Post-Game Talk: Ice is fine, Wings not so much

[Konnan511]

Unless you've got some extensive data and research to back it up, the playoff streak is a huge selling point to earning big money is not a fact.

To be fair, we are "selling out" every home game. If you make the playoffs, that would mean more money for those home playoff games.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

image upload no limit

he's a terrible coach .. Babcock could do way more with this roster.. but whatever everyone on this forum wanted this guy.. I knew he would fail

Except that Mike Babcock didn't want to coach the Wings. I don't know why that is so hard for people to understand. Perhaps he didn't want to coach them because he knew they were on the verge of becoming a dumpster fire.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

To be fair, we are "selling out" every home game. If you make the playoffs, that would mean more money for those home playoff games.

I don't disagree, but that wasn't the point of the post I was quoting. Dotter mocked someone for making baseless statements and calling them facts. Then did the exact same thing.

It's likely the playoff streak could lead to selling more tickets. Maybe it is a "huge selling point to earning big money." Without solid data to back it up, that's still not a fact. It's an opinion.

Who knows, maybe have a first overall draft pick on the team, like a young Steve Yzerman or a Connor McDavid could sell just as many tickets. Maybe it sells more merchandise. Maybe it gives an identity to a team that hasn't really had one since Lidstrom retired.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Except that Mike Babcock didn't want to coach the Wings. I don't know why that is so hard for people to understand. Perhaps he didn't want to coach them because he knew they were on the verge of becoming a dumpster fire.

Agreed. I don't think it was all about the money.

After 10 years I'm guessing his message did get old. And he even said in so many words that there is no Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the pipeline for this team right now.

I don't know that he thought the Wings would be a dumpster fire. But he might have had a pretty good inkling that they'd be trending downward.

Babcock is a better coach than Blashill. But if he were still here he might squeak this team into the playoffs again and only prolong the painful decay of this franchise.

 

[Dotter]

Okay, so you aren't even addressing what I'm talking about. Great.

I have several time. You just choose to ignore as you apparantly want some sort of magical answer. 6%, hoss. That'S basically a cheap tax. WHOOPIE

the NHL CBA includes a base revenue sharing program, which allocates 6% of total league revenue, primarily away from the top 10 revenue-generating teams, to financially struggling teams. The redistribution is intended to distribute the cost of players’ salaries. These athletes only perform at their own arena half the time, and revenue sharing aims to ensure that all NHL franchises are capable of maintaining a payroll equivalent to a league target above the minimum salary floor, and can perform up to NHL standards away from their home rink.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

we're not selling out the building in the traditional sense as evidence form the 5000 plus empty seats at almost every home game but the opener.

Illitch himself is likely buying the seats to sustain the illusion of a sellout streak

 

[Run the Jewels]

if

Well shoot, at the rate the Lions are climbing, the Lions team will be worth more than Mike Illitch's net worth. I could see Red Wings (being an NHL team) peaking out at around $750 million in the next 7 to 10 years. But if Wings can keep the streak alive, I am sure they can earn that in ticket/concessions sales before the franchise worth peaks out at that level.

Buy some dog food with that.

The Red Wings will be worth well above $750 million within the next decade. Hell, they could even top 1 billion. There are currently 3 hockey franchises valued above a billion dollars and Chicago will likely hit that level the next time Forbes updates their list. Your quarter of a billion dollars in losses estimate was so obviously wrong. There isn't a single person who looked at what you were saying and agrees with you.

The cap floor is $54 million and the rent on JLA is $1 million. The Wings make $44 million or thereabouts in gate receipts and receive $1 billion in broadcasting rights from Fox Sports. Now that $1 billion is spread across three teams - Wings, Lions and Tigers - and is for a 10 year period. So if you average that out over 10 years and divide it into thirds that gives you another $33 million in revenue. The Wings also get revenue from radio but I couldn't find the terms for the radio deal.

