, o-zone, etc.,) then I'd imagine assigning him that role full-time, at the highest level of competition, where a faceoff win/loss could help determine when your team's season ends is the WORST time to play him there.

That's a matter of how someone thinks development should be achieved though; either by getting feet wet in order to build confidence, or throwing someone in the deep end and seeing if they're able to swim in order to build confidence.

But we know Babcock isn't a 'throw someone in the deep end and see if they can swim' type of coach.

It's also important not to confuse developing a player into a center with actually being a center. Nylander is not a center, but he is being developed for that position. Time will tell if he "supplants someone."
 
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lifelonghockeyfan

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Though Babcock being a somewhat cautious guy opted to go with a vet who had too 6C experience - in the playoffs I can se the logic there especially from Babcocks POV.

I'll never understand Babcock and some of his line matchups. It might have cost the Leafs game seven when he didn't have a centre on the ice when Marleau lost the draw to Krejeci and Kruk scored the tying goal.
My thought about the Matthews/Babcock isn't so much that Matthews wants Marner as a winger, but Matthews and maybe others have lost faith in Babcock as coach during the game. Oh, by the way, me too, I think Babcock is so set in his ways (which aren't THAT successful) that he has failed the Leafs.
Matthews may drawn the line with Leaf management is his post season interview. "I'm gone as a UFA as soon as possible if Babcock is still Leaf coach."
 

Jeffrey Pedler

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Keep him as a winger and find a 3rd line centre in free agency. Use one of the Marlies as a 4th line centre.
 

ottomaddox

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Speaking of mole hills..

If he's being exposed to center in a sheltered fashion (strong side, o-zone, etc.,) then I'd imagine assigning him that role full-time, at the highest level of competition, where a faceoff win/loss could help determine when your team's season ends is the WORST time to play him there.

That's a matter of how someone thinks development should be achieved though; either by getting feet wet in order to build confidence, or throwing someone in the deep end and seeing if they're able to swim in order to build confidence.

But we know Babcock isn't a 'throw someone in the deep end and see if they can swim' type of coach.

It's also important not to confuse developing a player into a center with actually being a center. Nylander is not a center, but he is being developed for that position. Time will tell if he "supplants someone."

Oh nice. Yeah I noticed Babcock has been doing that with Matthews. So far so good as a winger.

:help:
 

TheGoldenJet

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Though Babcock being a somewhat cautious guy opted to go with a vet who had too 6C experience - in the playoffs I can se the logic there especially from Babcocks POV.

Yes, definitely a good explanation for what happened in the playoffs. I think there is a chance Nylander ends up at Center in Toronto. Whether or not that’s the case will be seen in time. Question remains, what to do if he does not become a Center? (And if Marner remains on the wing, too.)
 

Rielly4

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Its as if no one here has watched Nylander play outside of the NHL. WJC? SHL? AHL? He was a C at all levels and he was able to absolutely drive his lines offense with immense speed skill and creativity up the middle. When hes on the wall he gets trapped a lot and is force to dump and engage more in physical play. When he is in the middle he is more free in the open ice to skate the puck and make plays. He will need to work on his defensive game but thats all part of development. Matthews and Kadri will be here longterm so he will be sheltered for a long time. Nylander Kapanen will be a terrific duo.
 

ottomaddox

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I see a major dilemma next season. Who is going to play center for us next season while Matthews, Nylander, and Marner are being groomed?

I suppose we could double shift Marleau and Kadri:

Leivo Marleau Marner
Matthews Kadri Kapanen
Johnsson Aaltonen Nylander
Kadri Marleau Brown

After next season

Marleau Marner Kapanen
Leivo Nylander Brown
Hyman Kadri Johnsson
Grundstrom Matthews UFA

:sarcasm:
 

moon111

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The difference there is that when Polak ices the puck, it's a continuation of his issues with moving the puck. When Nylander is not doing what he should in the scenario you described, that's an exception in his game as he is normally very good at making sure the puck gets out, and under control.

Don't get me wrong. Of course you can rag on them for both things. But one is an issue, and the other is an isolated event. They should not be treated the same.

