If either Kucherov or MacKinnon win the Art Ross - they should definitely also win the hart trophy. Do you agree?

[bobholly39]

In my opinion - both players are having absolutely tremendous, and historic seasons. If someone had told any of you in the off-season both those players would be pacing for 140+ points, I don't think anyone would have believed it.

Colorado has been a stronger team overall, but both teams are now well positioned for playoffs, and both players have been an instrumental part in their team's successes.

The have both flip-flopped on scoring lead a few times in the last couple of months. As of this morning, Kucherov is ahead by only 1 point, but also has a few other advantages going for him (more games left, and especially much easier schedule with a lot of easy opponents).

I know many posters here in the past few months have said MacKinnon should get preferential treatment for hart because he's never won one and is "owed" one. Or because he's a center, which can be more valuable than a winger.

Flipside - a lot of posters have said Kucherov should get preferential treatment because he stands much taller as the best player on his team this year vs MacKinnon (who has Makar close, and arguably Rantanen too).

In my opinion - with only ~13-14 games to go - whichever one of those two players win the Art Ross should also win the Hart Trophy. Do you agree?

I would hate for politics or biases or other factors to determine the winner. They've both had amazing seasons, very comparable, and I think whichever of the 2 manages to win the Ross should be the differentiator at this point for winning the Hart.

Please post what you think - if you agree with this, or if you think either/or player should win the hart even if they lose the Ross. Feel free to share thoughts on McDavid or others too.

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[TatteredTornNFrayed]

I'm not big on individual awards, especially the politics of the voted awards. But I mean, they are different awards for a reason, right?

And the Hart is described as player judged to be most valuable to his team. Not just player with the greatest point differential than the 2nd most point getter on his team, which too often it seems too many people want to use as a definition.

And it can be argued for MacKinnon that it is his drive and will to win that dominates the culture of the team and makes nearly every player on the Avalanche better, not just the ones he's on the ice with at any particular time.

 

[Felidae]

Assuming the point gap stays negligible by the end of the season, the Hart trophy should go to the better player imo, regardless of who ends up winning the Art Ross.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm not big on individual awards, especially the politics of the voted awards. But I mean, they are different awards for a reason, right?

And the Hart is described as player judged to be most valuable to his team. Not just player with the greatest point differential than the 2nd most point getter on his team, which too often it seems too many people want to use as a definition.

And it can be argued for MacKinnon that it is his drive and will to win that dominates the culture of the team and makes nearly every player on the Avalanche better, not just the ones he's on the ice with at any particular time.

Oh man the mental gymnastics here are amazing. MacKinnon should win the Hart because he doesn't allow gluten during the season - you heard it here first.

 

[TatteredTornNFrayed]

Didn't say anything about diet macho man

 

[Voight]

Yes - not just because they scored the most points tho.

Kucherov for instance has been carrying the load for Tampa offensively. Hes nearly 43 points ahead of second place on his team and 51 ahead of third. Without him, Tampa probably isn't in a. playoff spot.

 

[HolyHagelin]

I kind of hate the Hart. It should not be an award for forwards, yet almost no goalies or defensemen win

 

[Buck Naked]

Makar is not really better than Hedman this season and Rantanen is not really that much better than Point. Both MacKinnon and Kucherov are doing a hell of a carry job this year. I'd say it's a wash in terms of support.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

The Hart is MacKinnon’s to lose if he hits 130+ points, regardless of the Ross.

He is a more complete player than Kucherov, and he is due.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

MacKinnon will win the Hart because 1) He's Canadian and 2) He's a center.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

What if Kuch wins the Ross but TB misses the playoffs?

 

[DFC]

What if Kuch wins the Ross but TB misses the playoffs?

The precedent is he doesnt get it in that case.

If TB gets in, Kucherov deserves it by the definition of the trophy. TB appears to be waking up right now, but for 60 games, he was carrying them on his back.

I do believe if this was a Canadian on a big market team, there wouldnt even be a question.

 

[Cup or Bust]

I think MacKinnon should win the Hart. Colorado has had awful forward depth in their top 6 this season, average goaltending, injury problems. Mackinnon is having an amazing season while Colorado is still one of the best teams in the league.

 

[Ben White]

Wouldn’t surprise me if Kucherov’s attitude during the all star weekend might affect some voters to not vote for him even if it shouldn’t

 

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

MacKinnon will win the Hart because 1) He's Canadian and 2) He's a center.

Adjusted Canadian-ness and scowly faces per 60 are important stats to the voters.

MacGinnon is legitimately the Aves MVP this season as he's carried Rantanen and Makar is sliding downhill.

But MVP of the league is another story.

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

There's still 13/14 games left.

I definitely disagree that who wins the AR is guaranteed to win it. There's a reason the league just doesn't hand the guy with the most pts the MVP too.

Let's see how the next weeks play out and then whoever deserves to win it, should win it. One could outscore the other by 10 pts and still not "deserve" it IMO. Let's see as a whole who has the best season.


As it stands, I would take MacKinnon and he has fewer pts. I think if everything stays the "same-ish" MacKinnon deserves to win it. Kucherov could easily take over the last 14 games and get it though. Tying the award to pts specifically is stupid

 

[Video Nasty]

I think most need to recognize that unless something catastrophic happens down the stretch, MacKinnon is winning the Hart.

He seemed to have healthy support at the halfway point and even more so at the three quarter mark.

He has that narrative where he’s been a multiple time runner up and finalist and it’s clear that voters want to right what is a perceived wrong (2018) with the first realistic chance they are given.