So basically Mike Illitch has to spend $55 million to ice a hockey team and have an area for them to play in. He receives $77 million in ticket sales and broadcasting fees. Even if Red Wings ticket sales somehow drop to $30 million per year he can still go with a youth movement and hit the cap floor and still make money.

The only reason the Wings need to make the playoff to make money is because they are overpaying guys like Mule, Abby, Helm, Howard, et al to have the most expensive roster in the league. That makes sense when you are competing for Cups. It's dumb as hell when you have one of the 5-10 worst teams in the league. You also need to keep in mind we were lucky to make the playoffs last year, so this isn't a one year thing we can easily write off when Ken Holland starts selling hope this offseason.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I have several time. You just choose to ignore as you apparantly want some sort of magical answer. 6%, hoss. That'S basically a cheap tax. WHOOPIE

Please explain how you explaining what revenue sharing is addresses what I initially said.

I don't know, because maybe ticket sales aren't all it takes to determine how much money a business is actually making?

Hell, when you actually quoted me, the post you quoted mentioned revenue, not revenue SHARING.

Dotter, have you seriously missed my post regarding revenue twice, or are you just choosing to ignore it for some reason?

 

[jkutswings]

Please explain how you explaining what revenue sharing is addresses what I initially said.



Hell, when you actually quoted me, the post you quoted mentioned revenue, not revenue SHARING.

I think there might be a disconnect, where he's not even aware of what you're asking.

I read your comments, and I THINK you're saying, "There are several revenue streams that contribute to a franchise's income, over and above ticket sales and revenue sharing."

Is that indeed what you're saying?

 

[Dotter]

Please explain how you explaining what revenue sharing is addresses what I initially said.



Hell, when you actually quoted me, the post you quoted mentioned revenue, not revenue SHARING.

I guess I do not know exactly what you're looking for. I tried to address it several times but you keep rejecting it. I guess the NHL as a whole is a complete financial flop. Nobody makes money, everyone is doomed. NHL is designed to bankrupt the entire nation and will be the fall of all civilization as we know it. 3rd world, here we come.

Is that want you want to hear?

How I really feel? You're deflecting from what I have said and are trying to muddy the water away from my initial point. Trying conjure up monkey wrench scenarios to throw in fan.

And the several links I posted were NOT exclusively about REVENUE. It was REVENUE SHARING. Again, I am not sure why you refuse to click a link and read it?

I am taking time out of my day, researching hundreds of links to find the information available on the web to gather data on what teams earn in ticket/concession sales. Out of that we can piece together, along with other information about ownership, to see what Mike Illitch's true heart-of-heart motivation is. Is MIKE ILLITCH blind and doesn't care that "Ken Holland is running a country club" for the sake of KEN HOLLAND'S personal agenda? Or is MIKE ILLITCH behind the scenes telling KEN HOLLAND his expectations of what direction he wants to the club to go in this window? My evidence is pointing to MIKE ILLITCH is giving KEN HOLLAND clear and concise instructions; and KEN HOLLAND IS NOT RUNNING A COUNTRY CLUB, BUT RATHER FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS LIKE THE SUBORDINATE HE IS. Ownership is CHOOSING to keep the streak alive first and foremost.

ALL SIGNS point to the money being the motivation. If this was a murder case, the perpetrator would have done been found guilty based on the massive amounts of circumstantial evidence alone.

I do not know wtf you are trying to argue? Or are you just trying to muddy the waters, counselor?

 

[jkutswings]

On the contrary. Most modern sports franchises are printing presses for money. I believe the point is that, even if Detroit suddenly becomes a bottom feeder, Illitch will still be making money.

Now would he be making LESS money? Sure, probably. And he can prioritize that as he sees fit, to care more about the bottom line than about trying to win a championship. That's his right as the guy who signs the checks.

