Post-Game Talk: i don't like this team right now (Mod warning post #93)

[obey86]

Couldn't agree more. Drives me nuts how we employ people in front of the net post-Homer. He had a gift. He was amazing at what he did. Cleary couldn't do it. Franzen couldn't do it. Bert Sr. couldn't. Sheahan, Abby and Glen couldn't do it. In fact, they didn't even know where to start.

People used to talk about Vanek in the same breath as Homer when it came to deflections, but they aren't comparable. Being net-facing, outside the blue, waiting for the puck was not Homer's game. For my money, the only other guys I saw play Homer's game and play it well were Dino and Smyth.

Homer was a gift. He may not have been traditionally/conventionally talented, but there's a reason no one has even come close to doing what he did. He was so brilliant in his form and it pretty much because of his legacy that I've warmed up to Mantha so much - we finally have another guy that can do so much without touching the puck.

I love Homer, but to be fair it also helped him quite a bit that the team actually had players who get shots through to the net that he could tip or screen the goalie on. Nearly every time a defender on this team takes a long shot it's blocked and never even makes it through.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah, it surprises me in general how many teams move the puck so slowly with the man advantage. Even mediocre goalies stop shots when they have time to wind their watch and drink a cup of coffee.

 

[The Zermanator]

How far in advance would I have to tell you your dog would die, your house would explode, someone would steal your girlfriend and you'd get fired in order for you to prepare in such a manner as to experience no upheaval and/or no loss in overall happiness from those events?

Here's the point: there's no amount of preparation, there's no plan, there's no Machiavellian sequence of strategies... there's nothing that can shield a team from the upheaval and slide that losing franchise, HoF-level guy after franchise, HoF-level guy indefinitely brings with it.

If it's "just" losing Lidstrom to decline and departure, maybe. If it's "just" losing Datsyuk to decline, maybe. If it's "just" losing Bowman, maybe. But it wasn't. It was all of those things and more, loss after loss after loss year after year after year. And not just huge, elite pieces... but also integral second (or third) tier players like Draper, like Homer, like McCarty. Guys who had a cohesive value that went beyond their abilities.

By all rights Detroit's run should have ended around 2010. The wheels should have come off the franchise with Lidstrom declining and nearing retirement, the last bit of connective tissue to the greatness of the franchises run stretching and weakening. Like pretty much every other team after a run, Detroit should have sunk into the weeds for 3-4 years. But they didn't. They kept winning (a little).

At the end of the day, people are wrong about why they hate Holland. They don't hate him because they think he stinks. They hate him because he's been too good. If he were a worse GM they'd have been much happier with the state of the team (and by extension Holland himself) because the rebuild put off since 2011 would have already happened and be nearing completion, or perhaps already done.

I disagree. People have many legitimate reasons to heavily criticize Holland at this point.

Think about it, the mighty Ken Holland couldn't even get Stamkos on the phone. Think Stamkos talks to him 10 years ago? Me too. Those days are over. Ken Holland presided over one of the greatest (if not greatest) period of hockey this team has ever known. No doubt about that.

But things started sliding downhill for (some) reasons outside his control and he had no answers, none. That's the problem. He started defaulting to his basic playbook every year which was to patch holes with aging vets. Then he started signing them to deals either way pricier, or more often, way lengthier than reasonable.

Now we're in a position where we have the highest payroll in the league, with many of the contracts contributing the most to that on the books for many years, and what is there to show for that? We might be the first rebuild that spends to the cap every year. I guess that is a little impressive in its own right.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I disagree. People have many legitimate reasons to heavily criticize Holland at this point.

Think about it, the mighty Ken Holland couldn't even get Stamkos on the phone. Think Stamkos talks to him 10 years ago? Me too. Those days are over. Ken Holland presided over one of the greatest (if not greatest) period of hockey this team has ever known. No doubt about that.

But things started sliding downhill for (some) reasons outside his control and he had no answers, none. That's the problem. He started defaulting to his basic playbook every year which was to patch holes with aging vets. Then he started signing them to deals either way pricier, or more often, way lengthier than reasonable.

Now we're in a position where we have the highest payroll in the league, with many of the contracts contributing the most to that on the books for many years, and what is there to show for that? We might be the first rebuild that spends to the cap every year. I guess that is a little impressive in its own right.

