Post-Game Talk: Ice is fine, Wings not so much

[Dotter]

And even if we assume this position, Holland's team still is expensive and sucks.

A good, moneyball GM looking to make his boss cash would ice a more competitive team without the highest salary.

Do we really think Frans Neilsen is selling tickets and jerseys? Come on.

After Datsyuk left, what center was available that would give this team the best possible chance at winning?

Making the playoffs if indeed a very low bar lately. The longevity impressive, but the act itself any given year... Not so much.

Maybe it's not important to you, but ticket sales are great. And the casual fan seems to love spending their money on the team. Heck, I live in Nashville. The hardest to find and most expensive game to go to is against the Detroit Red Wings. The teams aren't even in the same conference, but for some reason, Nashville fans love to pay extra for those tickets compared to... say Wild, Stars, Blues or Jets. Teams in their conference.

This is more proof the Wings franchise living off past success. And ownership milking the cash cow.

 

[Syckle78]

directive proof, huh? That's like proving how high is up...

But I'll play. Here's proof.

Ken Holland still has a job despite all the hate he gets on random forums and blogs. I guess when he gets abruptly fired out of the blue, that would proof he's not following directions?

There's this guy named Randy Smith that was once the GM of the Detroit tigers. Randy Smith was god damn terrible and the tigers were once the worst team in baseball and set a record for most losses in a season. Randy Smith lasted 6 years in his job. In those 6 years it never occured to me that Illitch gave Smith a directive to be as horrible as possible because he wasn't fired. All this without the bebefit of having been part of four championship teams. The moral of the story is sometimes Illitch is too loyal his front office personnel and them being employed is proof of nothing.

 

[Syckle78]

Well, whatever. You don't make the playoffs for a quarter-century then decide one offseason to blow it all up. You keep driving the car until it's out of gas. What's ironic is if this team even played average this year they'd probably be in a comfortable playoff spot. Everyone on this team outside of maybe Green is having an awful year. This was the easiest year this team could make the playoffs and they fell flat.

You keep driving the car until it's out of gas? There's a reason cars have gas gauges and our proverbial gas light has been on for a few years now.

 

[Heaton]

And even if we assume this position, Holland's team still is expensive and sucks.

A good, moneyball GM looking to make his boss cash would ice a more competitive team without the highest salary.

Do we really think Frans Neilsen is selling tickets and jerseys? Come on.

Nope, and I agree that telling any other narrative other than Holland isn't doing his job as well anymore it's just shifting blame off of Holland for whatever reason. Holland didn't forget how to be a good GM, he just doesn't have the ammo anymore. Just like Babcock didn't become a worse head coach as the years went on, he just lost more and more of his talent. Let's be honest, Holland hasn't upgraded the roster since he signed Hossa in 2009, that's almost 10 years ago. He hasn't made an impact trade since 2002 and hasn't drafted a top pairing defenseman since 2001. Most other GMs would be fired at this point, but since Holland has a great resume, his leash is a lot longer than it should be.

This team will not starting the building process back to relevancy until Holland is moved and a GM without any ties to the old guard is brought. If Ryan Martin is the next GM, we're stuck in the same losing situation, just like when Babcock jr took over as coach.

 

[Bench]

directive proof, huh? That's like proving how high is up...

It is nothing like that.

You're using circumstantial evidence to make a claim. On top of that, people have poked significant holes in your evidence.

It's more akin to you saying the Eiffel Tower is taller than the Empire State Building because you ran some math based on scale using photos. So your metric is wrong from the ground up, and people are trying to tell you that, but you then counter with "follow the pictures" and a diversion about how you can't define how high air is.

 

[Syckle78]

And even if we assume this position, Holland's team still is expensive and sucks.

A good, moneyball GM looking to make his boss cash would ice a more competitive team without the highest salary.

Do we really think Frans Neilsen is selling tickets and jerseys? Come on.

I see a lot of post game fan traffic in my job. I can honestly say I haven't seen a single Nielsen jersey. What I have seen the most of by far are Larkin jerseys and a sprinkling of AA jerseys. Fans want exciting young players and hope or to be contending. Right now this team has little of the first and none of the latter two. That ultimately is going to hurt the bottom line longer term than a rebuild.

 

[Dotter]

There's this guy named Randy Smith that was once the GM of the Detroit tigers. Randy Smith was god damn terrible and the tigers were once the worst team in baseball and set a record for most losses in a season. Randy Smith lasted 6 years in his job. In those 6 years it never occured to me that Illitch gave Smith a directive to be as horrible as possible because he wasn't fired. All this without the bebefit of having been part of four championship teams. The moral of the story is sometimes Illitch is too loyal his front office personnel and them being employed is proof of nothing.