But it's the right of the fans to then label him as an owner who doesn't care about winning as much as making money, and act however they feel compelled, based on that identification.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The point I was making is ticket sales do not by themselves determine how much a business is making because there are other sources of revenue (merchandising, special events, other business endeavors related to the team) and other sources of costs which influence the bottom line of a business.

Your focus on ticket sales and the importance of those sales in the playoffs is reductionist. As if the current model is the only way for Mike Ilitch to improve his businesses and as if the current model is what we as fans can benefit from more than anything.

 

[Dotter]

On the contrary. Most modern sports franchises are printing presses for money. I believe the point is that, even if Detroit suddenly becomes a bottom feeder, Illitch will still be making money.

Now would he be making LESS money? Sure, probably. And he can prioritize that as he sees fit, to care more about the bottom line than about trying to win a championship. That's his right as the guy who signs the checks.

But it's the right of the fans to then label him as an owner who doesn't care about winning as much as making money, and act however they feel compelled, based on that identification.

Okay, now if that was his point, then he wasn't clear.

If that was his point, the links I posted said the revenue sharing isn't to line ownerships pockets with free cash and reward them for failing to sale tickets. No.

It is for player salaries to help bottom feeders ice a team. Not for owners to get free money. That seems to be his misconception in the matter. This isn't welfare in the traditional sense.

For example CHI ownership is helping Coyotes ice a team, so CHI fans can watch their team beat the crap out of the 'Yotes. It is beneficial to Chicago ownership that are 'yotes team CHI fans get to watch their team destroy. CHI ownership (and all teams making money) is just helping Yotes ice a hockey team, not line the owners with free money.

 

[Dotter]

The point I was making is ticket sales do not by themselves determine how much a business is making because there are other sources of revenue (merchandising, special events, other business endeavors related to the team) and other sources of costs which influence the bottom line of a business.

Your focus on ticket sales and the importance of those sales in the playoffs is reductionist. As if the current model is the only way for Mike Ilitch to improve his businesses and as if the current model is what we as fans can benefit from more than anything.

Oh jeez, why does everyone automatically assume that playoff sales is the main focus?

And I called it ticket/merch sales in all my main posts on the matter. That was to bottle it all up to save time and energy swaying away frm the initial point. Maybe I even wrote "etc..." to include the other stuff.

But again, that wasn't the main focus of the initial post. It's about ownership's motivation. Who's to blame, Mike Illitch for giving Ken Holland instruction, or Ken Holland for following through with said instructions?

At this point, I think it clear, without a doubt, that Mike Illitch has given Ken Holland clear and concise instructions, and KH is merely a subordinate following said instructions. Do you dispute that?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Oh jeez, why does everyone automatically assume that playoff sales is the main focus?

And I called it ticket/merch sales in all my main posts on the matter. That was to bottle it all up to save time and energy swaying away frm the initial point. Maybe I even wrote "etc..." to include the other stuff.

Playoff sales have been discussed as a positive to the current model.

But again, that wasn't the main focus of the initial thread. It's about ownership's motivation. Who's to blame, Mike Illitch for giving Ken Holland instruction, or Ken Holland for following through with said instructions.

I would ask, "who cares?" The team is infuriating to watch, and hasn't really been an amazing product for a number of years, now.

At this point, I think it clear, without a doubt, that Mike Illitch has given Ken Holland clear and concise instructions, and KH is merely a subordinate following said instructions. Do you dispute that?

I dispute the idea that Ken Holland has had no choice but to sign the contracts that he has signed or that he has had no choice but to make poor decisions in improving the roster.

And at the end of the day, it just means that someone else is ALSO doing a bad job of making this team great. It doesn't make me feel better as a fan or any better about the future of the team. Are you optimistic about the future of the team based on what has transpired since 2009?

 

[Dotter]

Playoff sales have been discussed as a positive to the current model.


I would ask, "who cares?" The team is infuriating to watch, and hasn't really been an amazing product for a number of years, now.