As for his defensive flaws, I think the main argument is that you don't see them the same way when he's at center. I'd say he's better for us defensively at center than he is at wing, even with the increased workload. His biggest issue defensively is that he becomes passive and just watches the play, and that's when people sneak behind his back. I also don't like his development along the boards, where he went away from using his strengths in an attempt to play "good, simple hockey."

The problem is, it's not an isolated event. You watch him do that type of thing against Washington in the playoffs, and next year, he's still at it. Although he might actually work better at
center, as he won't be asked to work the boards, something he did advance at, going from Inge Hammarstrom, to realizing he doesn't have to pay for his own hockey sticks. It would be real
interesting seeing Babcock's choice of wingers as I don't think he likes gambling too much.
 

613Leafer

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Can someone please explain to me the sudden appearance of Par Lindholm on our roster?

Undrafted UFA signing out of the Swedish league. He was 4th in league scoring this past year, 52.31% on the faceoff dot, and is described as a smart two-way player.

Hard to say how he'll perform in the NHL though. Forwards we've brought over from Europe in the past have often not worked out (e.g. Wallin, Kontiola, etc). I think most of us are just hoping he can fill a 4th line role adequately, so we don't have to keep wasting 2nd round picks on bandaid solutions (e.g. Boyle & Plekanec).
 

LeafFever

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Is using him as a 3rd line D really the smartest way to develop him? He's got fantastic offensive skills.
 

Nithoniniel

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Is using him as a 3rd line D really the smartest way to develop him? He's got fantastic offensive skills.
I can see us running three lines with rather even minutes while the fourth line gets few in comparison. Playing him on the third line would allow him to invoke havoc with those offensive skills you mentioned against depth lines. If we can get the depth working well enough to build three strong lines, it could be quite the weapon for us.
 

Mess

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I can see us running three lines with rather even minutes while the fourth line gets few in comparison. Playing him on the third line would allow him to invoke havoc with those offensive skills you mentioned against depth lines. If we can get the depth working well enough to build three strong lines, it could be quite the weapon for us.

Isn't that what the Leafs had this past year with the JVR -- Bozak -- Marner/Brown 3rd line ?

If Nylander repalces Bozak then who replaces JVR, Kapanen or Johnsson ?

Moving Nylander to the #3c spot and in a sheltered role against easier QofC and limited usage game score dictating does seem like an option Babcock might deploy this year, in part because of the gapping hole at C in the organization with the departure of Bozak and no internal help, other than unproven NHL talent.
 
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therealkoho

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You're missing the point. If all you do is easy passes to your partner or bashing it off the boards, you should not have many turnovers and you should not have many icings. If you consistently try much harder passes to spring zone exits or even create rush opportunities, the increased difficulty makes a turnover or icing much more likely.

It's like comparing two guys on their balancing act when one is walking on a board and the other on a thin rope.

Polak had 32 TO's in 54 games, extrapolated to 82 games means he would have had 48 which is just over a half turnover per game which ranks him 6th or 7th of Leafs Dmen, exactly where he should be...whachoo talkin about willis?

the argument here is whether he's as bad as everyone makes him out to be, which is just media driven narrative that LeaFland has taken to heart and run with all year.

why is this important to a thread on Nylander as viewed by the Leafs brass

the majority view here is that Nylander is a Centre in a wingers clothing, which he is not, he doesn't have the game of a centre, he has the wheels, he has the smarts, but he doesn't have the type of game that translates to being a successful centre in the NHL,

he really doesn't have any real physicality to his game nor has he exhibited any, I don't see him developing the requisite amount of nastiness nor grit to win night after night in the circle, to win puck battles along the boards and all the other little intangibles. Matthews does, Kadri does, even Bozak at times exhibits some nasty and delivers some big checks.

He is an above average winger, who may turn into an elite winger, I don't get why everyone thinks this guy should be anything else then that. Montreal has tried to go down that path with guys who's games are not suited for the position, have you ever wondered why JvR never played centre at the NHL level but had been drafted as one and 3rd overall no less?
 