And then there is this title:
"Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski was fired without warning"

Looks like an ownership is not afraid to fire.

This past Saturday was August 2nd, just two days after the trade deadline passed. This is suspicious for two reasons. Either Illitch knew he was going to fire his GM, but let Dombrowski make franchise altering deals anyway, or that he didn't know until recently. It's difficult to know which is the case, but regardless, it's extremely worrying.

If it was the first scenario, then it implies that Illitch seemingly didn't have confidence in Avila to be able to run the trade deadline adequately; and wanted someone with experience to remain in charge until it was over. While that's not a bad strategy, it's also not the biggest boost of confidence for a man who was just promoted to VP of Baseball Operations, and GM. However it's the latter option that seems more likely, and that Illitch's decision was something that came about somewhat recently.

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2015/8/5/9101859/tigers-dombrowski-avila-illitch-fired-without-warning


Again more proof of a GM not following directions getting fired. This really speaks volumes that Ken Holland is, in fact, following directions to a "T". But I imagine you'll turn a blinds eye to the facts.

 

[Dotter]

It is nothing like that.

You're using circumstantial evidence to make a claim. On top of that, people have poked significant holes in your evidence.

actually, nobody has. There was one poster that had a link to back it up, and tried to poke holes, only to go full circle and prove my numbers were, in fact, 100% correct. Lol

But credit to this poster for taking the time out to try and poke holes. He was the only one that actually took time out to dig in to research instead of saying "how they feel" about it. Talking about "how your feelings" are about the matter is not "poking holes". It;s the complete opposite.

 

[Syckle78]

And then there is this title:
"Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski was fired without warning"

Looks like an ownership is not afraid to fire.


http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2015/8/5/9101859/tigers-dombrowski-avila-illitch-fired-without-warning


Again more proof of a GM not following directions getting fired. This really speaks volumes that Ken Holland is, in fact, following directions to a "T". But I imagine you'll turn a blinds eye to the facts.

Or it could just be proof that as has been speculated Illitch is now obsessed with that world series ring and has left Holland to his own devices as gm of the wings. The wings are being run now like the tigers of the 90s as the ugly step child while the tigers are getting all the love. I mean it could be coincidence that since Illitch stated he'd trade cups for a world series ring after 08 things have slowly gone downhill or maybe it's not.

 

[Dotter]

Or it could just be proof that as has been speculated Illitch is now obsessed with that world series ring and has left Holland to his own devices as gm of the wings. The wings are being run now like the tigers of the 90s as the ugly step child while the tigers are getting all the love. I mean it could be coincidence that since Illitch stated he'd trade cups for a world series ring after 08 things have slowly gone downhill or maybe it's not.

The Wings are being run like they are on auto-cruise and only want to rake in the money from past success. It's funny you think Mike Illitch and Co can't multi-task, though.

If Wings franchise were bleeding money with this roster, you bet your ass Mr. I is going to knock some heads around.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Agree to disagree, I guess. I think the difference between the best and worst coach in the NHL amounts to maybe 10 points in the standings, while the difference between the best and worst rosters amounts to 25-30 points.

Blashill definitely has some head-scratcher moves. But Babcock had some of those as well. And even if you say that Babcock is 100x the coach that Blashill is, how many more points did this roster have at this point 3 years ago? 2 years ago? The players simply aren't anywhere near as talented as they were 5-7 years ago.

21st of December 2 years ago, we were 17-8-9, 43 points. I don't know our exact position in the standings but I know we were among the top teams for most of the season.

Yes the difference between the best and worst roster is bigger than a coach, which is why Toronto got over 30 points less than Babcock did with Detroit the year before.But the difference between this roster and the one we had 2 years ago should not be 20+ points.

I feel like people here think a coach's #1 job is coming up with the line combinations. Blashill has certainly had some strange line combinations, but how much of a difference does that make? Yeaaaahh.. not much But how about the other 99.9% of a coach's job, you know, the part that actually matters? I'd take a Sheahan-Glendening-Miller 1st line if it meant the entire team didn't look completely clueless on the ice every second of every game.

As much as I think we should stay on this path this season, in hopes that Holland is forced to sell and we get a higher pick because there is no hope for this season and current roster foundation without some change, but as much as I hope it remains the same I'm almost chanting for a coaching change now just to shove it in your face when we still suck.