I dispute the idea that Ken Holland has had no choice but to sign the contracts that he has signed or that he has had no choice but to make poor decisions in improving the roster.

And at the end of the day, it just means that someone else is ALSO doing a bad job of making this team great. It doesn't make me feel better as a fan or any better about the future of the team. Are you optimistic about the future of the team based on what has transpired since 2009?

It should, perhaps, make us feel uneasy that the DRWs have an ownership that is more concerned about the money over winning. But then again it is OUR OWN FAULTS that ownership is making money.

So maybe it's not even Mike Illitch's fault for being greedy, but rather our own fault for giving him our money to ice a bad product. Maybe if everyone band together and completely stopped buying tickets, merch, NHL center ice, stop going to events, stop paying across the nation, Mike Illitch will get the message that we don't accept the direction HE is choosing to take the team.

When he stops making money, he might make an adjustment. But right now, it's clear he is living off the past success... and he is living good.

That said, I am still going to pay my center ice bill and still go to games and would like to go to the joe atleast one more time this season. I'm part of the problem

 

[jkutswings]

It should, perhaps, make us feel uneasy that the DRWs have an ownership that is more concerned about the money over winning. But then again it is OUR OWN FAULTS that ownership is making money.

So maybe it's not even Mike Illitch's fault for being greedy, but rather our own fault for giving him our money to ice a bad product. Maybe if everyone band together and completely stopped buying tickets, merch, NHL center ice, stop going to events, stop paying across the nation, Mike Illitch will get the message that we don't accept the direction HE is choosing to take the team.

When he stops making money, he might make an adjustment. But right now, it's clear he is living off the past success... and he is living good.

That said, I am still going to pay my center ice bill and still go to games and would like to go to the joe atleast one more time this season. I'm part of the problem

I did. Three years ago.

 

[Syckle78]

I did. Three years ago.

I did,too. Thankfully I can criticize this team all I want without being a hypocrite. Yay!

 

[14ari13]

Except that Mike Babcock didn't want to coach the Wings. I don't know why that is so hard for people to understand. Perhaps he didn't want to coach them because he knew they were on the verge of becoming a dumpster fire.

I think babcock knew it, but maybe he also thought that his was was getting too old and that it would not work anyhow so he decided to move on. He saw his core players getting way too old and he knew there was none coming. I believe he would make the playoffs,but I would not put my money on it.

I don't disagree, but that wasn't the point of the post I was quoting. Dotter mocked someone for making baseless statements and calling them facts. Then did the exact same thing.

It's likely the playoff streak could lead to selling more tickets. Maybe it is a "huge selling point to earning big money." Without solid data to back it up, that's still not a fact. It's an opinion.

Who knows, maybe have a first overall draft pick on the team, like a young Steve Yzerman or a Connor McDavid could sell just as many tickets. Maybe it sells more merchandise. Maybe it gives an identity to a team that hasn't really had one since Lidstrom retired.

I think they know what they are doing. They make big money and most of the things is well planned. Sometimes it is luck, but mostly well planned.

The Red Wings will be worth well above $750 million within the next decade. Hell, they could even top 1 billion. There are currently 3 hockey franchises valued above a billion dollars and Chicago will likely hit that level the next time Forbes updates their list. Your quarter of a billion dollars in losses estimate was so obviously wrong. There isn't a single person who looked at what you were saying and agrees with you.

The cap floor is $54 million and the rent on JLA is $1 million. The Wings make $44 million or thereabouts in gate receipts and receive $1 billion in broadcasting rights from Fox Sports. Now that $1 billion is spread across three teams - Wings, Lions and Tigers - and is for a 10 year period. So if you average that out over 10 years and divide it into thirds that gives you another $33 million in revenue. The Wings also get revenue from radio but I couldn't find the terms for the radio deal.

So basically Mike Illitch has to spend $55 million to ice a hockey team and have an area for them to play in. He receives $77 million in ticket sales and broadcasting fees. Even if Red Wings ticket sales somehow drop to $30 million per year he can still go with a youth movement and hit the cap floor and still make money.