It's really simple. Ken Holland once joked that he'd retire when Nick Lidstrom did. If he had his career would have been bulletproof. There was no really wrong move. Hell, even deciding to sign Franzen over Hossa was defensible given he had a cogent strategy: we are going to draft, develop and retain our own guys. It was the wrong decision, clearly, however it absolutely made sense. I'd actually argue that the majority of Red Wings fans supported that move. Hindsight has changed a lot of people's opinion, but hey, that's what message boards are for.

The problem is Ken Holland tried to stick with this philosopy of draft, develop, retain even when it was clear it was no longer viable. Hold onto first round draft picks that turn into Thomas McCollum, Brendan Smith, Riley Sheahan, etc instead of address clear needs with those draft picks. Over ripen, I mean develop, when it nearly cost you a playoff spot in 2013. Retain in the form of awful contracts to Mule - should have been a compliance buyout - Abby, Helm and Howard.

This is what is annoying people: Ken Holland has not been honest about how much of a failure this approach has been, and he's too old and too far down the rabbit hole of draft, develop, retain to fix the current state of the franchise.

To be fair there were plenty of people giving Holland atta boys when he was drafting McCollum, Smith, Sheahan, et al and plaudits for keeping Nyquist in Grand Rapids so he could resign Dan Cleary. The tide truly began to turn when Abby and Helm were extended. Like most pendulums, it was slow to gain momentum but once the momentum built the criticism became deafening.

I am extremely confident this is how history will view Ken Holland. He will no doubt make the HHoF and will be remembered fondly. The final 4-5 years of his legacy have been tarnished but 10-15 years from now very few will still complain, particularly if we are back to being good again by that time.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

How far in advance would I have to tell you your dog would die, your house would explode, someone would steal your girlfriend and you'd get fired in order for you to prepare in such a manner as to experience no upheaval and/or no loss in overall happiness from those events?

Here's the point: there's no amount of preparation, there's no plan, there's no Machiavellian sequence of strategies... there's nothing that can shield a team from the upheaval and slide that losing franchise, HoF-level guy after franchise, HoF-level guy indefinitely brings with it.

If it's "just" losing Lidstrom to decline and departure, maybe. If it's "just" losing Datsyuk to decline, maybe. If it's "just" losing Bowman, maybe. But it wasn't. It was all of those things and more, loss after loss after loss year after year after year. And not just huge, elite pieces... but also integral second (or third) tier players like Draper, like Homer, like McCarty. Guys who had a cohesive value that went beyond their abilities.

By all rights Detroit's run should have ended around 2010. The wheels should have come off the franchise with Lidstrom declining and nearing retirement, the last bit of connective tissue to the greatness of the franchises run stretching and weakening. Like pretty much every other team after a run, Detroit should have sunk into the weeds for 3-4 years. But they didn't. They kept winning (a little).

At the end of the day, people are wrong about why they hate Holland. They don't hate him because they think he stinks. They hate him because he's been too good. If he were a worse GM they'd have been much happier with the state of the team (and by extension Holland himself) because the rebuild put off since 2011 would have already happened and be nearing completion, or perhaps already done.

Really? Your argument is seriously that you know better why people hate Holland than they themselves know?

Your analogies have zero to do with the Wings and your premise is patently false. Obviously there is no replacing Nick Lidstrom. He is arguably one of the greatest D-men of all time. That doesn't mean that you throw up your hands and do nothing.

The Wings lost Datsyuk this season. Lidstrom retired 4 years ago. Draper retired 5 seasons ago (as if he was the lynchpin of Wings success anyway). Bowman retired 14 year ago. It's convenient to lump them together as if Holland was the victim of some series of devastating and unfortunate events but they happen to many franchises and took place over many years.

Forget that it's Nick Lidstrom. As a GM you know your #1 D-man is going to retire in a few years. You also know your #2 D-man will retire in a few years. You also know your #3/4 Dman in Stuart desperately wants to get back to California.

Where's the plan to replace those guys you 100% know won't be on your roster in the next few seasons?

It's not as complicated as you make it sound. I'm half surprised you didn't throw Vladdy in there to really pull at the heartstrings for all the things Holland has had to contend with.