The difference here is that his case is also almost bulletproof. He was just leading the Art Ross before last night, will finish 3rd at absolute worst, his team is flirting with the best record in the conference, and again right or wrong, his other finalists have already won.

MacKinnon is winning the 2023-2024 Hart.

 

[Regal]

I think both are similarly valuable to their teams and that the arguments for Kucherov being way more valuable are poor. Point gap over 2nd is stupid. Kucherov has two strong ES linemates, and lots of PP weapons, and both players score a similar percentage of their team’s goals.

And the “Tampa wouldn’t make the playoffs without Kuch” argument is also centred around the stupid trope that all playoff teams are equal. Colorado is far ahead of Tampa in the standing and might win the division. That should also mean something. I’m also not convinced they’d definitely make the playoffs without MacKinnon considering they’re under 50% in GF% 5v5 without him on the ice. Tampa is much worse, but Kicherov brings them from 43% to 51% with him on the ice while MacKinnon brings the Avs from 49% to 61%.

I’d say Kucherov has a slight edge in relative value while MacKinnon is the bit better player and holds more intrinsic value. To me, the better player is more important unless there’s a big gap in relative value. If the point gap remains negligible then it should be MacKinnon, who is the better overall player imo, regardless of the Art Ross

 

[um]

I kind of hate the Hart. It should not be an award for forwards, yet almost no goalies or defensemen win

The best players usually play forwards. It starts when we're kids and we want to score goals.

Let me ask when the last time a non forward deserved the Hart? I got Price in 2015 and that's my only post lockout pick.

 

[Toby91ca]

The precedent is he doesnt get it in that case.

If TB gets in, Kucherov deserves it by the definition of the trophy. TB appears to be waking up right now, but for 60 games, he was carrying them on his back.

I do believe if this was a Canadian on a big market team, there wouldnt even be a question.

I don't have an issue with voting Kucherov for Hart, not my vote, but it's close, I'd have no issue. What I would disagree quite a bit though is the suggestion that if he was Canadian on big market team there wouldn't even be a question? How could that be so clear cut?

Both Mackinnon and Kucherov are around the same points, Kucherov share slightly higher % of team goals he's in on, but it's minor (49% vs. 45%)....it's an argument in Kucherov's favour, but not a generally strong one. MacKinnon is a center....it matters. I had going +/-, but MacKinnon is +29, best on his team, 45% better than #2 at +20. Kucherov is a respectable +3 based on some of the - stats his teammates have, but Hedman is +14.

To be clear, I'm not arguing it should easily be MacK either, simply saying that's my choice, I'm fine with Kucherov as well, but there's no way you could suggest it's him without question.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The hart race is over. Unless mack shits the bed the final 15 games. Even a ppg secures the hart. Mcdavid has never been truly jn the race

 

[Regal]

The best players usually play forwards. It starts when we're kids and we want to score goals.

Let me ask when the last time a non forward deserved the Hart? I got Price in 2015 and that's my only post lockout pick.

I don’t necessarily disagree, especially this year, though it is interesting that so many Conn Smythe winners are defensemen in comparison. Obviously that’s comparing defensemen and forwards usually on the same team rather than league wide, but if teams where their best player is a defenseman are winning that much, perhaps we’re underrating their value during the regular season, where we’re not necessarily watching as many games of each team and rely more on stats, and there’s more wide open games/blowout games for forwards to inflate their points.

 

[um]

I don’t necessarily disagree, especially this year, though it is interesting that so many Conn Smythe winners are defensemen in comparison. Obviously that’s comparing defensemen and forwards usually on the same team rather than league wide, but if teams where their best player is a defenseman are winning that much, perhaps we’re underrating their value during the regular season, where we’re not necessarily watching as many games of each team and rely more on stats, and there’s more wide open games/blowout games for forwards to inflate their points.

Playoffs are a different game. You can be a highly offensive team and succeed during the NHL regular season, only to get your ass kicked once the games really matter.

It is fun to imagine what the NHL would be like if they played more meaningful regular season games like the NFL.

 

[DFC]

I don't have an issue with voting Kucherov for Hart, not my vote, but it's close, I'd have no issue. What I would disagree quite a bit though is the suggestion that if he was Canadian on big market team there wouldn't even be a question? How could that be so clear cut?

Both Mackinnon and Kucherov are around the same points, Kucherov share slightly higher % of team goals he's in on, but it's minor (49% vs. 45%)....it's an argument in Kucherov's favour, but not a generally strong one. MacKinnon is a center....it matters. I had going +/-, but MacKinnon is +29, best on his team, 45% better than #2 at +20. Kucherov is a respectable +3 based on some of the - stats his teammates have, but Hedman is +14.

To be clear, I'm not arguing it should easily be MacK either, simply saying that's my choice, I'm fine with Kucherov as well, but there's no way you could suggest it's him without question.

Tampa has been a terrible team all year long with one shining exception (two, if you count Hagel). Some guys are starting to find their game right now, but for 60 games, it was just Kucherov. Not just the offense--the defense and goaltending was atrocious. Kucherov's scoring has been absolutely crucial in TB's hanging onto a playoff spot. They would not be close without him. Very likely a lottery team.

 

[HolyHagelin]

The best players usually play forwards. It starts when we're kids and we want to score goals.

Let me ask when the last time a non forward deserved the Hart? I got Price in 2015 and that's my only post lockout pick.

Alas, I no longer get to watch enough every year to truly know who was or was not robbed.

It certainly seems as though more goalies should have won over the years though, given their massively higher total events versus a skater