By all means do if that happens. At this point I'm just not quite ready to believe that our roster isn't capable of at least being competitive with a tired Arizona team or that a PP formation with Mantha-Zetterberg-Vanek-Nyquist-Green can't possibly be better than worst in the league.

 

[Retire91]

You don't go from making the playoffs for a quarter-century to automatic rebuild in one offseason. Takes time to shed contracts, older players, etc. This is just the beginning. To quote Babcock, there will be pain. But, this is what many around here wanted. Now you have to live with it.

Several of 'those contracts' were signed this offseaon, 4 or 5 seasons after the window closed.

 

[Bench]

actually, nobody has. There was one poster that had a link to back it up, and tried to poke holes, only to go full circle and prove my numbers were, in fact, 100% correct. Lol

But credit to this poster for taking the time out to try and poke holes. He was the only one that actually took time out to dig in to research instead of saying "how they feel" about it. Talking about "how your feelings" are about the matter is not "poking holes". It;s the complete opposite.

You're not getting it.

Your entire measurement criteria is wrong. You can't just Google average ticket prices and start making massive assumptions in revenue.

Of course when you make up your own data and metrics, I will admit, it's very difficult for someone to dispute it. You know, like how the Eiffel Tower is actually taller if you use my measurements from pictures. Starting with a flawed tool will yeild flawed results.

 

[Syckle78]

The Wings are being run like they are on auto-cruise and only want to rake in the money from past success. It's funny you think Mike Illitch and Co can't multi-task, though.

If Wings franchise were bleeding money with this roster, you bet your ass Mr. I is going to knock some heads around.

Really? Because the tigers were bleeding money for a good decade and no heads were knocked here nor there. Illitch cares about franchise valuation more than the year to year revenue. He's making money from the wings but his focus and focus of the family right now is clearly with the tigers. Out of all of Ilitches holdings the wings probably net the least on a year to year basis,besides the tigers who might be losing money with their giant payroll. So,why, would illitch give a directive to tarnish the wings brand by being an also ran mediocre team just to save a few dollars when long term getting the wings brand back at the top would make substantially more money? If this was all about money the wings would be agressive one way or another to get back to selling hockey moms window flags and hey hey hockeytown cds.

 

[Dotter]

You're not getting it.

Your entire measurement criteria is wrong. You can't just Google average ticket prices and start making massive assumptions in revenue.

Of course when you make up your own data and metrics, I will admit, it's very difficult for someone to dispute it. You know, like how the Eiffel Tower is actually taller if you use my measurements from pictures. Starting with a flawed tool will yeild flawed results.

It's not just that. It is everything as a whole.

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

Seriously though...

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"

Every action taken points to ownership wanting to keep the money train alive. Nothing suggest they are interested in tanking what-so-ever. Money is a huge motivation to "wait it out" and "see what happens" because they are not bleeding money. In fact, it is the complete opposite.

 

[aar000n]

Why dont the wings ever stand up for their players? Take their goalie out and send a message. You take our goalie out we take yours out. At that point it would be their back up goalie. So good luck going forward with your 3rd string goalie.

 

[Syckle78]

Why dont the wings ever stand up for their players? Take their goalie out and send a message. You take our goalie out we take yours out. At that point it would be their back up goalie. So good luck going forward with your 3rd string goalie.

Which player did you want to jump jensen? I'm confused.

 

[Retire91]

It's not just that. It is everything as a whole.

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

Seriously though...

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"

Every action taken points to ownership wanting to keep the money train alive. Nothing suggest they are interested in tanking what-so-ever. Money is a huge motivation to "wait it out" and "see what happens" because they are not bleeding money. In fact, it is the complete opposite.

It has to be this. Sports franchises are not always a profit center and they might just be enjoying the long term gains. Also the kids might not be as winning focused as they are money focused. Mike Illich was a business man at his core but he also hungered for being a champion taking risks and spending to get there. The kids have a lot to prove considering how this transition has starting out.

 

[Dotter]

Really? Because the tigers were bleeding money for a good decade and no heads were knocked here nor there. Illitch cares about franchise valuation more than the year to year revenue. He's making money from the wings but his focus and focus of the family right now is clearly with the tigers. Out of all of Ilitches holdings the wings probably net the least on a year to year basis,besides the tigers who might be losing money with their giant payroll. So,why, would illitch give a directive to tarnish the wings brand by being an also ran mediocre team just to save a few dollars when long term getting the wings brand back at the top would make substantially more money? If this was all about money the wings would be agressive one way or another to get back to selling hockey moms window flags and hey hey hockeytown cds.