The only reason the Wings need to make the playoff to make money is because they are overpaying guys like Mule, Abby, Helm, Howard, et al to have the most expensive roster in the league. That makes sense when you are competing for Cups. It's dumb as hell when you have one of the 5-10 worst teams in the league. You also need to keep in mind we were lucky to make the playoffs last year, so this isn't a one year thing we can easily write off when Ken Holland starts selling hope this offseason.

It all makes sense, but you forget that you have to pay the price for success.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Fun stuff. If the Wings lose tomorrow and the Islanders win, Detroit will be in last place in the East.

 

[Reddwit]

Actually the October 2014 source you used was indeed economy seating.

The number, from your own source, that should be used is the FCI (fan cost index). You conveniently did NOT include that data in your post. Interesting.

Because that number is $307.54 per seat along with concession sales and properly averages out economy along with premium seating.

So 20,000 x $307.54 is $6.1 million per game x 41 games is about 250 million (otherwise known as a quarter a billion)

Dude, you need intensive reading comprehension lessons, stat.

The $307 figure comprises The Fan Cost Index™: the prices of four (4) average-price tickets, two (2) small draft beers, four (4) small soft drinks, four (4) regular-size hot dogs, parking for one (1) car, two (2) game
programs and two (2) least-expensive, adult-size adjustable caps. Footnotes matter. Understand what you're reading before you blabber on about it.

Not only are you WAY, WAY off on the sources you're citing, it didn't even occur to you that the $300 ticket price is ridiculously far off from the average ticket price!!

The average ticket price at the Joe? $62. The average premium price? $151. Are there vastly fewer premium tickets than average tickets? No ****. Therefore, the $88 price that TCNorthstars posted is most accurate.

So you admit there would be a huge loss? And the thing we are debating is how much this huge loss is? I'm just trying to understand your argument.

And I re-read the FCI on your source. I think you have to take $307.54 and divide it into a family of (4), which comes out to $76 per person like I originally said. That's using YOUR SOURCE.

Looks like my numbers were, in fact, right all along.

Wow, now you're straight up lying about what you said??

If ticket sales decrease to Coyote's prices and only half sellouts at the JLA (or new arena), then that proves Ilitch will go from $111 million per yr (just in ticket sales alone, not counting beer sales, merch and etc..) while spending $73 million cap. Drop that to $37 million per year while spending $53 million to cap floor.


That is a $76 million dollar yearly swing. Why do you think Mike Ilitch and co. wants to lose $76 million per year just to rebuild now? If the rebuild takes 3 years (being extremely generous, probably more like 5 to 7 years) it will cost him $228 million, yes a quarter of a billion dollars.

Riddle me this:
Wings ticket sales are going up. They are spending millions on a new arena. Why do they want to lose millions upon millions of dollars during this prime time? Business is good for the Red Wings organization. It is really good. Why throw that away with a tank?

That seems like **** poor business management to me.

helpful links
http://blog.tiqiq.com/2016/10/2013-1...t-prices-team/
https://www.capfriendly.com/faq

You claimed that the organization would lose $76 million a year if they tanked. You claimed those ****-poor Arizona-like attendance numbers would last for 3 years. Thus, you claimed the team would lose nearly a quarter of a billion dollars if they tanked in that time. That's what you said. Its all there. Link to your original post: Dotter's Quarter Billion Dollar Claim.

Illitch wouldn't even lose $200 million if he had **** poor attendance for a decade when it comes to gate receipts.

 

[jkutswings]

Fun stuff. If the Wings lose tomorrow and the Islanders win, Detroit will be in last place in the East.

It appears that 'Rebuild on the Fly' has gone from barely hovering, to taxiing, to crashing into the control tower.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Playoff sales have been discussed as a positive to the current model.