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therealkoho

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Speaking of mole hills..

If he's being exposed to center in a sheltered fashion (strong side, o-zone, etc.,) then I'd imagine assigning him that role full-time, at the highest level of competition, where a faceoff win/loss could help determine when your team's season ends is the WORST time to play him there.

That's a matter of how someone thinks development should be achieved though; either by getting feet wet in order to build confidence, or throwing someone in the deep end and seeing if they're able to swim in order to build confidence.

But we know Babcock isn't a 'throw someone in the deep end and see if they can swim' type of coach.

It's also important not to confuse developing a player into a center with actually being a center. Nylander is not a center, but he is being developed for that position. Time will tell if he "supplants someone."

I really don't think he's being groomed, when he takes those face-offs he doesn't stay at the centres position he and Matthews switch right away .... and I do agree that he would get eaten alive by most of the #2's and some of the #3's in the east, he wouldn't stand a chance against any of the #1's
 
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Notsince67

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Isn't that what the Leafs had this past year with the JVR -- Bozak -- Marner/Brown 3rd line ?

If Nylander repalces Bozak then who replaces JVR, Kapanen or Johnsson ?

Moving Nylander to the #3c spot and in a sheltered role against easier QofC and limited usage game score dictating does seem like an option Babcock might deploy this year, in part because of the gapping hole at C in the organization with the departure of Bozak and not internal help, other than unproven NHL talent.
I understand your point but the leafs need to spend some time anyway fixing gaps. They could certainly afford to win less in the season to experiment a bit. If Willy becomes a better C that a W, wouldn't it be worth it, as long as they make the playoffs? They could also try Marner on Matthews line for that matter. I see no harm in trying it out for 40 games or so. Maybe Nylander moves to line #2 as C or back to #1 as a W if it doesn't work out.
 

Nithoniniel

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hachoo talkin about willis?
It was a general statement that if you play simple, you buy less turnovers and icings for less effective plays. I didn't mean to imply that turnovers are a problem with Polak.

(It most certainly is for Hainsey though)

the argument here is whether he's as bad as everyone makes him out to be
Yeah I figured that after my last post, and I actually agree with you. Polak gets way too much crap. He's a limited player for sure, but his results when he plays normal third pairing numbers have not been that bad. Abysmal puck moving, but that's not his role.

the majority view here is that Nylander is a Centre in a wingers clothing, which he is not, he doesn't have the game of a centre, he has the wheels, he has the smarts, but he doesn't have the type of game that translates to being a successful centre in the NHL,
He doesn't have the type of game that translates to being a successful center, despite actually having played center in this league with good results? All that's been lacking is high-end even strength production when he's moved to the middle, but that's not easy considering that he's mainly played with rather limited wingers.

I don't see him developing the requisite amount of nastiness
There are plenty of successful centers in this league without much nastiness to their game. The team that are two wins away from being Stanley Cup Champions have very little nastiness in their top two centers. It's not a requisite.

He is an above average winger
The guy puts up top 40 even strength points in the whole league while producing near-elite individual results in transition and playmaking, and you call him above average?

Well it's technically true, I guess. He is above the average. Far above.

Montreal has tried to go down that path with guys who's games are not suited for the position
Yeah, and these guys saw an immediate drop off in their performance as they switched to the position they are not suited for. That hasn't been the case for Nylander. On the contrary, most underlying individual metrics have him actually improving when he moves to the middle. Sure the production isn't as good. That might be because he changes his most frequent linemate from superstar Matthews to 28 point Brown.

have you ever wondered why JvR never played centre at the NHL level but had been drafted as one and 3rd overall no less?
There are tons of prospects who play center and then immediately turn into wingers when they reach the professional leagues. A large part of the wingers in NHL followed that route. Nylander on the other hand played center in SHL, played center in AHL, and has played about 40 games as center in the NHL in his first 2½ seasons coming into his 22-year season. There's no similarity there.
 

mapleleaf979

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Nylander should start the year as the 3c, give him 40 games or so to get a good look. They need to see if he can be consistent on his own. He needs two hard working linemates to hopefully force him into working on there level. His potential is insane, at this point he seems content leaving some of his ceiling on the table. He literally skates at 70% speed some nights and u scratch your head. Leafs are loaded with hard working players. Grundstrom, Kapanen, Johnnson, Brown as potential wingers all have good motors, can balance out that line offensively and defensively. He can easily push Kadri down to the 3c next year if he wants too.
 