When I say stuff like this, you call it "words". When you make baseless statements it's "clearly" facts. Interesting how that works

Fact: Franchise is making money
Fact: Playoff streak is a huge selling point to earning big money
Fact: Ken Holland still has a job
Fact: Club is making efforts to not purposely tank

How much you think Mike Illitch values money vs winning, and how much I think Mike Illitch values money vs winning is probably far apart. But I think you are completely wrong that Mike Illitch isn't paying attention and can't multi-task. I think he is very well aware of the situation and I think the situation is by his own direction.

And I think the billion dollar new arena proves he cares about the future of the club. But right now, he is focused on ROI while the cash cow is still flowing gold.

 

[Syckle78]

When I say stuff like this, you call it "words". When you make baseless statements it's "clearly" facts. Interesting how that works

Fact: Franchise is making money
Fact: Playoff streak is a huge selling point to earning big money
Fact: Ken Holland still has a job
Fact: Club is making efforts to not purposely tank

How much you think Mike Illitch values money vs winning, and how much I think Mike Illitch values money vs winning is probably far apart. But I think you are completely wrong that Mike Illitch isn't paying attention and can't multi-task. I think he is very well aware of the situation and I think the situation is by his own direction.

And I think the billion dollar new arena proves he cares about the future of the club. But right now, he is focused on ROI while the cash cow is still flowing gold.

Welp we'll agree to disagree. All I know is that I called this trajectory over 4 years ago and brought up the shift in focus and there being no pressure on Holland to compete. You believe that Holland is under some directive to be mediocre to get a couple home playoff games, I don't believe that to be true.

What we do agree on is the team is on cruise control and that's not working. Not sure what's worse longterm for the franchise your idea of what's going on or mine. Neither is bodes well wether it's a lack of focus or shift to being all about the bottom line and cups be damned.

 

[Dotter]

Welp we'll agree to disagree. All I know is that I called this trajectory over 4 years ago and brought up the shift in focus and there being no pressure on Holland to compete. You believe that Holland is under some directive to be mediocre to get a couple home playoff games, I don't believe that to be true.

What we do agree on is the team is on cruise control and that's not working. Not sure what's worse longterm for the franchise your idea of what's going on or mine. Neither is bodes well wether it's a lack of focus or shift to being all about the bottom line and cups be damned.

It's not about two playoff games. It's about the marketing of the playoff streak to casual fans. Like I said, DRWs are 1st or 2nd hardest tickets and most expensive tickets to get here in Nashville with Chicago being a close 2nd. And DRWs are an eastern team, but people here are more interested in DRWs. I would think it's like this in other cities.

Once Detroit announce they are tanking and spend to cap minimum, do you think casual fans around the states and Canada are going to line up to buy out these tickets anymore?

As for Mike not caring about the club, didn't he fly out to Romance Ryan Suter? Didn't he meet with Mike Modano? Modano, the washed up guy everyone was up in arms that Ken Holland signed.... Here's the link

Boy, for an owner who isn't part of the team sure is onboard with Ken Holland signing past their prime guys.

Modano was probably more of publicity stunt to help sell tickets

What about Daniel Alfredsson?

Alfredsson, however, indicated that if he was healthy enough to play, he would return to the Detroit Red Wings in order to honor a commitment made to owner Mike Ilitch and general manager Ken Holland.

Modano and Alfie, if I remember correctly, were TWO players DRW fans condemned ken Holland for.

Yet lets act like Mike Illitch is not involved and wasn't romancing these guys and would even meet them at the airport with chocolate and flowers. LOL

Box of Chocolates = $5.99. Star players to help sell tickets = Priceless

 

[Syckle78]

I don't see your point. Am I supposed to be excited that he was part of signing the ghost of alfie and the corpse of modano?

 

[aar000n]

Which player did you want to jump jensen? I'm confused.

just plaster him into the boards. We have Kronwall he use to hit and losing him would be an addition,

 

[Dotter]

I don't see your point. Am I supposed to be excited that he was part of signing the ghost of alfie and the corpse of modano?

I think the point is two fold.

1. He is not absent like you said.
2. He wants to keep the streak alive.

If ownership proves they want to keep the steak alive, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the GM to take the resources given and do what you can (without mortgaging the future) to keep the streak alive?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Dotter, have you seriously missed my post regarding revenue twice, or are you just choosing to ignore it for some reason?