I would ask, "who cares?" The team is infuriating to watch, and hasn't really been an amazing product for a number of years, now.


I dispute the idea that Ken Holland has had no choice but to sign the contracts that he has signed or that he has had no choice but to make poor decisions in improving the roster.

And at the end of the day, it just means that someone else is ALSO doing a bad job of making this team great. It doesn't make me feel better as a fan or any better about the future of the team. Are you optimistic about the future of the team based on what has transpired since 2009?

More so than I was three years ago.

2013.... I thought we were done. We had less young talent with a pulse and even less time for them. We had a planned roster that included Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson, Todd Bertuzzi, and Carlo Colaiacovo and had a plan that they would get a very healthy chunk of PT. We had Z with a creaky back that looked like he might be completely cooked, Datsyuk out for half a year and as a result, Joakim Andersson in a top 6 role for quite a while.

Oh and this was fresh off of getting played by Ryan Suter, who we desperately needed. The Wings not only missed their guy, they got played for saps by basically negotiating the deal for Minnesota and coaxing another 8M out of the Wild for Suter.

I don't know what Mantha, Svech, Cholo, Larkin, Saarijavi, and Hronek end up being... but i like a team for the future that has them rather than a roster with the fossils listed earlier.

 

[Reddwit]

More so than I was three years ago.

2013.... I thought we were done. We had less young talent with a pulse and even less time for them. We had a planned roster that included Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson, Todd Bertuzzi, and Carlo Colaiacovo and had a plan that they would get a very healthy chunk of PT. We had Z with a creaky back that looked like he might be completely cooked, Datsyuk out for half a year and as a result, Joakim Andersson in a top 6 role for quite a while.

Oh and this was fresh off of getting played by Ryan Suter, who we desperately needed. The Wings not only missed their guy, they got played for saps by basically negotiating the deal for Minnesota and coaxing another 8M out of the Wild for Suter.

I don't know what Mantha, Svech, Cholo, Larkin, Saarijavi, and Hronek end up being... but i like a team for the future that has them rather than a roster with the fossils listed earlier.

I think you're conflating different seasons here.

In the 2012 off-season, we missed out on Suter. That year - 12/13, Datsyuk and Z played basically both the games, were above PPG, Cleary was still considered competent, Filppula and Franzen were coming off dominant years (and Franzen had a great one), Kronwall was coming in to his own, and Andy was nowhere near the top 6.

The following season is when Datsyuk missed half the season, Z's back issues flared up and had to be dealt with, and Andy had an increased role, but Franzen was still a stud, Alfie was added, who was coming off a solid year in Ottawa, and Dekeyser was full-time after a great NHL intro and playoff season ("We wouldn't have made the playoffs without him" - Babcock on Dekeyser).

Hate to tell people how they feel or felt, but I think you're misremembering on this one.

 

[Dotter]

The average ticket price at the Joe? $62. The average premium price? $151. Are there vastly fewer premium tickets than average tickets? No ****. Therefore, the $88 price that TCNorthstars posted is most accurate.

I estimated $76 per ticket. You agree with $88 posted by TCNorthstars. For argument's sake, we'll use that number since you agree with it and it better helps my point.

You claimed that the organization would lose $76 million a year if they tanked. You claimed those ****-poor Arizona-like attendance numbers would last for 3 years. Thus, you claimed the team would lose nearly a quarter of a billion dollars if they tanked in that time. That's what you said. Its all there. Link to your original post: Dotter's Quarter Billion Dollar Claim.

Illitch wouldn't even lose $200 million if he had **** poor attendance for a decade when it comes to gate receipts.

You forgot to mention the swing factor. But revenue sharing does muddy that up as ArGarBarGar pointed out. And there's so much more to be made than just gate receipts that you fail to point out.

Based on the information I provided, there is a yearly loss of $76 million swing. How revenue sharing works in this factor isn't available for us to calculate as we don't have access to the accounting.