Rielly4

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Isn't that what the Leafs had this past year with the JVR -- Bozak -- Marner/Brown 3rd line ?

If Nylander repalces Bozak then who replaces JVR, Kapanen or Johnsson ?

Moving Nylander to the #3c spot and in a sheltered role against easier QofC and limited usage game score dictating does seem like an option Babcock might deploy this year, in part because of the gapping hole at C in the organization with the departure of Bozak and no internal help, other than unproven NHL talent.
JVR and Bozak are terrible 5 on 5.

Johnsson-Nylander-Kapanen is not even comparable to JVR-Bozak-Brown 5 on 5. They will actually be able to forecheck and make plays.
 

therealkoho

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JVR and Bozak are terrible 5 on 5.

Johnsson-Nylander-Kapanen is not even comparable to JVR-Bozak-Brown 5 on 5. They will actually be able to forecheck and make plays.
hyberbole
He doesn't have the type of game that translates to being a successful center, despite actually having played center in this league with good results? All that's been lacking is high-end even strength production when he's moved to the middle, but that's not easy considering that he's mainly played with rather limited wingers.


There are plenty of successful centers in this league without much nastiness to their game. The team that are two wins away from being Stanley Cup Champions have very little nastiness in their top two centers. It's not a requisite.

Nik Backstrom has a lot of nastiness and is a relentless forechecker, he creates room for himself not only because of his elite skating and skill level, but because he established his level of nasty early in his career, the guy possesses a very sharp stick. he's willing to work through traffic and retain command of the puck, and he wins board battles with regularity

Kuznetsov makes a lot of room for himself, just by his size alone and his tenacity in puck battles, he's as strong as most Dmen in the league, his bouts of inconsistency are what keeps him of being thought of as a Barkov type

Nylander doesn't have those same qualities, he rarely moves the puck through traffic and he really doesn't get engaged along the boards with any regularity. He's not an overly powerful guy and mostly finds his success with finesse


Yeah, and these guys saw an immediate drop off in their performance as they switched to the position they are not suited for. That hasn't been the case for Nylander. On the contrary, most underlying individual metrics have him actually improving when he moves to the middle. Sure the production isn't as good. That might be because he changes his most frequent linemate from superstar Matthews to 28 point Brown.

There are tons of prospects who play center and then immediately turn into wingers when they reach the professional leagues. A large part of the wingers in NHL followed that route. Nylander on the other hand played center in SHL, played center in AHL, and has played about 40 games as center in the NHL in his first 2½ seasons coming into his 22-year season. There's no similarity there.

you may denigrate Connor Brown all you like, but Browns efficiency with Matthews rivals that of Nylanders and the reason why he's Babcocks guy when Willie goes though those periods when he doesn't seem interested in getting fully engaged and end's up in a slump.

How much centre did he actually play in the Sve-1?

his first year his father mostly played the centres role over the course of the 18 games William started w/Rogle

his second year he is credited with starting 21 games, how many of those was he a de-facto centre? I'm not talking about games he may have taken FO's in. I'm talking about the guy driving a line

Even in the WC where he won an MVP award he wasn't a full time centre.

In all seriousness, I have never seen him as a full time NHL centre, I don't think the Leafs brass does either, but their still in the experiment stage with him. He just has too many bouts of inconsistent play. He has trouble maintaining focus in the defensive zone especially when he doesn't have the puck is a knock that has followed him around his whole career. When he is absolutely engaged he could be considered to be in the above average class of NHL wingers, can you imagine him giving the Leafs the type of A category of effort and determination Pasta gives the B's every night, or Kucherov, Hall, or the buzz saw they call Marchand, Gaudreau, Panarin, Rantanen and the list goes on quite a way's before you get to Willie

would willie even be the best centre in Montreal?, nope but he would possibly be their best winger
 
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Nithoniniel

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Nik Backstrom has a lot of nastiness
You might just be the only one who has ever said that about Bäckström. And saying that Kuznetsov is some consistency away from a selke-level center like Barkov seem pretty absurd. I can't say that I agree with anything you said there.

you may denigrate Connor Brown all you like, but Browns efficiency with Matthews rivals that of Nylanders and the reason why he's Babcocks guy when Willie goes though those periods when he doesn't seem interested in getting fully engaged and end's up in a slump.
When Matthews has had Brown on his wing instead of Nylander, his production has dropped off considerably, and his underlying metrics even more. What you said here goes against pretty much every measurement we have of what happens on the ice.

How much centre did he actually play in the Sve-1?
He played center almost exclusively in Sweden, except that short time with his father that you mentioned.

And he was a center at the WC until Bäckström came over. If anyone who gets pushed to the wing by Bäckström isn't a center, we don't have a whole lot of them.

When he is absolutely engaged he could be considered to be in the above average class of NHL wingers
Jeez. When he is absolutely engaged he could be considered to be something that his on-ice results suggest he has already far surpassed?

What's next? When Matthews has a good day, he's a decent top line center?

would willie even be the best centre in Montreal?, nope but he would possibly be their best winger
He would be their best center by far. It's ignorant on two fronts to suggest otherwise. Nobody who knows how the Montreal situation is would claim something like this. Nobody who actually is educated on the results Nylander has got as a center would claim something like this.
 

saltming

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He avoids plays where he is going to get hit and to the point of not going to the contract area.

Lets leave hall of Fame hockey players out of this discussion as It fails to make your point as Lefleur got to pucks to make plays all the time. He never turned to center of ice to avoid checks like we see Willy do.

Every player does not do what Willy does why even bring that to the discussion when it simply is not true.

Notice I have never talked about throwing checks as the more serious issue is him avoiding going to a puck when he may take a big check not even if it may create a scoring chance or to get the puck out of our zone both key times in games.
But my point is that he does take hits to make plays. I see it all the time. Perhaps your bias is tainting your view?
I couldn't count how many times he gets stapled in the corner fighting for the puck behind the net.
And if you've never seen a player pull up when they know they are about to get nailed for a puck they won't get to, I really don't think you're watching hockey. It's called being smart
 

zeke

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He avoids plays where he is going to get hit and to the point of not going to the contract area.

Lets leave hall of Fame hockey players out of this discussion as It fails to make your point as Lefleur got to pucks to make plays all the time. He never turned to center of ice to avoid checks like we see Willy do.

Every player does not do what Willy does why even bring that to the discussion when it simply is not true.

Notice I have never talked about throwing checks as the more serious issue is him avoiding going to a puck when he may take a big check not even if it may create a scoring chance or to get the puck out of our zone both key times in games.

For the record, Willy went PPG as soon as he and Matthews were splitup.
 

Boutette

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I am simply fed up with posters like yourself and others stating that this was a 7 game issue and keep saying that he is in the same level as Marner when that is not true at all.

He has a serious flaw in his game and you and others choose to ignore or minimize it.

As for irrational it seems to me that the irrational people in these discussions are the ones who ignore clear information. The whole hockey world saw him pull the chute and he played like a frieghten child..ignoring that seems to be irrational and a rational person admits it.

Not constantly exaggerating a young players flaws as though they are portrayed as a net team negative and repeatedly insulting him as though if you say it enough times it will become true. That is irrational. The fact is that at his age Nylander has been an amazingly effective and valuable contributer to the leafs, could he improve, certainly, will he, likely as he's only about to turn 22. Is not being the player you demand he be cause for dumping him like a hot potato, absolutely not. Some of us are constantly amazed at some people myopically magnify his flaws to the point where they are taking every possible opportunity to suggest he be railroaded off the team by any means possible. And when pressed, you seem to be able to offer no argument how dumping him will make the leafs a better team.
 
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